Control undead

[Calen]

It is an evil spell. Summon Undead spells in Libris Mortis have the Evil descriptor. And normal conjuration spells that are used to summon evil creatures gain the Evil descriptor.

You are taking it out of context.
It was brought in context with 'follow your character sheet' and the fact it is not tagged as evil in there, thus it is not an evil spell ((obviously it is tagged as an evil conjuration spell in the guide books)).

PM's don't have summon greater undead in Libris Mortis.
See well, the whole wall of text I wrote.

[metaquad4]

@Calen
"When ever palemasters can summon good undead or not ,is an interesting question."

Its not really a point up for debate, as the sourcebook does provide an answer by listing the kinds of undead they can have as a cohort.

"How ever on behalf of the defense of any one who wants to RP a neutral palemaster.
The spell is not tagged as evil + summon undead is conjuration not necromancy.
Since it is not evil tagged you now have an excuse when a paladin sees you with an undead vampire.
It's a non evil conjuration spell."


As stated, Summon Undead is an evil descriptor conjuration spell. However, that is irrelevant anyway. The feat itself states "At 4th level, the pale master can use create undead as a spell-like ability once per day.". Not only that, but the Summon Greater Undead feat states "At 9th level, the pale master can use create greater undead as a spell-like ability once per day.". Meaning, they are indeed evil spells no matter how they are used. Added to that, the creature they summon is an evil creature. So yeah. . .you don't have a jail free card from RPing consequences with that.

"Still when you go through their abilities, neutral is questionable but possible. Especially since the cohort might be neutral aligned or even good."

Neutrality is possible if you do not utilize the undead cohort [or the summon undead spells here on BG] (or your DM in your homebrew PnP game lets you have a none evil undead), the animate undead spell they receive, and focus on their own transformation. For a comparison to this server, it is similar to how Spirit Shaman's blood magic focuses on their own blood (and thus, doesn't shift your alignment) but Blood Magus' blood magic focuses on using another person's blood (and thus, shifts their alignment).

"As for the vampire being a cohort.
Thaumaturge can summon something next to their planar cohort.
Summon greater undead works mechanically like a summon, try summoning a badger next to it and it vanishes.
Thus you can't summon the same vampire over and over (even though it could be fun for RP)."

For the purposes of mechanics, yes, your vampire takes a summon slot instead of an animal companion slot. However, you are none-the-less summoning the same undead creature (unlike the normal create greater undead, which summons a random choice between a vampire warrior and a vampire warlock).

"But I think it's very difficult to control clerics/druids and make automatic alignment shifts on evil spells.
NWN2 is simply not fleshed out enough for such a system."

Its actually fairly simple to script such a system. Its already made for this server, and implemented for certain class(es). Its simply a matter of expanding the script to include more.

@Darradarljod

"Good and evil are one thing to consider, but what about holy and unholy?

FR wasn't modeled on the Biblical definitions of Good/Evil & Holy/Unholy which are my reference.

But I would venture a guess that even within FR canon all undead ("good or evil"), would be considered unholy/unnatural?

If that stands true, (and it may not), regardless of whether the undead creature was good (baelnorn) or evil (zombie), the factor of its unholiness/unnatural being would surely still provoke condemnation from paladins/druids and certain clerics who consider holiness a virtue."

Holy is a weapon enhancment in D&D. Profane and Sacred are both types of buffing techniques (alchemical bonus, enhancement bonus, Profane (evil) bonus, Sacred (Good) bonus). Holy and Unholy are not part of D&D's alignment (morality) system however.

Also, I have found evidence linking that not all druids have to dislike undead, speaking of that. I found an in-lore lich druid (Lossarwyn the Ice Lich, the one who taught the Eldreth Veluuthra to channel Ranger and Druidic divine magic), and I also found a feat (Corrupted Wild Shape) that allows undead (who are immune to polymorphing) to wildshape.

