BG Content Expansion (poll until Oct 7th)

[Lockonnow]

Rasael well all the server use this spell system ?

[PaulImposteur]

After reading Rasael's explanations, and being assured they're modular. I'm certainly happy to have all of the extensions added piece-meal. Like he said, they can be removed. Worse comes to worse, an extension is added that doesn't fit the climate of the server, and it is later removed.

I say go for it. The reward versus the risk, favors reward.

[Lockonnow]

what about the assassion prc it have spell book up to lvl 4 like the paladin

[Rasael]

Yes Locke, it would affect all spellcasters on the server.

Assassins and Blackguards would gain actual spellbooks instead the work-around feats they have currently. If you try the test module you will see those classes have a number of new spells from their D&D spellbooks.

[Lockonnow]

so when will this system be add to the server?

[Snarfy]

I played around with the module this morning and tried out some of the new feats, some of which are very cool, but the amount of things I found that I couldn't get to work lead me to believe this might not be ready for implementation just yet.

I made an assassin for kicks to try out the spellbook and to see what was added, and I ran into a few issues, most of which had to do with some of the new spells. Here's a breakdown of some of the things I ran into:

The addition of the disguise and escape artist skills.... YES. But at the same time, no. Neither skill was a class skill for rogue, assassin, or whirling dervish. Why not? Also, neither of these skills, or any others that were added, were available to select from the skill focus feats that Whirling dervish gets.

I REALLY like the idea of the level one(or was it 2nd?) assassin disguise spell(which gives you a pop up window to change your name), but had numerous issues with some of the other spells. There's a 3rd level spell... the name of which I cant remember something-blade, that is supposed to give a +6 to a weapon as well as some other effect, but no matter what I tried I couldn't get it to work. The level 3 and 4 spells that create an effect on your arrows also didn't work, but they apparently require a masterwork arrow to cast on, which wasn't available on the npc vendors. The spells added to the assassin spellbook also seem to heavily favor an archer build, but it was still nice to see an actual spellbook that you could pick and choose your spells. I don't know what the CL of those spells is exactly, but I can say that I got dispelled to the nines.

The spells I was most impressed with, firstly, was the darkness spell, and the changes to it(basically... anyone inside the darkness area is undetectable without ultravision[??] ... according to the description anyways), which meant that I could place a globe of darkness near a group of enemies and stand at the edge and stab the snot out of them without reprisal. The second spell that was pretty crazy was the 2nd level spell that creates a duplicate of your character(but without the offensive capabilities). Wow, talk about a great distraction to utilize sneak attacks. And that thing can take some punishment. For the first time ever I actually felt like I was playing a powerbuild as I mowed through devils and dragons >.> ... but that's not all.

The two free feats "lunge" and "trip" had me scratching my head a little. The former feat basically makes your opponent flatfooted(at least I think it does?) and opens it up for sneak attacks, while the description says it's best used at the end of your flurry. Well, let me tell you... when you come out of hiding with an expose weakness(and with epic precision), and then tap the lunge button, things die. Fast. This feat, to me at least, is like getting feint for free, the only difference is that it has a longer cooldown. TBH, this felt REALLY OP to me. As for the 'trip' feat, it being dex based made it quite easy to knock things over, I'd say I had a 60-75% success rate at tripping things with 30 dex. The amount of time that it took to attack again after a trip, however, didn't allow me to do so until the target was back on it's feet. Which is probably a good thing because that would have made things seem double OP. I also tried one of the new sneak feats, staggering strike(the toolbar icon was the multi-colored texture missing icon, btw). It seemed alright, but between obliterating things by exposing and lunging I found I had no reason to use it.

Off the top of my head, the only other thing I noticed that made my jaw flap open was when I death attack/paralyzed the boxer in the training room, and my following attacks automatically coup de grace'd him. Disregard this, as I was not able to coup de grace any of the monsters in the generator room in a similar fashion.

All in all, while I like some of the changes, I was flabbergasted by how un-gimpy it was to play the assassin... except when those balor lords hit me with insta-death spells(and then it just felt like it usually does playing a rogue ).

My end verdict, and my 3 cents, based on running into all these issues on a single build is that it definitely needs more polish and fine tuning.

** Edit - I just played some more with a different build, and I just wanted to add that the animations for the various attacks such as arterial strike, lunge, trip, low blow, etc, are very well done, and it's nice to see some variety in the combat moves performed.

[Rasael]

Hi Snarfy, I think you told it as it is. This topic is about setting a direction for where we want to take custom-content on BGTSCC.

The example module is representative for the included content and how it might work on the server. But parts of it certainly need more polish and balancing, and other parts aren't even hooked up yet (don't work, aren't enabled for public testing, or only partially work). It shows you the potential.

I am happy to hear that you found some of the unique adjustments

The disguise system isn't implemented in the public testing module. The spells do work in our internal QC module, and we do have class adjustments to grant the custom skills to stock classes, and a skill adjuster NPC. We didn't forget about them.

