Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Tantive wrote:Evil Bladesingers. Just no. Its rather abominable to my tastes in every sensibility to me. In all examples for characters in Dnd lore books, neutral is the lowest I've seen them go. Evil going gish, let that happen under Duskblades that have their own Lore and interesting Abilities, and leave it there where it belongs. They also function differently in combat roles. Duskblades are Heavy combat spellblades, while the bladesingers acted as precision skirmishers.

A class more open to the rest. Duskblade, Spellblade and Swiftblade are far more fitting.

Worst case you could do an Assassin/Avenger split. Identical classes, but different names/description based on alignment.

Tantive wrote:Evil Bladesingers. Just no. Its rather abominable to my tastes in every sensibility to me. In all examples for characters in Dnd lore books, neutral is the lowest I've seen them go. Evil going gish, let that happen under Duskblades that have their own Lore and interesting Abilities, and leave it there where it belongs. They also function differently in combat roles. Duskblades are Heavy combat spellblades, while the bladesingers acted as precision skirmishers.

A class more open to the rest. Duskblade, Spellblade and Swiftblade are far more fitting.

Well, in my opinion, good assassins are an abomination

Incidentally, as far as the Drow go, they have their own variate of Bladesingers. Deathsingers.

Also, as there is no alignment requirement ANYWHERE on the class in PnP, there is nothing to stop an evil sun elf from becoming a bladesinger. Show us this alignment requirement. With a reference from source (Anyone can claim anything. Evidence is required to verify claims as truth or falsehood.). Neither the Tomb and Blood nore the Complete Warrior versions make reference to it.

Also, just as a curiosity. Where in source do Bladesingers have to take an oath? I've yet to read that in any of the source books (again, Tomb and Blood and Complete Warrior both detail Bladesingers). Can anyone quote me evidence from the source that can back this claim up? For instance, Paladins and Druids (both classes that must adhere to oaths) both have their oaths and how they can fall detailed in their class descriptions.

As it stands, the claim that Bladesingers must be good and must take an oath are just as baseless as saying all Bladesingers are reincarnated flying pigs. Therefore, I cement that all Bladesingers are reincarnated flying pigs in the same light as some of you have cemented that they must take oaths/have an alignment requirement. It holds the same weight as your claims.

If you can supply me some source books that say otherwise, I'll be happy to eat my own words.

(Seriously, point to a source that says it. And neither of them do. Complete Warrior, Page 17. Tomb and Blood, Page 49.)

Aside from that, two things to bear in mind:
1) Evil elves are, in general, relatively rare. This is in general though, and doesn't have anything to do with the Bladesinger class. And, because we ICly can't peer into character sheets, an evil character can in fact be respected in the community. They might not even do anything like cackling or sacrificing virgins. The small things count as evil too. Additionally, PCs themselves are not aware of their alignment. They might not view it as evil, and it might be unnoticeable to most being (being more covert). Not all evil is "in your face".

2) We are the 0.1% as playable characters. Expect rare things to come out of PCs, regardless. You can view them as snowflakes, abominations, or anything that you like. But, all you do is narrow your perspective and spew vitriol at that point. And yes, sometimes rare things get out of hand. Sometimes we have half fey-half fiend warlocks who make pacts with celestials for their souls. And, we have DMs for that. To either say "your character is insane and isn't X, Y, and Z" or to enforce IG consequences on characters.

FYI again: Mithral Chainmail is a light armor and is 6/4 split rather than a brestplate's 5/5, so 14 dex + cats grace (or 15 and +3 item if you want to play safe) is good enough, no feats needed.

The assassin talk got me thinking outside the box re what some folk might do -

Rogue 10 / Wiz 3 / Assassin 9 / Bladesinger 8

Probably a better split out there as didn't put much thought into it, but -

Epic precision hips assassin with auto-quickened lvl 4 spellbook for utility (inc Teleport!) with 0ASF whilst armoured with an extra 8 ac over a normal assassin build, and access to all arcane scrolls (upto lvl 9 spells) without needing to max UMD.

Seems cool

BigJ

That...actually sounds really fun. Easily dispelled, but fun! I like it.

