Minimum Lvl Requirement gone?

[AC81]

Wanted to add my one cent. When finding a pair of boots with plus 1 dodge or items with extra hit points etc... I liked that this type of gear had a niche. I may not have found something epic, but it's fun to think I may have looted the ultimate item for a particular slot of a low level character!

New players can still do this .... Also, this change wasn't made with twinking in mind. It was made from the perspective of the low level player that finds a nice item and is able to use it straight away. This wasn't changed so that everyone could just start decking out their new lowbies with high level bling.

[Lyrae]

Wanted to add my one cent. When finding a pair of boots with plus 1 dodge or items with extra hit points etc... I liked that this type of gear had a niche. I may not have found something epic, but it's fun to think I may have looted the ultimate item for a particular slot of a low level character!

New players can still do this .... Also, this change wasn't made with twinking in mind. It was made from the perspective of the low level player that finds a nice item and is able to use it straight away. This wasn't changed so that everyone could just start decking out their new lowbies with high level bling.

Well that is exactly whats gonna happen =)

[vbaddict]

Wanted to add my one cent. When finding a pair of boots with plus 1 dodge or items with extra hit points etc... I liked that this type of gear had a niche. I may not have found something epic, but it's fun to think I may have looted the ultimate item for a particular slot of a low level character!

New players can still do this .... Also, this change wasn't made with twinking in mind. It was made from the perspective of the low level player that finds a nice item and is able to use it straight away. This wasn't changed so that everyone could just start decking out their new lowbies with high level bling.

If I understand the OP correctly, now the ultimate item for a low level character will be the same as the ultimate item for a level 30 character. So before, plus 1 dodge was the ultimate amount a level 1 could wear. Now it sounds like the ultimate amount of dodge a level 1 can wear is 4.

[Tsidkenu]

1. While BGTSCC consists of a community of FR roleplayers, decisions affecting the server are not based on an Open Democracy. If it were an Open Democracy we would have ERP18+, +20 enchanting, level 40 cap, and mega monster XP gains for grinding by now. It's the same reason that it is the DM/Admin team that make the server rules and not primarily the community at large. Feedback from the wider community is taken into consideration, of course, but there are those decisions which the staff need to go with our gut instincts rather than listening to the whining of the same complainers each time something new comes along. If you don't like this method of 'governance', no-one is forcing you to stay here. Alternatively, set forth an application for DM/QC as Endelyon has already suggested and the pros/cons of your application will be considered for private participation in discussions such as these.

2. This decision was made upon the approval of Head DMs, QC and last of all the suggestion which was originally set forward on the 3rd of July and finally approved by Head of Development Rasael after a new player complained of having an illegal character because he changed the appearance of his regen cloak and the suggestion was made for this to be removed to save Maecius from a now-superfluous workload of fixing item-level borked characters.

3. It has been said, both here and in the QC discussion of this matter, that this decision favours the rich 'old guard' and powergamers. While that is true to a significant degree, and that point came up repeatedly in QC discussion, it is not any different to those same old guard/powergamers getting a level 30 FS/Wizard guildie to buff them to a Divine Rank 0 deity to trounce low content, or twinking across copious sums of gold to turn into a consumables slot-machine. There have already been means to godmode low content for those who truly wish to do so. Unlocking Item Level Restrictions is little different than what is already available for those who have the intentions, and in fact the current move can make the whole levelling process from 1-15 much quicker for everyone, something which lots of people have complained about for ages, not to mention the fact that the current 100% RCR completely bypasses all such arguments anyway.

4. Then there are those who have no desire to powergame, or brand new characters to the server. They do not twink items/gp to start and do not get their guildies to buff them to the heavens. They prefer to RP a new character in its entirety, and the relaxation of item level restrictions will prove a boon to these players because they no longer have to hasten their levelling process to be able to use the items the RNG loot system spews at them during their adventures. Spell Resistance items finally become useful at lower levels when they actually make a difference! And how good is it not having to wait for level 7 to get a Regen cloak?!

5. If you actually ask nicely enough MrM3ntalist or Rasael may even consider moving the QC discussion of this matter into a locked public forum for perusal. Then you can know for yourselves what we ourselves have been discussing for the last 3 weeks, and that nothing that has been brought up in this thread is new to us at all.