[Tsidkenu]

Hi Rasael.

I've been taking another look at the Magic Replacement system and I feel it still has a few things that need to be ironed out. A few of the spells and features are still a bit buggy.

Guards and Wards: The 'exploding' ward VFX follows the character around after the time of casting, even after resting.

I found some bug where Beltyn's Burning Blood and Enchanted Blade would not be used up once cast, and remain indefinately in the spellcaster's arsenal.

Enchanted Blade regularly fails to hit due to 'terrain blockage' despite there being only one enemy in open terrain.

Beltyn's Burning Blood also does not list enemy damage taken in the combat log (but the spell still deals damage to the target).

A multiclassed wizard that does not have wizard or as their first class cannot add new spells on level up, because the default class (class no. 1) for spell selection has priority, and being a non-caster class means that no spells can ever be picked (this was attempted with rogue/wiz/assassin/arcane trickster)

An epic level Spirit Shaman cannot cast spells. Spell slots can be memorized but an error appears which says that none are available to cast for all spell levels (despite having 20 CHA). Spellcasting seems to have worked up to level 20, though.

More to come.

And for the record im really looking forward to the new magic system once a few of the bumps are ironed out. More spell school love = good!

[Boddynock]

The example module is representative for the included content and how it might work on the server. But parts of it certainly need more polish and balancing, and other parts aren't even hooked up yet (don't work, aren't enabled for public testing, or only partially work). It shows you the potential.

Isn't it a bit premature for any sort of voting then? I am glad for the option to take a look at what may be in the pipeline, but who in good faith can vote on a ten page bill when they can only read the first page?

[Rasael]

The example module is representative for the included content and how it might work on the server. But parts of it certainly need more polish and balancing, and other parts aren't even hooked up yet (don't work, aren't enabled for public testing, or only partially work). It shows you the potential.

Isn't it a bit premature for any sort of voting then? I am glad for the option to take a look at what may be in the pipeline, but who in good faith can vote on a ten page bill when they can only read the first page?

The idea is to vote for a commitment. If there is no commitment to head a certain direction then why develop anything in that direction?

I am happy to develop this content further for BGTSCC, but I'd want a commitment. If there is no commitment I will finish it for the NWN2 and leave it at that, for singleplayer modules and other servers to pick up. I will do that in any case.

[Steve]

Luna asked whether the magic replacement system could be implemented without messing up existing characters, and whether it could be easily reverted.

The answer to both questions is Yes. It doesn't mess up anything, that's why I call it a system-extension. And its easy to revert, it could just be taken down from a server if it causes too many issues, and then the stock magic system will pick up where things were left off.

Maybe it's me, but I don't think you see how a new spell system will dramatically change how Casters are made and played. How would a current lvl 30 caster of any type—especially those with a fixed spellbook like the Sorcerer—get to benefit from the new Spell System? Would they simply receive a 1-time spellbook change? What happens when Players RCR to take advantage of this new Spell System, but then there are bugs, and then those bugs make it unplayable, and the System is reverted to the Original...how to Builds go back from an expanded spell book to a more limited one?

I think if you plan on development, then a more detailed White Paper from which the Player base—that is voting on this—can critically review and understand fully what they're voting for, is necessary to provide.

Because otherwise, all the reactions to those posting here describe many things not "working" to expectation. And with that, alone, comes uncertainty.

Furthermore:

More spells
I've seen you make new spells alreaady, like Deez' Shadow Barrier or whatevreitscalled. Are new spells just far too much of a pain to code in the Original Spell System?

new metamagic(s)
This sounds really great...but what are they? Are they based off of D&D 3.5e?

new spellbooks
What is wrong with the old spell books, except limitation of expansion? Size, quantity, what exactly?

dispel uses casterlevel
I believe this fix can be done without a fully New Spell System. It could be done today, if the Will was there.

selectable opposition schools
And this cannot be changed with the Original Spell System?

vastly expanded spell radials
Does this mean the UI interface for spell casting?


tons of other magic related features.
I'd like to know exactly what those features are, how they work, and so.

Though my opinion probably doesn't matter much, I'm with Deathgrowl on how the UI seems far less "useable" than the Original. The Hotbar issue is not cool. Some aesthetic improvements would be helpful, overall (but maybe no improvements can actually be made on this point?!?).

Like BMD stated, there is also the HUGE WORRY that a New Spell System will create many bugs or silly issues to be fixed, and BGTSCC isn't really moving that fast on updates/improvements/additions as of late.

Your point about commitment is apt, Rasael.

[Rasael]

I think if you plan on development, then a more detailed White Paper from which the Player base—that is voting on this—can critically review and understand fully what they're voting for, is necessary to provide.

Because otherwise, all the reactions to those posting here describe many things not "working" to expectation. And with that, alone, comes uncertainty.

I'm not selling.... take it or leave it (as it were). You won't get any guarantees for a game that's not supported by its Publisher or developers. Whichever way we go it will always be by ourselves.