From making builds out of classes that are out, to making builds out of classes that are barely even conceived. What has the world come to

metaquad4 wrote: Well, in my opinion, good assassins are an abomination

Avenger

It looks rather identical to Assassin, Avenger to abilities. But with their own lore for a part.

metaquad4 wrote:Incidentally, as far as the Drow go, they have their own variate of Bladesingers. Deathsingers.

I'm having trouble finding the actual class. Theres a reference to a 2e kit. Then a mention to a more bard oriented, closer to dirgesinger. Then another to duskblade. I don't think it ever existed as an actual prc past 2e? I've found one reference of an attempted conversion here. Homebrew.

Tantive wrote: Avenger


It looks rather identical to Assassin, Avenger to abilities. But with their own lore for a part.

I am aware. Also, from that link: "As befitting the spirit of April Fool's Day, we offer the following variant of an existing prestige class... in this case, a look at when assassins go good."

Anyway, my point is that we can do the same thing we did to assassin to Bladesinger, should we implement it. Assassin is Assassin/Avenger. Bladesinger will be Bladesinger/Deathsinger. But, that isn't necessary, truly.

You can make a drow bladesinger. Drow are a subrace of elves, and bladesinger doesn't have an alignment requirement. The requirements don't prohibit it. Additionally, drow have their own communities. And, they can be respected members, guardians, and/or paragons of their communities, despite the fact that they are evil communities. Any alignment of community can have people serving in this capacity.

Bladesingers are paragons, devoted to the elven way of life and being champions of their communities (taken to the extreme end of their role). But, each subset of elves have a different way of life. Aquatic Elves, Drow, Star Elves, Sun Elves, Moon Elves, Wild Elves, and Wood Elves all have a distinct way of life that they operate in.

And, as I mentioned above. There is nothing in the source I can find that says that drow are prohibited from taking Bladesinger. The race clearly specifies that it must be "Elf or Half Elf". That means that any subset of elf, or half elf, can take the class. Nore does it give an alignment requirement (evil communities have their champions too).


As far as flavor text goes, here it is. Right from the source:

Bladesingers are elves who have blended art, swordplay, and arcane magic into a harmonious whole. In battle, a bladesinger’s lithe movements and subtle tactics are beautiful, belying their deadly martial efficiency. Multiclass fighter/wizards are the most obvious candidates for the prestige class, although any elf who can wield a martial weapon and cast arcane spells can become a bladesinger. Bladesinger ranger/wizards, rogue/wizards, and even bards are not unknown. Bladesingers command great respect in most elf communities, and NPC bladesingers usually serve as itinerant guardians and champions of the elf community at large.

Not mentioning any specific subraces there, or alignment. Interesting, no? And, additionally, it mentions that the NPC Bladesingers are the ones that serve as guardians and champions of the elven community. Not the PC Bladesingers, who are off adventuring.

For an extra bonus, check out Races of Faerun, page 179. Its a Faerun specific source-book, and it details Bladesinger on that page? Guess what? Same requirements. Any elven subrace or half-elf, no alignment requirement.

Claims that drow can't be bladesingers, and that evil elves can't be bladesingers are utterly baseless and without evidence still, as of this post.

Tantive wrote:

metaquad4 wrote: Well, in my opinion, good assassins are an abomination

Avenger

It looks rather identical to Assassin, Avenger to abilities. But with their own lore for a part.

As Whistler linked a few pages behind, Bladesingers are suggested to be used as a template for duskblades, with added battlecaster feat. By Wizards of the Coast themselves.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp? ... c/20070228

For those wishing to utilize the history of the duskblades in Faerun but without incorporating the class into their games, there is an alternative. It is easy enough to use the bladesinger prestige class from Races of Faerun. Use the Battle Caster feat from Complete Arcana to allow bladesingers to wear mithral full plate. The rest is just character choices and style.

Duskblades are an interesting idea, as well. And, if evidence is found (of which, there is none so far) that Bladesingers must be a specific alignment, it can be incorporated. But, for now, it shouldn't be necessary.