6. I agree with sentiments that this change could have used a public thread before its introduction. Due to the simplicity of the change (unticking one single box in NWServer) I understand why Endelyon processed it as soon as final approval came through from all parties. In the future, significant decisions such as these should have a few days in the public forum before they are switched on (although as per point 1, public sentiment need not overturn any decisions made by the team for the supposed betterment of the server).

____________________________________

I would like to think that the current DM/Dev/QC teams are above enough reproach to enjoy the confidence of the community regarding not just this decision but all the content we are trying to implement for everyone's mutual enjoyment. There have been times, especially during the opening phase of the 'Big Update', that things have slipped through which we did not approve of. Matters such as those were fixed, or are still in the process of being fixed. If the players do not think this is the case, please take your concerns via PM to the relevant group leaders (QC Co-Ord, Head Dev, Head DMs, Maecius) because we too value constructive criticism about our roles, roles which I hope we all take seriously.

[Garn Greymoon]

Thank you for this change. I like it a lot and having an arbitrary ooc mechanic makes no sense. When I gm or am a player in a pnp game there's no such thing. Also if you look at it from your character a sword is a sword whether that be the holy avenger or something mundane.

Sure it'll affect the economy but stirring it up and opening access to a broader audience is a good thing.

[Maecius]

I'm personally OK with this decision for three reasons:

1) I feel like all players should have an equal opportunity to excel, both mechanically and through their roleplay, regardless of their server seniority;
2) I agreed that it was an arbitrary, out of character rule that had no real basis in Dungeons & Dragons, and little place on our server since we already have item power level restrictions in place in the rules and loot tables (+4 attribute maximums, no blanket immunities, etc.);
3) I could spend several hours a week coordinating with players who were broken by the item level restriction rules, and I do feel that time is better spent on enhancing the server in more meaningful ways.

Several of the administrators we communicate with regularly from other persistent worlds have informed us that this change is reversible if we need to reverse it, so it's not the end of the world if there is some huge downside we did not consider. But as it stands, I feel it's a step in the right direction towards inclusiveness and a more level playing field for all.

In the future we can try to take greater efforts to have public opinion threads on these sorts of matters before they go live, but please do keep in mind that we have a very heavy workload spread among very few volunteers -- and we are trying to get things checked off our massive to-do lists as quickly as possible, as more and more great new suggestions and fixes are coming from you guys all the time and every day. So delaying every decision with multiple discussions would unnecessarily slow development as a whole, and this decision doesn't really affect anything but OOC dynamics.

Some decisions are going to just end up getting made, as well. I mean, I personally didn't even know this one was happening today until after the fact, though I do support QC, Rasael, and Endelyon for taking the initiative (and it was previously approved, so it's not like it completely blindsided me, but the point is that I trust our dev team to make the right calls, especially when supported by the QC team, and I hope the rest of you can share my faith in them -- or at least give them the benefit of the doubt before automatically condemning a decision just because it has taken you by surprise).

[mrm3ntalist]

There are very few drawbacks. Alright, veteran players will be able to equip their epic characters with their gear. But even now, how long you think it takes a veteran player to get to level16? Dont veteran players know which equipment to wear, at which level and which area to grind "safely"?

So basically the timeframe of this problem is very small and this "problem" is already happening. Veterans know to equip the appropriate items for the area they grind in, even have their friends ward them IC. Veterans will always have an advantage over new players because of experience of the PW. You cant balance that.

The positives after this small timeframe were considered more important
- There will be no need to grind for that level where you can equip a high level item you have
- The gap between low level players and epics, can be broadened
- Easier to give DM rewards to RPers that dont try to level fast

[Thorsson]

2) I agreed that it was an arbitrary, out of character rule that had no real basis in Dungeons & Dragons

This is somewhat disingenuous. In PnP a DM will not be giving +4 items to level 1 characters. I know that, you know that, and the Queen of bloody Sheba knows that.

Level 1 characters are not meant to have powerful items. And people spinning it as RP-friendly are just rationalising.

[Grimcheese]

2) I agreed that it was an arbitrary, out of character rule that had no real basis in Dungeons & Dragons

This is somewhat disingenuous. In PnP a DM will not be giving +4 items to level 1 characters.

It depends on the campaign the DM was running. If it was a more low-magic setting then yeah, it'd be disingenuous to give +10 vorpals to nublets right off the bat. (Unless said +10 vorpal had some serious drawback, or was a plot-critical weapon, or something that would justify its existence there.)