The idea is to vote for a commitment. If there is no commitment to head a certain direction then why develop anything in that direction?

I am happy to develop this content further for BGTSCC, but I'd want a commitment. If there is no commitment I will finish it for the NWN2 and leave it at that, for singleplayer modules and other servers to pick up. I will do that in any case.

Maybe it's me, but I don't think you see how a new spell system will dramatically change how Casters are made and played. How would a current lvl 30 caster of any type—especially those with a fixed spellbook like the Sorcerer—get to benefit from the new Spell System? Would they simply receive a 1-time spellbook change? What happens when Players RCR to take advantage of this new Spell System, but then there are bugs, and then those bugs make it unplayable, and the System is reverted to the Original...how to Builds go back from an expanded spell book to a more limited one?

This was all thought of already. If the system is enabled on a server the existing characters will get a one time re-pick to fill their new spellbook.

New and existing characters will also continue to pick spells with the default system, ensuring that a revert can also take place. Players are given messages informing them about this, and why it works that way. If it is eventually decided never to revert then this redundancy can be disabled.

More spells
I've seen you make new spells alreaady, like Deez' Shadow Barrier or whatevreitscalled. Are new spells just far too much of a pain to code in the Original Spell System?

You can't have more spells because the game crashes if you learn more than 255. We have a very ugly, and mostly not-working, work-around that I wrote to deal with that.

The new system doesn't crash and can handle practically an infinite amount of spells. Plus it could let you pick spells to remove manually. I've also mentioned that it fixes issues with dissapearing and duplicating spell slots.

new metamagic(s)
This sounds really great...but what are they? Are they based off of D&D 3.5e?

Ofcourse. There a ranged one to transform Touch spells into ranged touch spells, and there's Sacred and Vile metamagic. Others could be made, these are just proof-of-concept.

new spellbooks
What is wrong with the old spell books

I presume you know that Blackguards and Assassins don't actually have any spell books. They have a work-around via feats because the developer thought it was too much of a hassle to make books for them.

The new magic system lets us give spell books to all classes that should have one. Hence "new" spellbooks.

dispel uses casterlevel
I believe this fix can be done without a fully New Spell System. It could be done today, if the Will was there.

I haven't said otherwise. I've said it can go in whenver. I can't think of a better time than with a new magic system and free-spell-repick for everyone, though.

selectable opposition schools
And this cannot be changed with the Original Spell System?

You can't select your opposition school in stock NWN2, no.

If you mean if it could work stand-alone then yes, but again: I can't think of a better time than with a new magic system and free-spell-repick for everyone.

vastly expanded spell radials
Does this mean the UI interface for spell casting?

This means the options menu you get when you cast a spell with sub-options. It can't be implemented stand-alone, it requires the new magic system.

tons of other magic related features.
I'd like to know exactly what those features are, how they work, and so.

There's no guarantee they would go on the server, just that they would be up for discussion if the time comes. You could look at true seeing, darkness, invisibility, warlocks, spirit shamans.

Like BMD stated, there is also the HUGE WORRY that a New Spell System will create many bugs or silly issues to be fixed, and BGTSCC isn't really moving that fast on updates/improvements/additions as of late.

It's already been established that a quick revert back to stock NWN2 is perfectly possible. There's no reason to worry, especially not HUGELY.

[Thorsson]

The question really is whether the proposed new systems are:

1. NWN2; and
2. D&D 3.5.

You might argue about the importance of either, but that's what the majority of people still playing NWN2 signed up for.

The more you move away from base the greater the barrier to entry.

[Steve]

Thanks for clearing many things up, Rasael.

I fully support your ideas to improve upon NWN2, but I still hesitate, as Thorsson alludes to, how well the New Spell System—at least of all the possible extensions—integrates into the NWN2 we know and love.

If any of these extensions do get a majority Yes vote, and it is supported to apply/test them on BGTSCC by Luna, then I just sincerely hope you, Luna, QC and Players can work out the commitment needed to see this succeed, on Server 2. And once that is finally full-proofed and working to satisfaction, it is released to the actual "play" Server.

[MopKnight]

The question really is whether the proposed new systems are:

1. NWN2; and
2. D&D 3.5.

You might argue about the importance of either, but that's what the majority of people still playing NWN2 signed up for.

The more you move away from base the greater the barrier to entry.

The importance of both is miniscule. From a mechanical, technical, numerical stability and even a CRPG point of view, DnD5 is so far beyond 3.5 that it isn't even worth playing anymore. Hell, Pathfinder was already ahead of 3.5. DnD5 solved the skill system inflation, overwrought combat mechanics, low level spell caster weakness and the CoDzilla problem in one fell swoop.

If we had access to the source code of NWN2, the best thing this server could do would be to update, effective immediately, to DnD5's ruleset. It's a simpler, more effective, more efficient, less easily powergamed system which brings the heavy buff classes down to the levels of their peers while making the game more interesting to play.

Since we do not have that opportunity, I'll take what I can get. Rules lawyers be damned.