All 3 sourcebooks in which I've found Bladesinger detailed in (Tomb and Blood, Compete Warrior, Races of Faerun) do not state an alignment requirement and state that any elf/half-elf can be a bladesinger. There is no need to add a bunch of names to the class to over-complicate it. Bladesinger can be of any elven subrace, and of any alignment. As the three sourcebooks clearly state.

Complete Book of Elves, Chapter Nine and Ten expands on the lore of the Bladesinger.

Those that supplement the abilities with the skills, and the others who make it their lives. And they are called Bladesingers. A few things noted in that book lorewise:

Role.

While some characters may stay at home to defend the elven way, Bladesingers go out and actively promote it. They do this by seeking out their race's foes and eliminating them, either through words or actions. Acting as both diplomats and one-elf armies, they insure the safety of the elf race.

Distinctive Appearance.

Distinctive Appearance. Not only are they easily identifiable by their weapon of choice and catlikegrace, Bladesingers are decorated with their weapon guilds distinctive tattoo. Each guild has a separate and unique tattoo depicting its style of weapon through an animal representation. Long swords are often represented by great cats such as lions or panthers, a whip would be shown as a striking snake, and so forth.

Special Hindrances

To offset their abilities, Bladesingers suffer some severe penalties. Not only must they attempt to advance the cause of elvendom somehow at all times, they must also lend aid to any elf in need. Unless the elf is proven to be an enemy of the elven way of life, the Bladesinger must sacrifice life and limb to save that elf's life. Of course, the bladesinger is free to determine whether there is, in fact, an elf in danger. Too many times other races have tried to eliminate the Bladesinger menace through illusion and trickery. The Bladesingers have grown wary and have, unfortunately, allowed fellow elves to perish while determining the truth of the threat. Thus, most Bladesingers carry at least one detect magic spell in order to avoid possible errors. Bladesingers are so devoted to their chosen weapon that they can never learn another one.

It goes on to explain how they stick to one weapon, opposed to a weapongroup. And the use of one handed weaponry, or use of two hands on the one handed weapon when they are out of spells to cast.

The Elves of Evermeet, has several other mentions.

Several enchanted weapons unique to the elves can be found on Evermeet. A few, such as moon- blades, are occasionally found on the Faerßn turning. mainland, but these are rare. Most are exclusive or sacred to the elves. Their use by outsiders is Moonblades limited or forbidden and elven defenders such as the bladesingers will be quick to take back such items, often at the cost of the user’s life.

Enchanted swords have special significance to the elves. Many such legendary weapons have existed throughout elven history. Some are said to have been gifts from gods or to have been wielded by ancient heroes. Over the centuries, many swords have been lost, stolen, or de-stroyed. One of the primary tasks of the elves of Evermeet, and in particular the bladesingers, is to find and return these swords to their rightful place, in service to Queen Amlaruil.

Outsiders who have performed a great enough service to the queen (stopping an invasion, rescuing a prominent agent, retrieving a lost treasure, etc.) may be rewarded with status as Sha’'Quessir, or elf-friends, and given permission to visit the island, or given elfrune items enabling communication or direct teleportation to Evermeet. Especially trustworthy elf-friends may be provided with the location of one of several magical gates to and from the isle. This is not a favor to be granted lightly, for the gates and elfrunes may be turned against Evermeet and used for invasion or to enable thieves to enter the isle and steal the many treasures there. Anyone who uses runes or the location of gates in this manner will be hunted down and slain by bladesingers or other elven avengers, who will dedicate their very lives to the task.

Cormanthyr Empire of Elves has more.

Year of the Flame Tongue

Josidiah Starym mounts a campaign to recover the lost Soldier’s Blade of Cormanthyr after
nearly 800 years; he does this as a way to prove to Eltargrim that the heir of House Starym is noble enough to marry his niece and heir. The opening gambit of this search sees a temporary fall of the garrisoned drow at the Twisted Tower, since that was where the Soldier’s Blade was lost to Cormanthyr, Josidiah and his troupe of bladesingers and akh’faern venture into the Underdark beneath the Tower, vowing to return in a century with the lost treasures.

Speaking about Cormanthyr's army.