But as far as I can tell, with all of the high-magic going on in the BGTSCC setting, having +4 stuff at level 1 doesn't seem nearly so preposterous.

[Steve]

But as far as I can tell, with all of the high-magic going on in the BGTSCC setting, having +4 stuff at level 1 doesn't seem nearly so preposterous.

+4 items available to Level 1 (or through level 13) just simply devalues the power/importance/lore/role-play of epic weapons.

I totally agree with what Staff people are saying, especially on the issue of making it easier and more enjoyable to use whatever Items your toon acquires, but undeniably, this decision makes a significant change to the Game World on a number of fronts that directly effects Role-Play. And I'll say it again: Staff didn't seem to think to ask the Community if they wanted this change in the first place.

This issue leaves the lingering question: what other changes are slotted that will effect our role-play experience that we don't know about, and as the greater Community, have no say about? Unless the truth is that Staff does not want the Community to have a say?

[Theodore01]

Nothing is more immersion breaking, than to party with a young adventurer who is fully equipped. Is was annoying before the change, but now it gets ridiculous.
Imagine a green lad who barely knows how to hold a sword, now wielding a vampiric flaming blade single-striking all the poor kobolds at hilltop

For me a good part of the fun was the progress a char. made during his journey. That is always also about the gear he could get his hands on. Some Chars. got lucky others not.

Starting with nothing or a few minor pieces i really enjoy playing the lower areas and getting more gear, in fact much more than most the epic areas, where only an optimized char. can survive and most of the time my gear stays the same from lv20 to 30, unless i get a lucky find.

Other than that i find the thought of wielding the same sword/pants my whole life boring.

[mrm3ntalist]

Nothing is more immersion breaking, than to party with a young adventurer who is fully equipped. Is was annoying before the change, but now it gets ridiculous.
Imagine a green lad who barely knows how to hold a sword, now wielding a vampiric flaming blade single-striking all the poor kobolds at hilltop

For me a good part of the fun was the progress a char. made during his journey. That is always also about the gear he could get his hands on. Some Chars. got lucky others not.

Starting with nothing or a few minor pieces i really enjoy playing the lower areas and getting more gear, in fact much more than most the epic areas, where only an optimized char. can survive and most of the time my gear stays the same from lv20 to 30, unless i get a lucky find.

Other than that i find the thought of wielding the same sword/pants my whole life boring.

There is nothing preventing a player to use equipment as they find it. Unless the problem is not what you can't do but what others can do.

In any case this is an issue happening from before for those players that had the appropriate equipment for the level they were.

I think you remember very well that when the adventuring groups were being formed a rule was in place to only use items that you find during your adventures

[Kauaiian]

The previous IRL prevented use of items as they were found by a PC, unless the player twinked it to the appropriate level PC sitting in the vault.

I personally enjoyed finding something with an IRL..just another goal for me as a player to look forward to.

Unless the problem is not what you can't do but what others can do.

This could be it, from what I have read.

[Maecius]

This change will currently affect a very small part of the player population:

Namely those currently on lower-level characters who had an item they could not use -- that now they can.

It won't affect the majority of existing characters.

It will make it somewhat easier to level through the lower levels, which we have been frequently told isn't easy to begin with, for those low level characters who find a good item or are gifted one by a higher level player character.

Ultimately this change will primarily impact low-level characters by making the low-level grind a little bit easier and safer for them.

I don't really believe that level 30 epic characters are going to rush to go roll new low level characters as a result of this mechanics change. Though in my opinion that might actually be a good side effect, not a doomsday scenario, if that's how it played out. With the 100% RCR bot up and running, the player population is getting epic-heavy as it is.

[Rhifox]

I have no way of knowing whether the person next to me has a +1 sword or a +4 sword. I have no way of knowing that the person next to me has gear that gives them a +4 strength bonus. I have no way of knowing that the person next to me has a +4 natural armor amulet. I have no way of knowing any part of someone else's gear except for those god-awful lighting effects, and I don't care.

Is this really an issue?


As far as immersion, we have a level 30 cap, widespread selling of magical arms and armor of any variety (instead of having Thayan Enclaves being one of the only places you could actually purchase a, at max, +1 magic item), dozens or hundreds of adventurers (with a 30-level range) in a single area, respawning dungeons and chests, and extraordinary inflation.

That a level one character might be using a +4 item is the least of our immersion worries. Assuming you can even tell what level that person is in the first place.