Suggestion: Mystic Theurge

[Dawrf]

I've always thought a mystic theurge would be cool to play, though I'd understand if it was considered too powerful.

Intuitive Strike was considered too powerful, until it was made to be unarmed only and require 2/3 of your HD in monk class.

Something similar could be done with Mystic Theurge.

Edit:
(I mean, if they do actually lower the number of dispel as some QC members have have mentioned, I do not have much against Theurge being a '8+8'/10 spell casting progression class. It could have free Practiced Spell Caster feats on level 1 and 5, and offer no no casting progression. (Making it more align with Eldritch Knight for example.)

[metaquad4]

Maybe give it 3rd level spellcasting requirements for both classes. That would be a suitable limitation imo.

Edit: The above idea is also neat. Make it 8/10, maybe at level 4 and level 8, and let one select practiced spellcaster feats out of a bonus feat pool at each dead level.

[BigJ]

And then we could just look at a Warlock 30, with the Eldritch master feat: 14d6*1.5 = 21d6 per Eldritch Blast. Now, couple that with Eldritch Chain that bounces around and with the damage over time from Vitriolic Blast

That's actually a bad example as Eldritch Chain only applies full damage to first target, half damage to all the rest and is if misses one the chain stops. There are other AoE warlock spells though.

Re the Aasimar ss/sorc -

Lvl 5 Firebrand 21d6 quickened then 21d6 Maxed, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat and when you run out switch to SS book -
Lvl 5 Call lighting 21d6 quickened then maxed, repeat, repeat etc.

Spells at every level for that. Or just settle for empowered AoE spells.

Throw on a body of the sun for 12d4 for anything getting to close, Death Armor and Elemental Shield too for good measure. Hell, running around (Storm Avatar?) with just those would do some damage.

Then there's the controller spells like Stonehold with max DC's, followed by say a Bigbys.

Harms, heals, regenerate, restoration, freedom of movement, death ward, spell resistence, there's just too much the druid spell book includes which fills the holes in the wizards book.

I know the arcane spell casters are weak on this server, it not like there's been loads of posts about nerfing the other classes so wizards can catch up . What the hell, give them access to everything

BigJ

[Dawrf]

That's actually a bad example as Eldritch Chain only applies full damage to first target, half damage to all the rest and is if misses one the chain stops. There are other AoE warlock spells though.

Not really, the damage still keeps stacking up, and with medium BAB, you are only going to miss if you happen to roll one. (Which is bit more often than 1/20 in this game, but still.)

Lvl 5 Firebrand 21d6 quickened then 21d6 Maxed, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat and when you run out switch to SS book -
Lvl 5 Call lighting 21d6 quickened then maxed, repeat, repeat etc.

I think the Aasimar example we had before could have '30' charisma, and 19 wisdom, and these numbers are written with the assumption of a '10+10'/10 spell casting progression:

Sorcerer spell book:

• Level 1: 9
  Level 2: 9
  Level 3: 8
  Level 4: 8
  Level 5: 8 (Firebrand)
  Level 6: 8
  Level 7: 7 (Empowered Firebrand)
  Level 8: 7 (Maximized Firebrand)
  Level 9: 7 (Quickened Firebrand)

Spirit Shaman spell book:

• Level 1: 7
  Level 2: 7
  Level 3: 7
  Level 4: 7
  Level 5: 6 (Call Lightning Storm)
  Level 6: 6
  Level 7: 6 (Empowered Call Lightning Storm)
  Level 8: 6 (Maximized Call Lightning Storm)
  Level 9: 6 (Quickened Call Lightning Storm)

• (4 of 5 epic feats were spent Great Charisma.)
• (2 feats were spent on Practiced Spell Caster, 3 on the above Meta Magic feats, 1 to Blood Magic, and 1 to Spell-casting Prodigy. )
• That is 7/7 of pre-epic feats and 4/5 of epic feats spent. What are you going to spend your remaining one epic feat on? Vampiric Feast? Extend Spell? Spell Focus (Evocation)? Spell Penetration?

Now, as both Firebrand and Call Lightning Storm are capped at 21d6, you could spam those two spells without Blood Magic turned on. (You won't get the +4 to the DC, but neither are you bleeding out.)

Without Blood Magic:
10 (Base) + 5 (Spell level) + 13 (Charisma with Eagle's Splendor) + 1 (Epic Caster Bonus)
= 29 (No self damage)


With Blood Magic:
10 (Base) + 5 (Spell level) + 13 (Charisma with Eagle's Splendor) + 1 (Epic Caster Bonus) + 4 (Blood Magic)
= 33 (But you damage yourself...)

