Sneak matters: Epic Precision

[chad878262]

10d6 sounds more reasonable to me Chad, since id preffer if it was exclusively for very sneak oriented builds, as opposed to the semi variants out there.

I am still inclined to say no though, I dont like opening up every single unique abbility of the classes to others. I think its a huge charm factor and it demands sacrifices build wise to obtain this feat, like many others and that is why these character build mechanics are so intriguing, because you cant have it all.

To be clear, I'm against opening up EP...at all. Even the example I proposed is along the lines of bane of enemies against sneak immune and possibly better so I'm not sold on anything. I was simply offering up an alternative to the thought of opening epic precision carte Blanche.

[matelener]

I am against this suggestion because it will provide a power boost and allow more powerbuilding. In specific:

- Fighter/assassin archer with manyshot will do full DA damage against crit immune
- Rogue will be able to powerbuild more, since they will only need 13rogue levels in order to get all rogue feats ( epic presicion, epic dodge and prereqs). More importantly, rogue/assassins with epic dodge will be able to get a 4th PRC. Currently it is not possible because the 3b20 rule unless they delay hips for level 30
- EDM fighters and bards with feint, wil lget more damage against crit immunes
- Wizards/AT will get sneak damage against sneak immune, ontop of their lvl9 spells, epic spells etc.

Clearly it is a powerboost but is it needed? I havent heard a reason of why such change is required. Of course one build is not going to be 100% efficient against some types of enemies, that is the nature of this game. If one feels that sneak immune mobs will be an issue for their character, they should build around it.

1. Fix for death attack is definetely needed, manyshot DA is stupidly OP.

2. Crippling strike is a fantastic feat for rogues. It will be a struggle to cut a build to 13 rogue levels instead of picking Crippling Strike (which allows rogues to easily grind the Frost Giant King or the Yuanti Queen).

3. By putting a reasonable SA requirement most of those would be weeded out. Something around 8d6 which would allow to take it earlier in the epics on high SA builds.

4. Rogue gishes are not that strong at all and I can't remember when the last time was I've seen one.

5. I can give you tens of builds 100% efficient against all types of enemies and you're familiar with most of them. Also, I'd like to reiterate that Epic Precision doesn't make you an undead grinding power house. It makes you 50% efficient against them. Sneak immune creatures remain a weak point even for characters with Epic Precision.

[mrm3ntalist]

I am against this suggestion because it will provide a power boost and allow more powerbuilding. In specific:

- Fighter/assassin archer with manyshot will do full DA damage against crit immune
- Rogue will be able to powerbuild more, since they will only need 13rogue levels in order to get all rogue feats ( epic presicion, epic dodge and prereqs). More importantly, rogue/assassins with epic dodge will be able to get a 4th PRC. Currently it is not possible because the 3b20 rule unless they delay hips for level 30
- EDM fighters and bards with feint, wil lget more damage against crit immunes
- Wizards/AT will get sneak damage against sneak immune, ontop of their lvl9 spells, epic spells etc.

Clearly it is a powerboost but is it needed? I havent heard a reason of why such change is required. Of course one build is not going to be 100% efficient against some types of enemies, that is the nature of this game. If one feels that sneak immune mobs will be an issue for their character, they should build around it.

1. Fix for death attack is definetely needed, manyshot DA is stupidly OP.

2. Crippling strike is a fantastic feat for rogues. It will be a struggle to cut a build to 13 rogue levels instead of picking Crippling Strike (which allows rogues to easily grind the Frost Giant King or the Yuanti Queen).

3. By putting a reasonable SA requirement most of those would be weeded out. Something around 8d6 which would allow to take it earlier in the epics on high SA builds.

4. Rogue gishes are not that strong at all and I can't remember when the last time was I've seen one.

5. I can give you tens of builds 100% efficient against all types of enemies and you're familiar with most of them. Also, I'd like to reiterate that Epic Precision doesn't make you an undead grinding power house. It makes you 50% efficient against them. Sneak immune creatures remain a weak point even for characters with Epic Precision.

Still, I haven't heard why such change is necessary? Why you want to ask the devs to make this suggestion happen and all the work surrounding it?
Why stop there though? Why not make Favored enemies and Bane of enemies available to all? Why not d the same for every unique feat a class or race has?

For me there is no reason to do so.

Just to answer your points
1. It should be fixed, regardless the implementation of your suggestion. But it also adds to the workload needed to make this happen.
2. It is fantastic, yes. But now, you have to take it order to get epic precision and for that you need 16 levels of rogue before level 27-29 in order to get epic dodge. Without the prereq you don't have to take it, giving you more options to powerbuild
3. Tells us, what you have in mind? Which build is the one that you would like to have that currently you are not able to?
4. Anything with lvl9 spells and epic spells and infinite damage through feats like
5. That's the point. If you feel that you need t have a very efficient build against undead, go with the tens of builds 100% efficient against all types of enemies.