[Calen]

As stated, Summon Undead is an evil descriptor conjuration spell. However, that is irrelevant anyway. The feat itself states "At 4th level, the pale master can use create undead as a spell-like ability once per day.". Not only that, but the Summon Greater Undead feat states "At 9th level, the pale master can use create greater undead as a spell-like ability once per day.

Playing the devils advocate here.

The rule is 'RP your character sheet' thus if my character sheet states here that summoning an undead is not an evil spell it simply isn't.
Regardless of the fact that it is an evil spell by the source book

You are incorrect about he level 9 palemaster ability.
I have it right in front of me.
(The palemaster may summon an undead like creature once/twice a day as a spell like ability)
On this server it says nothing about creating undead or the spell working as create undead.
It clearly states you are summoning an undead.

Keep in mind the Palemaster we have here on BGC is not the same Palemaster of Libris Mortis.
Libris Mortis palemasters don't even have summon undead + summoning undead are evil spells.

For the purposes of mechanics, yes, your vampire takes a summon slot instead of an animal companion slot. However, you are none-the-less summoning the same undead creature (unlike the normal create greater undead, which summons a random choice between a vampire warrior and a vampire warlock).

BGC is very clear about when something is a cohort or not.
Thaumaturge his cohort will remain after resting, can be present next to a summon.
Just like animal companions.
When it doesn't state that it is a cohort than it simply isn't.

BGC has been strict about it's rules, examples are tieflings rping tails or people rping a half something.
Just like that in the end it is a medium RP server and spell restrictions aren't enforced neither are armor restrictions.

I do think it is a shame, just like nwn2 is very limited when it comes planar allies/familiars and in general stuff that adds extra flavor.
Every neutral wizard has a fire mephit ally/sylph etc , every PM an elite vampire female etc.
It's boring and reduces the RP value, but that's how it is.

Also by following logic vampires shouldn't be out during day light, you must be an incredibly stupid palemaster to pick out of all undeads a vampire to summon outside in the hot bright sun.

In the end it's better just to roll with it .


So we can state that on this server with these rules, you can summon an elite vampire as palemaster, with out having your alignment shift towards evil.
Regardless of the fact PM's can't summon those and that spell on it's own is evil ((+ it needs components).


Anyway IC wise you would probably be called an evil necromaner, and get chased by the holy mob with torches and pitch forks.

[metaquad4]

@Calen

"The rule is 'RP your character sheet' thus if my character sheet states here that summoning an undead is not an evil spell it simply isn't.
Regardless of the fact that it is an evil spell by the source book

You are incorrect about he level 9 palemaster ability.
I have it right in front of me.
(The palemaster may summon an undead like creature once/twice a day as a spell like ability)
On this server it says nothing about creating undead or the spell working as create undead."

My bad, yeah, I just read the feats IG. However, now, this presents another hole in your theory. Summon undead and summon greater undead are not actually spells IG (the feat states you can use them as spell-like-abilities [think archmage] by using the feat). So, without the actual spell IG, we must then turn to the source books for more information on them (as we do when we lack information on anything IG). If the DMs for this server make a particular ruling on it, then, we would use that instead of the source books.

"So we can state that on this server with these rules, you can summon an elite vampire as palemaster, with out having your alignment shift towards evil."

You can also torture and murder other PCs indiscriminately without getting evil points (as a neutral/good toon, no less). Heck, you can even do so in events to NPCs if a DM forgets to dish out your daily evil points. Does not make it not evil? Nope, its still an evil action. It just means you aren't enforcing the rules on yourself (send screenshots of dramatic RP that should shift your alignment, and ask for the alignment shift in the first example, or remind a DM of your drastic actions if they don't shift you for them in the second example). Player accountability is part of the equation, after all. DMs aren't as omnipotent as they are in PnP (much to my chagrin! ).

"I do think it is a shame, just like nwn2 is very limited when it comes planar allies/familiars and in general stuff that adds extra flavor."

Speaking of this, this can be fixed! Though, judging from our track record when it comes to updates...that is more of a dream at this point.