• Level 1: 4 - 11, 7.5~ on average.
• Level 2: 5 - 19, 12.0~ on average.
• Level 3: 6 - 28, 17.0~ on average.
• Level 4: 7 - 36, 21.5~ on average.
• Level 5: 8 - 44, 26.0~ on average.
• Level 6: 9 - 52, 30.0~ on average.
• Level 7: 10 - 60, 35.0~ on average.
• Level 8: 11 - 68, 39.5~ on average.
• Level 9: 12 - 76, 44.5~ on average.

Don't get me wrong, casting a total of '53' variations of Firebrand or Call Lightning Storm does sound like fun. After all, it would be over eight minutes of casting offensive spells non-stop. But the problem lies with the fact how few areas actually posses spawns in such numbers that it would make sense to spam those two spells outright. Therefore, just like a regular 'blaster Arcanist' or a Spirit Shaman, you would first have to collect a mob to blast them to smithereens.

But unlike the regular 'Blaster Arcanist' or a Spirit Shaman, you probably will not be wearing much in the way of armor. For example, you could make a Wizard/Fighter/Arcane Scholar/Frost Mage that wears full-plate, tower shield, and have ICE active for even more AC. (And before you get your Automatic Still Spell (0-9), you could just use Greater Shout 24d6 and empower it for 36d6 because it has no Somatic Component.) And our regular Spirit Shaman could just take a dip of whatever class to get that heavy Armour Proficiency practically for free.

Now, nothing says that your Sorcerer/Spirit Shaman couldn't cast Greater Shout as well, you just cannot Empower it. (It is a level 8 spell.) And your Mystic Theurge will be missing points of AC in comparison, which understandably makes it more prone to being hit.

Throw on a body of the sun for 12d4 for anything getting to close, Death Armor and Elemental Shield too for good measure. Hell, running around (Storm Avatar?) with just those would do some damage.

Storm Avatar gives the same movement speed increase as regular Haste of Expeditious Retreat spell would.

• Body of the Sun - 12d4 (Once per round on enemies around you)
• Death Armor - 1d4 + 5 (If an opponent hits you in melee)
• Elemental Shield - 1d6 + (24 or 28) (If an opponent hits you in melee)

It would do some damage, but usually the goal is not to be hit by the enemies around you. (Especially if there is a large mob of them.)

Harms, heals, regenerate, restoration, freedom of movement, death ward, spell resistence, there's just too much the druid spell book includes which fills the holes in the wizards book.

Druid spell list does not have access to Greater Restoration. (In other words, no "Greater Heal" for Druids or Spirit Shamans.) Regenerate will not keep you alive on its own. Freedom of Movement mostly blocks the Paralyze and Slow traps on chests. Even with Blood Magic you do not get the full Spell Resistance a regular Spirit Shaman would have. Death Ward is actually handy, I give you that.


I understand the excitement for having a lot of spells. It sounds interesting but there is always a but that comes knocking around.

[Yhztro]

There is one character like this, in the books: Catti-brie, but it did require two gods and a divine intervention to end up like that, so imo it shouldn;t be possible to build one.

[Thorsson]

OFC it's overpowered. Anyone saying otherwise is doing so out of self-interest. The ONLY way not to make it overpowered is to nerf it. Despite the RP claims, we would then see no-one take it.

[Dawrf]

There is one character like this, in the books: Catti-brie, but it did require two gods and a divine intervention to end up like that, so imo it shouldn;t be possible to build one.

Ihre 14th Wizard/7th Cleric Male Human LG -- Friend of Yousouf on Karsus's Enclave

Ghazzalee 22nd Wizard/12th Cleric Female Human CG -- Managed the branch of Ioulaum Industries on Karsus's Enclave

Argus Hawkmoon of Sehanine 2nd Cleric/2nd Wizard Male Elf CG Sehanine Moonbow -- Member of The Company of the Moonshadows adventuring band. Home base is The Crawling Spider tavern

Ferla Treeclimber 6th Cleric/7th Wizard Female Elf -- -- -- Leader of the elves in the Forest of Amtar in Dambrath

The Unspeakable 9th Cleric/9th Sand Mage Male Yak-man NE -- -- Lairs under the mansions and minarets of the Al-Kamari family

Ghondomeir Hazathal 11th Cleric/11th Wizard Male Human LN Azuth -- Leader of The Tower of Mysteries in Mulmaster on the Moonsea

The Skum Lord 11th Cleric/13th Wizard Savant Aboleth LE Piscaethces -- Chief agent of the Kraken Society in Undermountain and Skullport

Sadebreth 15th Cleric/22nd Arcanist Male Human NG Mystryl -- Tried to duplicate the effects of priest spells into arcanist spells. Resides in Imbrue

The Mistmaster 19th Cleric/26th Wizard Male Human CG Leira Illusionist Leader of the Citadel of the Mists in the High Forest

Radoc 20th Cleric/23rd Wizard Male Human LE Tangg -- Plane walker who resided in the High Forest. Has since disappeared

Picked for your browsing from here: http://www.candlekeep.com/library/artic ... s_main.htm

[Dawrf]

OFC it's overpowered. Anyone saying otherwise is doing so out of self-interest. The ONLY way not to make it overpowered is to nerf it. Despite the RP claims, we would then see no-one take it.

