Swashbuckler improvements

[mrm3ntalist]

In the next update Swashbuckler will get teh following:

Disarm at level 8, Epic Presicion at 12, evasion at level 16

[Steve]

Well Jiminy Cricket!! These are nice additions!

Finally a Swash 16 / Duelist 10 / XX 4, like Anointed Knight or Bodyguard or Cleric of Valkur or Bard can be viable.

[aaron22]

could we get swashy the skill: geography?

[Akroma666]

Well done sir!

[DM Hera]

Can some one explain why an Epic rogue hall mark power was given away to this class at level 12 for free?


In order to get Epic Percision you have to take Crippling Strike a level 10 rogue ability. Further you can only take Epic Percision at level 21 or higher.

Yet we are going to give this ability for FREE to swashbucklers pre-epic level and with out the cost of Crippling Strike?

Rogues had to BUY Crippling Strike and Epic Perision with feats. The swashbuckler just gets it for dinging a level? Along with all its previous abilities and abilities to follow.



Once again we are giving away a unquie rogue ability to another class 9 levels earlier, and for free!?!? Yes ninja can get this ability to but later then rogues.


What need does the swashbuckler have for this Rogue Trade Mark that it couldn't get it the traditional way of taking 10 rogue levels? Rogues, duelist and others for sure can use crippling strike much much earlier the Swashbuckler who has a higher AB, Higher AC and bonus damage from int and other abilities.

I would like the answer.

[7threalm]

I dont get it either its not like swashbuckler is a weak class...just 3 feats for nothing?

15 feats at lvl 17.......

that almost 1 extra feat per level.........

[aaron22]

Agree with hera. Ep should bounce back to 22 or later. Swash is solid to 5 right now. I am thinking starting the shield feat similar to m@a. With only the light shield being acceptable for it.

[The Whistler]

I'm assuming the decision was made so that swashies can't pile crippling strike on top of weakening critical if they are HiPSers.

Rogues unfairly monopolized crippling strike/epic precision for too long, imo. Yes, the class is weak but the gimmick of rogue-exclusive trapfinding and crippling strike was the wrong way to go about making it desirable for sneaks.

A rogue overhaul/buff is long overdue.

[Endelyon]

Can some one explain why an Epic rogue hall mark power was given away to this class at level 12 for free?


In order to get Epic Percision you have to take Crippling Strike a level 10 rogue ability. Further you can only take Epic Percision at level 21 or higher.

Yet we are going to give this ability for FREE to swashbucklers pre-epic level and with out the cost of Crippling Strike?

Rogues had to BUY Crippling Strike and Epic Perision with feats. The swashbuckler just gets it for dinging a level? Along with all its previous abilities and abilities to follow.

Once again we are giving away a unquie rogue ability to another class 9 levels earlier, and for free!?!? Yes ninja can get this ability to but later then rogues.


What need does the swashbuckler have for this Rogue Trade Mark that it couldn't get it the traditional way of taking 10 rogue levels? Rogues, duelist and others for sure can use crippling strike much much earlier the Swashbuckler who has a higher AB, Higher AC and bonus damage from int and other abilities.

I would like the answer.

Essentially because nobody will favor splashing Swashbuckler 12 over Rogue 10 for grabbing Epic Precision. It's a quality of life change to increase Swashbuckler damage to be more on par with other builds and make the class more attractive to play end game (giving them a very small amount of extra damage against crit immune targets, I think on an int-based Swash we're talking 4-5 extra damage a swing at level 30). For example, previous to this change, Swashbucklers that were pure dex/int focused and using a piercing or slashing weapon often dealt 0 damage to skeletons before level 20. This is not an exaggeration.

This is compared to a rogue which will gain at LEAST 5d6 / 2 sneak attack damage per hit on the first flurry, and up to 15d6 / 2 or more if they are full blown sneak attackers). This is on top of the other perks of going 10 Rogue that a 12 Swash won't get like Uncanny Dodge, access to UMD, and trapfinding.

