Sneak matters: Epic Precision

[matelener]

Hey, I'd like to raise an issue regarding the current state of sneaks where non-rogue sneaks seem to be almost non-existant. The reason why I think people feel limited to the rogue class is because of how prevalent Sneak Attack Immunity is on the server and the only way to bypass it is through the Epic Precision feat (it halves the sneak dice against sneak immune mobs) that is available only to epic characters with at least 10 rogue levels. Whereas weapon masters can still cut through undeads with their basic damage, sneaks suffer much more - their damage drops to single digits (in many cases reduced to 0 because of the DR).

And based on that notion, two ideas:

- Make Epic Precision available to anyone - the rogue class would have still plenty to offer and epic characters of other classes focusing on sneak attacks wouldn't be so hindered

- Introduce an item property that would work just like Epic Precision, make all types of weapons with that property available at vendors - this way rogues and other sneaks could tackle on undeads in pre-epic levels

On another note, something could be done with the Death Attack bug. In its operating form it allows the whole Death Attack dice to be retained if the assasin has Epic Precision. Perhaps an easy solution would be to replace Death Attack with Sneak Attack and script the paralyze effect as a standalone feat. This would fix also the problem with overpowered damage of a Manyshot Death Attack (that is mulitplied by Manyshot unlike the regular Sneak Attack).

What do you guys think about it?

[mrm3ntalist]

In similar cases in the past, the team was reluctant to make rogue only feats available to all. Basically if you want Sneak attack specialisation, in order to SA undead, you need 10 levels of rogue. It makes sense too.

[chad878262]

There are other ways to get damage for non-rogue sneaks. Rangers get bane of enemies, arcane trickster gets magic damage, etc. Is there a specific build type your thinking of that you feel doesn't work? In most cases allowing epic precision would be op. Monk/assassin for instance can already do some pretty good damage.

[matelener]

There are other ways to get damage for non-rogue sneaks. Rangers get bane of enemies, arcane trickster gets magic damage, etc. Is there a specific build type your thinking of that you feel doesn't work? In most cases allowing epic precision would be op. Monk/assassin for instance can already do some pretty good damage.

Could you please give an example of the epic precision on a non-rogue being OP? I see this feat as a consolation prize rather than a power spike. It makes you retain half of your damage against certain enemies for the cost of an epic feat.

Any character thats combat is mostly based on sneak attacks (above 8d6 dice) and doesn't have Epic Precision will have a terrible time in many areas. Obviously, builds like 20 monk (unarmed) / 10 assasin or 21 ranger / 9 assasin are not what I had in mind and they fare okay-ish without Epic Precision (however they wouldn't turn OP if they got it and Death Attack was fixed). I meant concepts involving PRCs with sneak dices such as Wilderness Stalker, Whirling Dervish, Ghost-faced killer, Black Flame Zealot, Arcane trickster, Daggerspell Mage etc. that are currently underused.

What I propose is that a common creature immunity shouldn't render a character completely useless. I think that's why item properties like Death's Ruin / Nature's Ruin exist in OC and why in 4e and 5e the rules on Precision Damage have changed.

[AC81]

What about a Str-based fullplate fighter that uses high DC slams to get attacks of opportunity. No rogue needed - let's add assassin for hips!

No way to your suggestion. Epic Precision should be rogue only. Undead and other similar creatures should be hard to find critical spots on.

[matelener]

What about a Str-based fullplate fighter that uses high DC slams to get attacks of opportunity. No rogue needed - let's add assassin for hips!

No way to your suggestion. Epic Precision should be rogue only. Undead and other similar creatures should be hard to find critical spots on.

I fail to understand this example. He can slam and sneak attack already on the server. With epic precision he would be able to Sneak Attack an undead from hips (with his horrid ms/hide) but he wouldn't be able to slam it because it's immune to stuns/dazes (those immunities often go in pair with crit/sneak one). With that said, what's his actual power gain? He's going to grind now undead with 50% of his sneak dices instead of bashing living things and doing 100% damage?

Undeads do have bodies and anatomy. A precise strike at a particular part of an undead like the head or the spine might do more damage than a slash to the chest. Maybe the technique to deal such blows wouldn't be known and available to most but to someone who has 8d6+ SA and an epic level?

[AC81]

My point is that you're taking the one feat that rogues have left and you're selling it. With other classes you can get all their other 'main' feats. Epic dodge, improved evasion, defensive roll, trapfinding. You give away epic precision ( which is their main feat ) what is the incentive to take more than 3 levels of rogue??? With my build example I was implying that with rogue being redundant, that frees up another class that can be taken.
Is it so hard to accept the fact that without epic precision a PC will not be as effective in melee vs sneak immunes?

[Blackman D]

the rogue specialists feats are highly unlikely to be opened up to just anyone

[Thorsson]

We tried to get Dark Lantern in before, probably amended, to open up other sneak options; but as you can see, minds are closed.

[Boddynock]

The problem as I see it is two fold... One, undead and other sneak/crit immune baddies are very prevalent on our server, and even more so in events. And you can take, for example, 19 lvls of rogue like classes (9 rogue/10 assassin) and not qualify... And assassins are arguably MORE adept at finding enemies critical areas (death attack anyone?)... Perhaps the qualifications for Epic Precision should be Crippling Strike OR a combination of Death Attack and Hide in Plain Sight. (As an example, the point is some combination that represents a continuing dedication to leveling as sneak attacking characters...)

