Swashbuckler improvements

[mrm3ntalist]

Then let's start give out +4 stat items, +5 weapons. And death ward 1/day.

I get what your doing. I understand. Trust me I do. But your reasons why we do not do the above should apply to this feat as well. I am trying to be fair and consistant.

What does epic precision have to do with the above. As i explained Epic precison wont take away anything from rogues. There is nothing to justify that. Noone will stop playing rogues in order to get epic precision from SB because it doesnt make any sense. Keep telling it does wont change it. It cant change the fact that Mechanically it doesnt make any sense

Trust me i understand your intent and say "hey this helps them and hurts no one". This is just not true. You want this ability. Why not make it not work on SA dice? Just call it Percision. Then again every reason to do this is a reason to allow other classes acess earlier to this.

Trust me you really dont understand. Nor read posts. The feats is hardcoded. It cannot be changed. Otherwise we already would have done it

I also argue for ninja and assisassn who have to wait and do it the expensive way too.


Yes this will get more people to play SB. This was not the way to do it in my view.


We both know we will unlikely to see eye to eye because I'm not accepting of this Epic Feat being given away for free at level 12 to a class that shouldn't have it. You will not accept that there should be given thought to cost of this ability for other classes who need this as essential ability for end game content


Basiclly. You state that SB needs this ability to be content viable, and thus should get the feat for free. I state that other classes also need this feat to be content viabale yet have to pay two feats for it. I hope this shows you my view and the basics of fair and balance I am trying to draw to your attention. I further hope you will consider this issue and perhaps give it thought to addressing in the future.

I know there is no stopping this ability as it is in the update.

You keep arguing about rogues. Again, this has nothing to do with rogues. If you feel that rogues need some help make a suggestion.

[Invoker]

Not really, I just like the idea of of standing toe to toe with mobs doing min 17 dmg per hit with ptwf, whilst still being able to hips and death attack anything if needed, crit immune or not.

Does epic precision work with Wounding/Weakening critical or do you not know?

Would be a hell of a mage killer, probably

BigJ

You won't be standing toe to toe with mobs.

This build is nice, it's different, it's going to be playable (after the changes go in).

But Rogue is better than swash in there.

This build is going to be extremely hard pressed to fit in the necessary skills, it's going to be rather M.A.D., which means its overall toughness will be the same a Rogue build would have, except its damage will be far, far lower.

You will have high BAB, true, higher than the rogue...which doesn't need it out of HiPS to do twice your dmg or more in the first flurry.

There is NO SA build you can do better with 12 Swashbuckler levels in place of Rogue levels.

CON damage or not, you won't kill any competent mages, either. The moment you eat a Ray of Enfeeblement, or a Web, or Evard's, or a Cloud of Bewilderment, or any other joke spell you'll be toast.

No class with such saves can ever win against any competent mage, unless you literally one-shot them. And I don't see that happening in NWN2 (might have been in NWN1, in some cases).

This changes to Swashbuckler do not move anything in the server's overall balance. They just make the class more playable, and worth considering for an investment.

[Valefort]

There's no point in looking at the feat for itself, look at the benefits any swashbuckler build will get from it compared to any sneaker build. As for hybrids swash/sneak attackers they'll be inferior to both.

[aaron22]

i tinkered around with some swashy builds and still believe that 99% of swashies on the server will be 5 level dips. even with EP at 12, a build concept taking swash to level 12 or higher is still better off taking other base classes. the inability to stand toe to toe with mobs is always going to haunt this class. parry based builds can do "alright" until epic levels.

this leaves you with either dipping for rogue/SD so you can HiPS. and this makes the build weaker than if you would have just taken the rogue instead of swash because you lose out on all that SA dice.

what needs to be addressed is the inability to avoid damage that this class cannot do.

sure EP helps, but not in the way that really needs to be helped. it just makes it so you dont have to avoid fighting crit immune mobs.

[DM Hera]

mrm3ntalist, your striking at my tiny black heart. It would hurt if I could feel pain however this isnt about rogues, its about giving away an epic feat for free.

You compare EP to Iron Skin, this is not a fair comparison. +1 ac is not the same as being able to damage Crit Immune monsters. The reason why there is an epic +1 ac skill is because it can stack with all the other heavy armor feats and ways to build for AC. Which at that point becomes and makes it an epic talent. It is how it is applied that makes it epic. EP Is an epic talent for its ability to do damage regardless of type and spell, it by passes all crit immune and few abilities exist to do so before Epic Levels.

My problem is once again is the free give away. What everyone else has to pay 2 feats for you are giving away for free. Also a dedication to atleast 2 classes.

I read all the posts in this thread, and yes yours very closey to which I do not discount arguments. As for the feat and hardcoding why would you want to change it instead of making a new one??? that is what puzzled me, are we not capable of making a new one with this ability is different. I further was simply just shooting out solutions instead of digging heels in.