The feat was recycled to Swashbucklers for the sake of the mechanic alone--it may be called Epic Precision, but the way it's been implemented for this particular class is nothing exactly epic. Rogues haven't been cheated out of something here, as there was never an agreement that only rogues would have access to the ability to partially bypass crit immunity in the first place. As developers we often have to use the mechanics we have available to us to tailor the game's balance, and in this case it was decided that Swashbuckler needed the extra power to be on par with builds of other types.

I think I can count the number of characters that currently have more than 5 levels of Swashbuckler on one hand, whereas the characters with 10 or more rogue levels are as numerous as the stars, and Rogue will continue to be one of the most popular base classes in the game regardless of this change.

I hope that helps to clarify things.

[mrm3ntalist]

Hidden: show

Can some one explain why an Epic rogue hall mark power was given away to this class at level 12 for free?


In order to get Epic Percision you have to take Crippling Strike a level 10 rogue ability. Further you can only take Epic Percision at level 21 or higher.

Yet we are going to give this ability for FREE to swashbucklers pre-epic level and with out the cost of Crippling Strike?

Rogues had to BUY Crippling Strike and Epic Perision with feats. The swashbuckler just gets it for dinging a level? Along with all its previous abilities and abilities to follow.


Once again we are giving away a unquie rogue ability to another class 9 levels earlier, and for free!?!? Yes ninja can get this ability to but later then rogues.


What need does the swashbuckler have for this Rogue Trade Mark that it couldn't get it the traditional way of taking 10 rogue levels? Rogues, duelist and others for sure can use crippling strike much much earlier the Swashbuckler who has a higher AB, Higher AC and bonus damage from int and other abilities.

I would like the answer.

1. You have access to the QC forums, you can read your answer. The same concern was raised by a QCer. Here i will provide you a link Subject: Swashbuckler improvements
2. Why post with your DM account and ask this? If the DMs are concerned they can post in the QC thread which is the reason it is open to them. If you are posting as a DM to accomplish anything else, it wont happen.

Epic presicion does not have the same "mechanical value" for SBs as it does for rogues. I thought about giving it a new name and description to avoid such comments but the feat is hardcoded. To recreate the feat advanced scripting would be needed.

SB and Rogues are different types. The first is a fighter the other a support/utility. An SB will need to be efficient at some point against undead, a rogue can sneak past it. The EP at level 12 kills of any thought about making an SA attack character with so many levels of SB - you lose too much SA dice and gain nothing. This change will take nothing away from rogues, at least the way i see it. Multiclassing any rogue with 12 levels of SB will make a worse character mechanically.

Hopefuly, this change will allow for SBs past level5.

[DM Hera]

Can some one explain why an Epic rogue hall mark power was given away to this class at level 12 for free?


In order to get Epic Percision you have to take Crippling Strike a level 10 rogue ability. Further you can only take Epic Percision at level 21 or higher.

Yet we are going to give this ability for FREE to swashbucklers pre-epic level and with out the cost of Crippling Strike?

Rogues had to BUY Crippling Strike and Epic Perision with feats. The swashbuckler just gets it for dinging a level? Along with all its previous abilities and abilities to follow.

Once again we are giving away a unquie rogue ability to another class 9 levels earlier, and for free!?!? Yes ninja can get this ability to but later then rogues.


What need does the swashbuckler have for this Rogue Trade Mark that it couldn't get it the traditional way of taking 10 rogue levels? Rogues, duelist and others for sure can use crippling strike much much earlier the Swashbuckler who has a higher AB, Higher AC and bonus damage from int and other abilities.

I would like the answer.

Essentially because nobody will favor splashing Swashbuckler 12 over Rogue 10 for grabbing Epic Precision. It's a quality of life change to increase Swashbuckler damage to be more on par with other builds and make the class more attractive to play end game (giving them a very small amount of extra damage against crit immune targets, I think on an int-based Swash we're talking 4-5 extra damage a swing at level 30). For example, previous to this change, Swashbucklers that were pure dex/int focused and using a piercing or slashing weapon often dealt 0 damage to skeletons before level 20. This is not an exaggeration.

This is compared to a rogue which will gain at LEAST 5d6 / 2 sneak attack damage per hit on the first flurry, and up to 15d6 / 2 or more if they are full blown sneak attackers). This is on top of the other perks of going 10 Rogue that a 12 Swash won't get like Uncanny Dodge, access to UMD, and trapfinding.