A reply to such can only be succinct:

OFC it's useless. Anyone saying otherwise is doing so out of self-interest. The only way not to make it useless is to empower it. Despite the RP claims, we already see no-one taking it.

In other words, it is the Hitchen's razor. "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

[Rhifox]

Despite the RP claims, we would then see no-one take it.

There are plenty of people who would take it, even in a nerfed state, since there are a lot of character concepts that would benefit greatly from having it regardless of how powerful it is.

[BigJ]

Hi Dwarf,

Man you really are putting a lot of effort into this, gotta respect the passion . Thanks n'all for the figures proving what a good nuker the SS/Sorc would be. I don't have too much time so just some quick corrections, I think you may be missing things given the scale of your efforts.

That's actually a bad example as Eldritch Chain only applies full damage to first target, half damage to all the rest and is if misses one the chain stops. There are other AoE warlock spells though.

Not really, the damage still keeps stacking up, and with medium BAB, you are only going to miss if you happen to roll one. (Which is bit more often than 1/20 in this game, but still.)

Just to emphasize HALF DAMAGE to secondary targets. The first target hit will be 21d6, all the rest will be 10d6. Eldritch Chain just isn't a great nuking spell, a good controller spell but then your using something other than Vitriolic Sphere (Noxious, Beshadowed etc. Not as good as a Stonehold spell but still pretty good)

Storm Avatar gives the same movement speed increase as regular Haste of Expeditious Retreat spell would.

Storm Avatar is +100% speed increase, not 50% like haste. Also makes you immune to knockdown, the only spell to do so I think WITHOUT slowing you down.

Druid spell list does not have access to Greater Restoration. (In other words, no "Greater Heal" for Druids or Spirit Shamans.)

Greater Restoration is nerfed to 150hp according to spell changes, same its the same amount as a heal spell. Heal also cures blinded, confused, dazzled, deafened, diseased, feebleminded, insane, nauseated, poisoned, and stunned. You can use normal restoration to get rid of lvl drain. Useful additions to a wizard spellbook.

Other quick points:
- Does a wizard build really need to ware full-plate for a decent AC against mobs? Could use Tortoise Shell for +9 ac, does Freedom protect from the speed reduction on that? I'm not sure as not played a druid.
- That spare feat? Howabout Telthor Companion, that way you can have two summons out whilst nuking. Would look cool with a Phantom Bear.
- SS/sorc doesn't need greater shout for 36d6, its has greater fireburst, Chain Lightening, Firestorm, IGMS.
- I see you didn't mention the Stonehold spell. Not surprising, I hear druids love that spell.

Whatever way you cut it, putting two spellbooks into one character with FULL dc's as per a pure single build is overpowered.

Now a Cleric/Wizard ONLY MT class still smacks of abuse potential but at least it has to prop two stats. Nerf the MT progression, make it application only and then maybe see how it goes.

Damn, I spent too much time on this, gotta go.

BigJ

[Thorsson]

There are plenty of people who would take it, even in a nerfed state, since there are a lot of character concepts that would benefit greatly from having it regardless of how powerful it is.

Bah, humbug. Nothing to stop you taking Cleric and Wizard now and RPing being a Mystic Theurge.

[Thorsson]

OFC it's overpowered. Anyone saying otherwise is doing so out of self-interest. The ONLY way not to make it overpowered is to nerf it. Despite the RP claims, we would then see no-one take it.

A reply to such can only be succinct:

OFC it's useless. Anyone saying otherwise is doing so out of self-interest. The only way not to make it useless is to empower it. Despite the RP claims, we already see no-one taking it.

In other words, it is the Hitchen's razor. "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

If it was useless then no-one would want it. Call that any name you like...

[Rhifox]

There are plenty of people who would take it, even in a nerfed state, since there are a lot of character concepts that would benefit greatly from having it regardless of how powerful it is.

Bah, humbug. Nothing to stop you taking Cleric and Wizard now and RPing being a Mystic Theurge.

Which already occurs, with people like Aeili. For those people, mystic theurge is definitely valuable, even in a nerfed state.

[Thorsson]

Which already occurs, with people like Aeili. For those people, mystic theurge is definitely valuable, even in a nerfed state.

Depends on the nerf I expect. 5/10 spell progression, every odd in 1 class, every even in another. That way there is no mechanical gain. Now who wants it?

[Steve]

And now with Master of Disguise in-game...one can really RP a Mystic Theurge!