So yes I do understand your argument, i do understand your points. I think you do not understand mine or just think it doesnt matter.

If you think its fine to give away feats, with out costs, then so be it. However that is exactly what this is doing.

You are giving away an EPIC FEAT for free. If you do not want to call it epic, you can say your giving away a class specific expensive feat for free to another class.


On a final note, I do love to argue as you know. Though its time I let this dog lay, as in the end i have no power or voice over it. thanks for the spar!

[DM Hera]

There's no point in looking at the feat for itself, look at the benefits any swashbuckler build will get from it compared to any sneaker build. As for hybrids swash/sneak attackers they'll be inferior to both.

this can be said about any class, getting another classes ability.

my problem is the free.

it is what it is though I guess.

[mrm3ntalist]

You compare EP to Iron Skin, this is not a fair comparison. +1 ac is not the same as being able to damage Crit Immune monsters. The reason why there is an epic +1 ac skill is because it can stack with all the other heavy armor feats and ways to build for AC. Which at that point becomes and makes it an epic talent. It is how it is applied that makes it epic. EP Is an epic talent for its ability to do damage regardless of type and spell, it by passes all crit immune and few abilities exist to do so before Epic Levels.

Exactly. Now compare epic precision for rogues and then for swashbuckler. The first gets to +36 damage the latter +2-3. Do you see the difference?

My problem is once again is the free give away. What everyone else has to pay 2 feats for you are giving away for free. Also a dedication to atleast 2 classes.

Again, these change, have nothing to do with anyone else. The benefits are totally different

I read all the posts in this thread, and yes yours very closey to which I do not discount arguments. As for the feat and hardcoding why would you want to change it instead of making a new one??? that is what puzzled me, are we not capable of making a new one with this ability is different. I further was simply just shooting out solutions instead of digging heels in.

We could try and make something that could take months ot implement and test. Or use something already in game that works 100%. No dev time needed, no time to test it and a final product that works.

So yes I do understand your argument, i do understand your points. I think you do not understand mine or just think it doesnt matter.

If you think its fine to give away feats, with out costs, then so be it. However that is exactly what this is doing.

You are giving away an EPIC FEAT for free. If you do not want to call it epic, you can say your giving away a class specific expensive feat for free to another class.

You gave a justification at the beginning of the post, why +1AC is not the same with doing damage to crit immunes. When you compare epic precision for rogues and then for SBs, is it the same? The one gets 36 damage, the other 2-5. You are willing to make a difference between AC and Epic precision ( both epic feats ) but you are not willing to do the same about how the feat works for each class.

On a final note, I do love to argue as you know. Though its time I let this dog lay, as in the end i have no power or voice over it. thanks for the spar!

Still not my time

[Ambaryerno]

i tinkered around with some swashy builds and still believe that 99% of swashies on the server will be 5 level dips. even with EP at 12, a build concept taking swash to level 12 or higher is still better off taking other base classes. the inability to stand toe to toe with mobs is always going to haunt this class. parry based builds can do "alright" until epic levels.

this leaves you with either dipping for rogue/SD so you can HiPS. and this makes the build weaker than if you would have just taken the rogue instead of swash because you lose out on all that SA dice.

what needs to be addressed is the inability to avoid damage that this class cannot do.

sure EP helps, but not in the way that really needs to be helped. it just makes it so you dont have to avoid fighting crit immune mobs.

What about a feat that grants Dodge AC for every 5 ranks of Tumble, as opposed to the default 10?

[aaron22]

ok mrmentalist, much of this discussion has been focused around EP. and while i can understand both sides of the argument. i still would like to discuss the overall changes and what you wanted to accomplish.

do you this that one could take a swashy 1-30 in appropriate gear, with these improvements, in areas inside the CR range of the PC without a grotesque use of heal pots?

[BigJ]

I suppose if you want a direct comparison / gain, you could compare these:

1) Swash 12 / Rouge 10 / Assassin 8

2) Rouge 13 / Assassin 8 / Swash 5 / Figher 4.

Both can get improved evasion, epic precision (the second would get/need crippling strike).

The first gets some extra feats for free (Luck of heroes, Disarm, +2 Dodge (instead of +1), mobility (without needing to take dodge feat), Improved flanking for (+2ab). Plus it gets a free epic feat to spend at lvl 21.

The second gets 2d6 extra, 3 fighter feats, and a very restricted race choice or build plan to avoid xp penalty, and needs that epic feat spent on epic precision.

I'm thinking drow or tiefling ideally for the 18 int / 18dex starting stats, spend that lvl 21 feat on +1 stat and you can up both to 21, with +3 items for 24 on both. Or 26/22 split. Drow wouldnt work on the second one of course, that xp penalty on top of +2 ecl would be harsh.

I suppose you could drop assassin for weapon master, if not bothered about hips/death attack.

BigJ