The feat was recycled to Swashbucklers for the sake of the mechanic alone--it may be called Epic Precision, but the way it's been implemented for this particular class is nothing exactly epic. Rogues haven't been cheated out of something here, as there was never an agreement that only rogues would have access to the ability to partially bypass crit immunity in the first place. As developers we often have to use the mechanics we have available to us to tailor the game's balance, and in this case it was decided that Swashbuckler needed the extra power to be on par with builds of other types.

I think I can count the number of characters that currently have more than 5 levels of Swashbuckler on one hand, whereas the characters with 10 or more rogue levels are as numerous as the stars, and Rogue will continue to be one of the most popular base classes in the game regardless of this change.

I hope that helps to clarify things.

No offense boss, but I think you guys got to re count the number of rogues with more then 10 levels of rogue. They are not numerous of the stars and have not been since your major update. Rogue is primary dipped for 3 levels here to gain access to Expose Weakness or qualify for other PRC's where certain skills are needed.

I get the want to improve the qauility of life for swashbucklers, though a rogues quality of life would vastly improve as well if it was GIVEN AWAY at level 12. So can we expect rogues to this at level 12 to improve their life? We have to remember swashbucklers have an higher AB then rogues so hit more often, have Int to damage and a few other nifty tricks to add to their damage which easily equate to the mean average of some sneak dice.

What particular annoys me on this situation is that EPIC FEAT was given for free, the swash buckler has to PAY NOTHING for the ability, while the Rogue and Ninja both have to pay 2 feats. Can these classes expect a refund?

As for the class having a monopoly on Epic Precision, I think it does. That is a unique feature of the class and what makes the class unique and a reason to take the class so deep. The argument on this server why we do not have "Spell /day" items for sale is to not take the uniqueness of casters away. It is why we can not buy Death Ward 1/day. Or Rings with Bullstength (15) 2/day. Because we want to persevere a unique flavor of the caster classes and forcing a need for them. However we throw that out the window for rogues? Which the ability is preassigned by game original design and pnp.

Trap finding is useless here as most traps in area's even epic areas do not require dc24 search checks so people just use pets on it.

UMD is access through other sources or take rogue levels like they should to gain the ability.

and uncanny dodge has reported glitches still not dealt with the largest being that it does not trigger until after the Initiative roll. However it was decided to give swashbucklers Evasion on top of all these other perks?



I get the quality of life, If that is the case, time to give the feat to rogues for free and give it to them at level 1.

[DM Hera]

Hidden: show

Can some one explain why an Epic rogue hall mark power was given away to this class at level 12 for free?


In order to get Epic Percision you have to take Crippling Strike a level 10 rogue ability. Further you can only take Epic Percision at level 21 or higher.

Yet we are going to give this ability for FREE to swashbucklers pre-epic level and with out the cost of Crippling Strike?

Rogues had to BUY Crippling Strike and Epic Perision with feats. The swashbuckler just gets it for dinging a level? Along with all its previous abilities and abilities to follow.


Once again we are giving away a unquie rogue ability to another class 9 levels earlier, and for free!?!? Yes ninja can get this ability to but later then rogues.


What need does the swashbuckler have for this Rogue Trade Mark that it couldn't get it the traditional way of taking 10 rogue levels? Rogues, duelist and others for sure can use crippling strike much much earlier the Swashbuckler who has a higher AB, Higher AC and bonus damage from int and other abilities.

I would like the answer.

1. You have access to the QC forums, you can read your answer. The same concern was raised by a QCer. Here i will provide you a link Subject: Swashbuckler improvements
2. Why post with your DM account and ask this? If the DMs are concerned they can post in the QC thread which is the reason it is open to them. If you are posting as a DM to accomplish anything else, it wont happen.

Epic presicion does not have the same "mechanical value" for SBs as it does for rogues. I thought about giving it a new name and description to avoid such comments but the feat is hardcoded. To recreate the feat advanced scripting would be needed.