The Protectors are the elite troops and those specifically assigned to defending Cormanthyr’s nobility. Comprised almostentirely of gold elves, these troops tend to be bladesingers, higher-level rangers, or fighters. In fact, many of the Protectors opted to remain as rank-and-file among the elite rather than become officers of the lower-status common army. Almost all Protectors have elven chain mail, though the officers among them have elven plate mail (strong, light plate mail that allows elves to cast spells from within it). The standard weapons for the elite (long bow, spear or other polearm, longsword or broad sword) are all at least of +1 enchantments. A sign of prestige among the elven nobility of Myth Drannor is an honor guard of personal Protectors, rather than standard mercenary guards from the common army.

It even gives special mention to the riding of moonhorses, chaotic good creatures. Giving special mention to bladesingers.

The moon horses are the magical mounts exclusive to moon elven fighter/mages (but not bladesingers). These intelligent horses were among the natives of Arcorar long before the elves arrived, and they volunteered their services to aid the elves’ defense of the forest. Now, after long millennia, the moon-horse herds are dwindling, and only 20 serve as mounts for their moon elven riders at any given time. Still, they are often set as the shocktroop cavalry, their spells and speed breaking many opposing charges for easy attacks by the unicorn cavalry following them or the hidden scouts’ arrows.

Then there is an entire list of examples as characters. Neutral being the lowest they go.

And the largest piece of proof for their alignment type was their intent in 2e, being lawful good or neutral only.

Since we follow 3.5's ruleset, its a bit of a tossup with regard to that. And, since 3.5 supersedes 2e where there are redundancies due to it being published after, Bladesingers would have 3.5's requirements.

If its really too hard to comprehend and causes that much confusion, I'd say we should integrate Duskblade (for evil elves, such as the Eldreth Veluuthra [as was mentioned on the Duskblade page]), Bladesinger (for goodly elves), and Deathsinger (for drow) together into 1 class, in a similar manner to how assassin and avenger are 1 class on this server. We can call it "Bladesinger" and include in the flavor text that its a standin for all 3 classes.

If we do that, we could also give assassin the same flavor text treatment.

Also, bear in mind that the Complete Book of Elves is not realm specific. Thus, Races of Faerun will override it in both time (as mentioned above) and the fact that it is realms specific.

Duskblade and Deathsinger are differing classes with abilities and lore differing from their own, with Duskblades not even being racial specific if I am correct. For just convenience merging them together I find it defeating the purpose to bring unique flavors, and a detriment to portrayals.

Complete book of elves is the lore for elves until it is not and in conflict with realm specific versions. What remains cannot be simply cast aside, nor forgotten just because its not realmspecific. Especially their oathes, as it has not been here. Now I'de like you to give me an example of an evil bladesinger in lore, to support its inclusion and that it is to the benefit of the roleplay to the portrayal as an elven paladin in this server. Because there will be who ignore the lore behind it, ignore the roleplay for elves behind it and simply pick it to suppliment to their builds for mechanical benefits. In addition, a few goodly arcane classes would do well to add spice.

There are many classes I hold to higher standards and in portrayals, with Paladins and Clerics to be the most obvious example. Bladesinger sits there for the Elven Culture and the Seldarine.

So why did I suggest Sun, Moon and Wood and restriction from evil? Because rarity of existance is something what players typically do not care about when they make their characters, and in fact relish into jumping becoming the rarity. It is fine in a Campaign of a few folks where you are DMed, and backstories are largely made and tailored for you, another is a continuous world where numerous characters come and go. Sun and Moon elves are the common race for Bladesinger. Wood elf? Extremely rare already in their sense towards the use of magic culturally. Wild elf? Savages. Much less any wizardly magic and civilisation together to even consider the class. Half elves? Even rarer to be begin to be taught because of their blood. I

The only reason it didn't have such restrictions in 3.5e, was to make it accessible for the proverbial five man PnP group, where it is wholly possible to tailor a world with the Dm where you are the 0.001% chance of the exception. And the DM in Pnp could actively monitor and put your character into positions where you face the downsides of the class.
How is that argument that for practicality.