[thids]

I played quite a few either sneak reliant builds without EP on the server and I never minded being near useless against sneak immune opponents. I knew what I was getting into and I bit the bullet. I simply avoided them and that's all, it's certainly not the end of the world or something that should definitely stop you from playing a build (even though you should probably think about if it's worth it).


I still think that the best way to open EP a bit more would be to introduce the Dark Lantern class and let it have crippling strike at level 7 or 9 while at the same time adding hips as a choice of extra rogue feat. That opens up a large number of possibilities for sneak builds, while it still forces you to make choices and sacrifices.

[matelener]

Why did I propose this change? To give incentive to pick some of the PRCs with sneak attack without having to take 10 levels of rogue (and it doesn't take any power away from rogue builds). It's not about raising the top performance of a build, it's about partially mitigating a weakness - lifting a bit up the bottom performance. No other class has disadvantage this big, rangers againt non favoured enemies don't go from 100% dps to 0%, mages don't deal with things completely immune to magic etc.

I haven't considered how much dev work it would take and since I'm not a dev I can only guess (would copying a feat be that work intensive?). But with so strong objection from the QC I see the idea is unlikely to happen. At least we've had some discussion.

[mrm3ntalist]

I still think that the best way to open EP a bit more would be to introduce the Dark Lantern class and let it have crippling strike at level 7 or 9 while at the same time adding hips as a choice of extra rogue feat. That opens up a large number of possibilities for sneak builds, while it still forces you to make choices and sacrifices.

Agreed, Dark Lantern will be the simplest and most "structured" way of giving crippling strike in a different way. Also it is always fun to add new PRCs.

Is Dark Lantern a PRC you would like to have both regarding crippling strike and as anew rogue PRC?

Why did I propose this change? To give incentive to pick some of the PRCs with sneak attack without having to take 10 levels of rogue (and it doesn't take any power away from rogue builds). It's not about raising the top performance of a build, it's about partially mitigating a weakness - lifting a bit up the bottom performance. No other class has disadvantage this big, rangers againt non favoured enemies don't go from 100% dps to 0%, mages don't deal with things completely immune to magic etc.

How is the damage of rangers with no FE undead, any different from the damage a rogue gets against undead with no epic precision? A dex ranger will have the same damage with a dex rogue, while an STR ranger will have the same damage with an STR rogue. They are the same regarding this. I dnt know why you say otherwise

BTW you can still pick PRCS with sneak attacks without Rogue10. It is that you wont be able to SA sneak immune, therefore you need to accommodate for that. More STR, more INT and Combat insight etc.

The way I understand it is that you ask for a feat for everyone with some SA dice to be able to damage against undead. There is no reason for that to happen and goes in a different way with the decisions that QC already made, such as the Ruin feat on weapons

I haven't considered how much dev work it would take and since I'm not a dev I can only guess (would copying a feat be that work intensive?). But with so strong objection from the QC I see the idea is unlikely to happen. At least we've had some discussion.

I don't speak for the QC, just myself. Anything the QC decides happens in the private forums.

[Lag]

I still think that the best way to open EP a bit more would be to introduce the Dark Lantern class and let it have crippling strike at level 7 or 9 while at the same time adding hips as a choice of extra rogue feat. That opens up a large number of possibilities for sneak builds, while it still forces you to make choices and sacrifices.

I really dig this idea. Just playing around with it on the builder I can't see any reason this would be exploitable. Interesting idea. Even the idea of hips as a feat is going to make people freak though. Brace yourself.

[matelener]

Dark lantern sounds great. It could be made more exclusive by adding some feat requirement.

[Face]

With leveling....Its hard to kill stuff if you cant hit the monsters. And i gues UMD helps a bit but what about folks who dont want to invest 25 points in UMD?

Besides all the prc's that gell wel with rogue are not on this server or maybe im just a (#2) builder. so evry one and his mom gows rogue ib fighter assassin...

My lvl23 rogue has an AB of 28 on the builder. Up to this level I didnt have a problem hitting mobs even on areas with slightly higher CR than my characters ( with no UMD use ). Is there a specific area in which you have a problem?

23 levels of rogue or a splash also duel wield or 1h or ranged?

[Ithilan]

Wont Dark Lantern just stir people even further away from rogue heavy builds? I know the topic is not about rogue issues, but you are basically giving the EP feat away here in a package with HIPS and Slippery Mind, plus full SA progression. Rogues would be a wastemans class beyond the fact its a core class and these others are not.

It would have to be reworked from its current state the way I see it, to fit into BG.

[mrm3ntalist]

With leveling....Its hard to kill stuff if you cant hit the monsters. And i gues UMD helps a bit but what about folks who dont want to invest 25 points in UMD?