SB and Rogues are different types. The first is a fighter the other a support/utility. An SB will need to be efficient at some point against undead, a rogue can sneak past it. The EP at level 12 kills of any thought about making an SA attack character with so many levels of SB - you lose too much SA dice and gain nothing. This change will take nothing away from rogues, at least the way i see it. Multiclassing any rogue with 12 levels of SB will make a worse character mechanically.

Hopefuly, this change will allow for SBs past level5.

Actually I do not have access to that LINK. I'm not authorized, I have no access to this whole discussion and I personally messaged you about this ability when you posted this yesterday, where you challenged my view in private and I rebutted but you went mute.


Now as to your points, I disagree about the difference in needs. The SB has many damage sources. The Damage from Int alone is equivalent to a D6 sneak attack, and we have to keep in mind that the SB will hit more often, because of its higher AB and its mega bonus to flank.

As for the Rogue not needing to deal with undead is untrue. Rogues cannot open a chest with out unstealthing thus the toon has to fight the undead bosses all the same as everyone else. If a rogue every ten levels got 1second off its stealth cool down then its possible to open a chest, blink and run.. but even blink and run to bait bosses can get you hit by caster bosses which equal death. And we have lots of caster undead.

the worst part is you gave it for free.

Rogues and Ninjas have to spend 2 feats. It would be something if just dinging x level as rogue got you the feat too. but its not. This is where the horrible imbalance comes to my sight more then anything. Besides taking a unique feature. =)

Is your intent here good? yes.. but this way? I am not convinced it is fair at all.

[Endelyon]

I went ahead and ran some analytics (which admittedly I haven't done since July) just to make sure I wasn't talking out of my rear. Here are the figures for class levels on PCs from accounts that have logged in during the last 30 days. Ignore the percentages as they're not indicative of anything.

[class]
Anointed Knight - 137 (6.55%)
Arcane Archer - 151 (7.21%)
Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep - 592 (28.28%)
Arcane Trickster - 192 (9.17%)
Archmage - 199 (9.51%)
Assassin - 741 (35.40%)
Barbarian - 830 (39.66%)
Bard - 1492 (71.29%)
Battle Rager - 31 (1.48%)
Bear Warrior - 33 (1.58%)
Black Flame Zealot - 34 (1.62%)
Blackguard - 168 (8.03%)
Blood Magus - 235 (11.23%)
Bodyguard - 96 (4.59%)
Breach Gnome - 7 (0.33%)
Cavestalker - 20 (0.96%)
Cleric - 1492 (71.29%)
Daggerspell Mage - 84 (4.01%)
Dervish - 104 (4.97%)
Dissonant Chord - 56 (2.68%)
Divine Champion - 93 (4.44%)
Divine Seeker - 3 (0.14%)
Dragon Warrior - 33 (1.58%)
Dragonslayer - 111 (5.30%)
Dread Pirate - 39 (1.86%)
Druid - 770 (36.79%)
Duelist - 75 (3.58%)
Dwarven Defender - 129 (6.16%)
Eldritch Knight - 222 (10.61%)
Elemental Archer - 124 (5.92%)
Favored Soul - 859 (41.04%)
Fighter - 2868 (137.03%)
Fist of the Forest - 24 (1.15%)
Frenzied Berserker - 195 (9.32%)
Frost Mage - 113 (5.40%)
Ghost-Faced Killer - 32 (1.53%)
Guild Thief - 80 (3.82%)
Harper Agent - 28 (1.34%)
Hellfire Warlock - 34 (1.62%)
Hierophant - 151 (7.21%)
Hospitaler - 54 (2.58%)
Invisible Blade - 41 (1.96%)
Man-at-Arms - 240 (11.47%)
Master Alchemist - 96 (4.59%)
Master of Disguises - 8 (0.38%)
Moeninglord of Lathander - 44 (2.10%)
Monk - 1143 (54.61%)
Order of the Bow Initiate - 29 (1.39%)
Paladin - 594 (28.38%)
Pale Master - 352 (16.82%)
Phantom - 107 (5.11%)
Ranger - 1145 (54.71%)
Red Wizard ** - 38 (1.82%)
Rogue - 1513 (72.29%)
Sacred Fist - 163 (7.79%)
Shadow Adept - 93 (4.44%)
Shadowdancer - 348 (16.63%)
Silverstar - 14 (0.67%)
Sorcerer - 402 (19.21%)
Spirit Shaman - 266 (12.71%)
Stormlord - 40 (1.91%)
Stormsinger - 73 (3.49%)
Swashbuckler - 241 (11.51%)
Techsmith of Gond - 96 (4.59%)
Tempest - 111 (5.30%)
Thaumaturge - 122 (5.83%)
Thayan Knight - 15 (0.72%)
Warlock - 934 (44.62%)
Warpriest - 34 (1.62%)
Warrior of Darkness - 81 (3.87%)
Warsling Sniper - 19 (0.91%)
Weapon Master - 432 (20.64%)
Whirling Dervish - 102 (4.87%)
Wilderness Stalker - 28 (1.34%)
Wizard - 1770 (84.57%)