Is it unfair to try and stop snowflaking before it begins?

Assassin/avenger is unique in the sense that the class is identical in shape and form, it simply differs in origins. The description and title should have reflected it earlier, if it has not already, when it was included without alignment in the beginning with the Avenger class in mind. I can understand that there could be UI and mechanical issues to keep the name simple at assassin.

Tantive wrote: Complete book of elves is the lore for elves until it is not and in conflict with realm specific versions. What remains cannot be simply cast aside, nor forgotten just because its not realmspecific.

Actually, it can. From Complete Book of Elves -

"Naturally everything presented in this book is optional to each campaign. Just as the DM has the final say on whether any of the rules presented in the core books apply to his or her campaign, so does the DM have the last word on whether to accept the ideas presented in this book.

Remember there are no right or wrong rules - whatever fits the style of the campaign ia acceptable. As long as each rule is reasonable, appropriate and fair any additional house rules the DM cares to impose are permissible"

Seems this book is being quoted a lot, other notes from the book -

- Drow are an equal sub-race of Elves just as much a Sun elves.
- No where in the book does it specify Drow cannot take the Bladsinger Kit. In fact some lore of the class suits drow rather well, such as the seeking and killing of their races foes.

"While some characters may stay at home to defend the elven (Inc Drow as sub race) way, Bladesingers go out and actively promote it. They do this by seeking out their race's foes and eliminating them, either through words or actions. Acting as both diplomats and one-elf armies, they insure the safety of the elf race (inc. Drow as subrace)."

Abilities to reflect if considering what "Complete Book of Elves" says about Bladesingers -

- AC Bonus is half-class level +1, rounded down. This does not apply to rear (flanked) or missile attacks, so they lose this bonus in those situations.
- "It adds +2 to their casting times, making it easier to disrupt their spells". I assume lore-wise we have to remove the Auto-Quicken feats and give them a minus concentration check?
- Requirements 13 CON and STR
- Remove ignoring ASF from armour. I can see references to using the Bladesong / Bladesinger fighting style (martial) whilst wearing armour, but not casting spells and ignoring asf. There was a statement about weapon abilities and then applying -2 penalty to attacks if wearing heavier armour than Elven Chain / Studded Leather. The only reference to somatic spell casting lead to the above penalty about casting times, nothing about ignoring ASF whilst casting in amour.

I'm no expert at this stuff, I just like researching and using my google-fu. However it seems to me there is confusion between the Bladesinger (as in bladesong fighting style) and Bladesinger (as in bladesinger kit).

Either way, the book says we can do what we want with it as long as it is fair.

BigJ

BigJ wrote:

Tantive wrote: Complete book of elves is the lore for elves until it is not and in conflict with realm specific versions. What remains cannot be simply cast aside, nor forgotten just because its not realmspecific.

Actually, it can. From Complete Book of Elves -

"Naturally everything presented in this book is optional to each campaign. Just as the DM has the final say on whether any of the rules presented in the core books apply to his or her campaign, so does the DM have the last word on whether to accept the ideas presented in this book.

Remember there are no right or wrong rules - whatever fits the style of the campaign ia acceptable. As long as each rule is reasonable, appropriate and fair any additional house rules the DM cares to impose are permissible"

Each campaign. This is a far cry from setting the standard of the entire setting you play. The DM's here set the standard for the entire server and host of players coming through. If they are to suddenly ignore the lore coming through, I am going to be more then dissappointed.

BigJ wrote:Seems this book is being quoted a lot, other notes from the book -

- Drow are an equal sub-race of Elves just as much a Sun elves.
- No where in the book does it specify Drow cannot take the Bladsinger Kit. In fact some lore of the class suits drow rather well, such as the seeking and killing of their races foes.

I mostly quote the book for the lore portions. And there, Yes it does state it. It makes a rather large stupilation that drow and half-elves are never taught the style on page 71.

BigJ wrote: "While some characters may stay at home to defend the elven (Inc Drow as sub race) way, Bladesingers go out and actively promote it. They do this by seeking out their race's foes and eliminating them, either through words or actions. Acting as both diplomats and one-elf armies, they insure the safety of the elf race (inc. Drow as subrace)."