Besides all the prc's that gell wel with rogue are not on this server or maybe im just a (#2) builder. so evry one and his mom gows rogue ib fighter assassin...

My lvl23 rogue has an AB of 28 on the builder. Up to this level I didnt have a problem hitting mobs even on areas with slightly higher CR than my characters ( with no UMD use ). Is there a specific area in which you have a problem?

23 levels of rogue or a splash also duel wield or 1h or ranged?

At level 23 it has 13lvls of rogue. It will end up having 20levels of rogue. Dual wielding of course. Still, in which area you have trouble with your rogue?

[matelener]

I still think that the best way to open EP a bit more would be to introduce the Dark Lantern class and let it have crippling strike at level 7 or 9 while at the same time adding hips as a choice of extra rogue feat. That opens up a large number of possibilities for sneak builds, while it still forces you to make choices and sacrifices.

Agreed, Dark Lantern will be the simplest and most "structured" way of giving crippling strike in a different way. Also it is always fun to add new PRCs.

Is Dark Lantern a PRC you would like to have both regarding crippling strike and as anew rogue PRC?

Why did I propose this change? To give incentive to pick some of the PRCs with sneak attack without having to take 10 levels of rogue (and it doesn't take any power away from rogue builds). It's not about raising the top performance of a build, it's about partially mitigating a weakness - lifting a bit up the bottom performance. No other class has disadvantage this big, rangers againt non favoured enemies don't go from 100% dps to 0%, mages don't deal with things completely immune to magic etc.

How is the damage of rangers with no FE undead, any different from the damage a rogue gets against undead with no epic precision? A dex ranger will have the same damage with a dex rogue, while an STR ranger will have the same damage with an STR rogue. They are the same regarding this. I dnt know why you say otherwise

BTW you can still pick PRCS with sneak attacks without Rogue10. It is that you wont be able to SA sneak immune, therefore you need to accommodate for that. More STR, more INT and Combat insight etc.

An STR ranger has PWTF, high AB, a companion with great DMG, most likely FE against undead so his not-FE is likely to be prone to crits and without DR. There is no comparison to an STR non-EP sneak.

Dex rangers are a bit worse than STR rangers but still, they are way better than non-EP sneaks in those situations.

[Face]

pretty mutch evry where from level 1 to 20 so i gave up and made a ranged sneaker.
like are there feats to take or something besides the expert tactic one?

Or are there realy good weapons besides the sneak dagger and short sword?

[mrm3ntalist]

An STR ranger has PWTF, high AB, a companion with great DMG, most likely FE against undead so his not-FE is likely to be prone to crits and without DR. There is no comparison to an STR non-EP sneak.

Dex rangers are a bit worse than STR rangers but still, they are way better than non-EP sneaks in those situations.

That was fun. Are you comparing a Ranger30 with a Rogue30? Then yes, ranger has it better... hands down.

What you deliberately avoid to say is that in order for an STR ranger to get PTWF he needs 21lvls of the class and in order for the companion to do some damage ( on a ranger great? Really? ) you need all 30 levels. Don't tell me a multiclass rogue ( even with no epic precision ) will be far behind damage wise, but will also have better defenses. Lets say a Rogue13/F12/SD5 for example with no epic precision. Are you telling me it will have less damage than a ranger30 with no FEs? Anyway, we are getting off topic...

pretty mutch evry where from level 1 to 20 so i gave up and made a ranged sneaker.
like are there feats to take or something besides the expert tactic one?

Or are there realy good weapons besides the sneak dagger and short sword?

Rogues have some difficulty till they get hips. Once they get it, it is much easier. The hide, attack, runaway, hide again and repeat, might be more time consuming, but it works very well. I am very surprised to hear that you struggle everywhere.

[thids]

Is Dark Lantern a PRC you would like to have both regarding crippling strike and as anew rogue PRC?

I would personally like it any way, as it makes those painful non rogue assassin builds that delay hips to at least level 21 (since hide and ms isn't a class skill) more attractive. You trade away DA and assassin spells for hips at level 14. I'm up for anything that lessens the number of assassin builds on the server. As for crippling strike, it just seems the most convenient way to do it, if ep is to be opened to more than exclusively 10(+) rogues. You have to invest 9 levels, not much less than with a rogue. I can't remember what the conclusion of that huge thread a few years ago was, where someone was proposing hips for rogues, but I think that is also something that should be revisited. Anything to get out of the rogue21/assassin9, rogue16/ib5/assassin9 and rogue/shadowdancer rut that the sneaks are in on BG. I'm not sure what the situation with archer builds would be in regards to DL, don't have the time to fiddle with those right now. But I think it would only concern OOBI builds, as picking DL over Assassin on an archer right now, thus losing DA manyshots, would be a bad choice.