So we can see from this information that over 1500 PCs in peoples' vaults that logged in during late Dec./early Jan. have rogue levels in their builds, and only 241 have Swashbuckler levels. It's the third most popular base class behind Fighter and Wizard.

The "epic" feat (again, not so epic in a Swashbuckler's kit) was given for free because Swashbuckler sucks, and that's all there is to it. The class's power needed to be increased to make the class more attractive.

In my opinion Rogue could use some tweaking to make it more attractive for pure-classing (who in their right mind now goes 30 rogue as opposed to taking Shadowdancer or Assassin levels at some point? There's pretty much no way currently to build an effective sneak attacker without unlocking HIPS outside of Phantom!), but from my point of view it certainly doesn't need any more love in the first few levels.

[mrm3ntalist]

I do not have access to that LINK. I'm not authorized, I have no access to this whole discussion

ADMs had access up until 2 days ago.

Still you havent answered why are you posting here as an ADM for matters that concern you as a player?

and I personally messaged you about this ability when you posted this yesterday, where you challenged my view in private and I rebutted but you went mute.

I dont have the time to privately discuss such things in pms with everyone. Like i said before, If you are concerned as a DM about this, there are the DM forums. If you are concerned as a player here is where you can post with your player account.

Now as to your points, I disagree about the difference in needs. The SB has many damage sources. The Damage from Int alone is equivalent to a D6 sneak attack, and we have to keep in mind that the SB will hit more often, because of its higher AB and its mega bonus to flank.

As for the Rogue not needing to deal with undead is untrue. Rogues cannot open a chest with out unstealthing thus the toon has to fight the undead bosses all the same as everyone else. If a rogue every ten levels got 1second off its stealth cool down then its possible to open a chest, blink and run.. but even blink and run to bait bosses can get you hit by caster bosses which equal death. And we have lots of caster undead.

the worst part is you gave it for free.

Rogues and Ninjas have to spend 2 feats. It would be something if just dinging x level as rogue got you the feat too. but its not. This is where the horrible imbalance comes to my sight more then anything. Besides taking a unique feature. =)

Is your intent here good? yes.. but this way? I am not convinced it is fair at all.

There is no way for me to explain to you how the feat works for SBs and how for rogues. Armor skin is an epic feat. it gives 1 AC. So does Heavy armor optimization, so does Luck of heroes. What those feats do for a character is different though. Heavy armor optimization is useless for rogues for example.

I would share your concern if we gave the Epic precision to a sneak attack class/prc. That is not the case.

[DM Hera]

Endelyon,

I see the same numbers but they are not reflective of the server. I will gladly sit in game with you one day and we can look at every player sheet and we will both see that Majority of rogue levels are Dips. I am not trying to steer you wrong or argue that the class is not used.

We will see 1/3 of the server have 3 levels in rogue and that is it.

we will see maybe one player with 12 levels of rogue

We will not likely see one player with 20 levels of rogue

We will be hard pressed to find a player with 15 levels of rogue.


The common sneak is Ranger Assissan Rogue. SD, rogue, arcane tricksters, invsible blades.


I get the idea of the goal of what you all sought out to do, I do not think we had to do it at the cost of another classes Trade Mark ability, (they have a few but this is one of the biggies) most of all, I find it unfair we force the other classes to pay for it and SB not.


But thank you for taking your time to reply to me, from what I understand this is going in.