As they are never taught the style, they didn't have it. Hence they developed their own form represented in another class.

BigJ wrote: Abilities to reflect if considering what "Complete Book of Elves" says about Bladesingers -

- AC Bonus is half-class level +1, rounded down. This does not apply to rear (flanked) or missile attacks, so they lose this bonus in those situations.

In 3(.5)e it the combat mechanic calculations changed, including parry. Its more akin to be flatfooted. The entire class isn't a prc but a baseclass or kit for fighter/mage I think 2e. I'm not that well versed on the earlier editions.

BigJ wrote: - "It adds +2 to their casting times, making it easier to disrupt their spells". I assume lore-wise we have to remove the Auto-Quicken feats and give them a minus concentration check?

No. The auto quicken is the mechanical method by which the single free action is performed. For instance it also says there that the bladesinger can parry and attack in the same round without wasting any additional attacks. Parrying which for instance would be able to do against thrown weapons.

BigJ wrote: - Requirements 13 CON and STR

The 2e edition bladesinger in Book of the Elves actually says this regarding stats.

To be a Bladesinger, a character needs at least a 13 Strength and Constitution, as well
as a 15 Dexterity and Intelligence.

BigJ wrote: - Remove ignoring ASF from armour. I can see references to using the Bladesong / Bladesinger fighting style (martial) whilst wearing armour, but not casting spells and ignoring asf. There was a statement about weapon abilities and then applying -2 penalty to attacks if wearing heavier armour than Elven Chain / Studded Leather. The only reference to somatic spell casting lead to the above penalty about casting times, nothing about ignoring ASF whilst casting in amour.

I'm no expert at this stuff, I just like researching and using my google-fu. However it seems to me there is confusion between the Bladesinger (as in bladesong fighting style) and Bladesinger (as in bladesinger kit).

You see this in the prc from 3e forward, because the mechanical rules in book of elves is 2e.

BigJ wrote: Either way, the book says we can do what we want with it as long as it is fair.

BigJ

Theres a large gap between whats right, fair and whats convenient.

Tantive wrote: I mostly quote the book for the lore portions. And there, Yes it does state it. It makes a rather large stupilation that drow and half-elves are never taught the style on page 71.

You kinda proved my point right there. That section on Page 71 is titled "Bladesong Fighting Style". It talks about a purely martial fighting style that requires two weapon slots and not smashing blows but moving to throw your opponent off balance before striking. It also says this style is usually only practised by warriors.

On pg 71 it does say "Please note: elves never teach this style to non-elves, including half-elves and drow (The latter of whom have their OWN TEACHERS and THEIR OWN style anyway)" but this is about the FIGHTING STYLE.

Critically is says in the second paragraph on Pg 71. "There are two types of Bladesingers: Those who learn it as an additional skill (Described below ((Ie. Pg 71))., and those who have made it their lives. Those in this second category are known as Bladesingers, and they are described in Chapter Ten ((Pg. 88, Fighter / Mage Kits)).

So Pg 71, Martial Fighting Style, of which Drow have their own equivalent, and Pg 88 for the Fighter/Mage kit version which doesn't specify any sub-race or alignment restrictions. Only quote I could see was "Suggested Elf Subraces: Grey Elf, High Elf". Key word being 'Suggest'.

Like I said, confusion over both the warrior version and the fighter/mage version both being called 'Bladesingers'.

BigJ

Having a developer put work into a class, only to have it only be able to used by a couple players is neither fair, right, nore convenient.

Ideally, we'll stick to the source as close as can but we'll also make the class available to as wide an audience as possible so that the class will see use. If I created something, only to see it have minimal or no use, I'd likely consider my time wasted.

We are presented with a way to keep with lore and have it see wide use in 2 ways:
1) Stick to 3.5 fully.
2) Stick to a mesh of 2e and 3.5, and integrate Deathsingers and Duskblades into Bladesinger.

We shouldn't throw those opportunities away. Hard work should see a good amount of use. If its not going to see much use, it shouldn't be added. Instead, the resources should be devoted to something that will see use.