My main point is there are a few Rogue like PrCs that are even more focused on combat and still focused on sneak attack and don't get this very combat oriented feat. (Assassin and Ghost-faced Killer come to mind, both of which are still stealth based combatants that use sneak attack as a primary damage source, one of whom I have already said is even more specialized in sneak attacks than a rogue...)

I have a very very fun build right now that is basically useless in our current server plot...and doesn't even qualify for epic precision despite a very heavy investment in Stealth Classes and sneak attack damage. (And for the record, he will have more than 3 lvls of Rouge for the sneak attack dice and skills...)

Open up the feat some, allow for some more build flexibility for PvE stealthers... Perhaps the Req should be Rogue 10, or Asn 8 and 2d6 sneak attack, or Ghost-Faced Killer 8 and 2d6 sneak attack. That way the required investment is still one less level for pure rouges, but other builds can still, you know...be useful for a great deal of content...

[Ithilan]

Making it an assasin 8 requirement, is to be honest, redicueless. Noone going into the assasin class is ever going to take less than 8 levels and most wont take more either, if anything then make it a total sneak dice requirement, like 12d6 or something to make sure only characters heavilly invested into sneaking qualify.

But I am generally opposed to this, as someone else said, all the special rogue feats are obtainable through other classes, except for Epic Precision, it is the one last unique thing about rogues and I think it should stay as it is. Else we will have a petition to change weapons mastery to have the same requirements as ranged mastery and everyone will have 4 fighter levels.

Very clear no from me, there are already a million characters on the server with 3 rogue levels for Expose Weakness, if you somehow open up for epic precision without ensuring people are really commited to this build type, I fear the assasin in all of our characters will shine through

Edit: In regards to the enemy types usually encountered, there really arent a lot of sneak immune and undead creatures on the server in comparisson to targets subsebtible to being sneaked, so that wont help you in court.
Events are largely focussed on the Undead pressence on the Coast at the moment yes, but that is a constantly shifting element and should not be basis for feat requirements

[Boddynock]

So what if people only take three levels of rouge and then get epic precision? So what if people only take fighter to eight? Or swash to 5? Or cleric to three for the domain powers (Istishia anyone?). Your argument it based on the premise that you are taking something away from the rogue... Yet the rogue still has it too so that doesn't hold up. If the argument is that this is the one thing that the rogue still holds that makes it unique... Well opening up that option to more classes opens up the opportunity for more unique builds. So the availability of unique and viable builds on the server increases as a whole, not decreases.

Rogues don't actually lose anything by making this change, but the server stands to gain something.

And you are right, the number of sneak and crit immune mobs is less than the number of not immune ones. But one hill giant cheiftan can ruin a sneaks day, despite the fact that they are the minority spawn in the area...

And... I have played on this server a long time, as have you from the look of it... And Undead have always been a heavy favorite for events.

TL:DR This change actually takes nothing away from rogues, simply increases the number of fully PvE viable rogue based builds...

[Ithilan]

Well the point is exactly that it is taking something unique away from the rogue, which a lot of other PrCs have done in the past, but this is one of their very last unique features. And what you are suggesting, though it does open up for more builds, it does not really contribute to uniqueness.

I dont think I can think of any game, of the top of my head, where unique class features were made accesible to others, that benefitted from it. I dont know what the future work is for BGTSCC, but I think it is important to maintain these unique requirements for very specialist feats.

The point about feats that are so heavilly class level dependant, like this and the fighter feats, is that you gave up something else to gain this. If that suddenly becomes available at the cost of a lot of less, it defeats the purpose.

I love the level 18 fighter feat that gives you both attack bonus and armor class and I love it because it is so unique. I personally think that a unique touch to each class is what really makes them intriguing.. and the lore of course that affects the RP

Edit: Felt like saying unique once more.
From a different perspective, imagine if theres was a class that has some of the same mechanics, but different strengths and features compared to say an Annointed Knight, but through this class you could obtain d4 elemental damage at 3rd level. Who would make an Annointed Knight to level 10 then outside of very strict self-monitored RP builds? It would not take the uniqueness away from the class, but it would make it redundant in comparisson.

[Thorsson]

Uniqueness, schmooniqueness. Why is a class having a unique feat good?

Even if it is, let's have a new Feat, "Epic Incision". This allows you to get half sneak damage (or maybe two thirds). Rogue still has their unique feat, so everything's copacetic.

[Blackman D]

there may be a good number of undead areas but they are also easily avoided too

assassin is actually a horrible example to try to reinforce your point because death attack, while in fact is a death effect, takes 3 rounds for such an effect (pnp) and regardless undead are immune to death effects

so an assassin wouldnt even get half the damage they would just get nothing, but of course in a pnp sense we are talking save or die which doesnt work on undead

you really cant use other sneak type classes to try to argue in favor of opening the feat because it really is only sneak attack, crippling strike then epic precision to get half sneak attack on crit immune, it is a base structure and other sneak type PrCs only build off of it if its used, it is not required tho obviously

and whats the fascination with undead? there are other crit immune mobs why pick only on undead? there are a lot of undead because there really is a lot of different types of undead compared to anything else crit immune - elementals? theres 4 types... then different age groups if you really want to count that... but undead theres way more than 4 different types and most all of them are on the server, so is it just because they are the biggest group or what? the falling back on the undead issue instead of just sayin crit immune is confusin me a bit as if there is some other problem, i mean of course they are gonna be favored in events when you are fighting necromancers

but as far as messing up a rogues day, half the server will mess up a rogues day i have three i know, all different play styles and all still a pain in the ass to level because they were sneaks

the easiest one is if you are an AA because you really dont even need to sneak with AA it becomes more of a back up/fail safe, AA is strong enough without sneak attack damage