Would u still play on BGTSCC if yr Toon had only "X" Lives?

[aaron22]

saying that real deaths are immersion breaking is unbelievable. totally unbelievable. every forgotten realms fiction writer should be ashamed.




didnt malice die in a house full of clerics in a city full of clerics. you dont think there was a few that could see a value in having her alive again when all think she is dead.

[Steve]

Forcing people to give up their characters or their stories before they themselves are ready to do so, would almost certainly drive people away. I've seen that happen, it sucks.

I really do not want to come off as being understood that I wish to force people to give up their Characters.

Instead, shift the paradigm and the sandbox to: "force" people to keep their Characters living.

Those that wish to play conflict avoiding Characters can still live great, conflict-avoidant lives, apart from the violent aspect of the Forgotten Realms setting. Candlekeep has a rich history of study, for example. White Mask Theater has plays and bardic epicness. Totally fulfilling!

On the other hand, if you step out in the World, which is frickin' dangerous and that danger stems from the ability to lose your head in it/over it, well...don't pretend RP that this FACT is not applicable to your PC, nor your RP.

By denying the setting, AND the context of Real Death, is literally denying the Game.

So, again, to say clearly: one is not forced to give up their Character, but instead, asked to RP within a milieu that supports, in weighty terms, the reality of conflict!

(and if you think the Forgotten Realms is a story without conflict of epic proportions along every step...well then, we truly are playing different games here. No offense.)

[Face]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Jtpf8N5IDE

[Nemni]

Why not take small steps towards consequence, instead of such a huge change? See where it goes. Incremental changes on an established community seems wiser to me

[amber91]

Steve, while I understand and agree with where you are going with the sentiment and I think VillageGreenWitch said it best "I'd love to see characters behave responsibly", I think one of your key premises is inaccurate (the quote below)

the lackadaisical attitudes around consequences for "staying alive,"

I am about to have my first 30 on the server, but I can atest the journey has not been smooth, and nowhere along that point did I treat life and death casually. Nor did I ever find people who had "lackadaisical attitudes" toward death. In the rare few cases where one person was more interested in Risk, there is one person who is averse to it, but the overall sentiment is that Death (as currently implemented) is very painful, and no one wants a party wipe. The only time I met people who didn't care about Death, they had recently leveled (and cannot de-level) or they are already 30... Death is painful for everyone I met pre-30, especially painful for those with ECL and multiclass penalty.


My experiences, albeit limited as a "new" player of a couple months, is that the current game atmosphere supports chad878262's notion "to encourage people to group up and go adventure together"... the only thing that I see that discourages that notion are POWERBUILDs and IMBALANCED CLASSES/ABILITIES/MAGIC. As per VillageGreenWitch, " serious cutdown of magic and overpowered feats and items, massive cutdown on monster OPness as well" would go a loong way to encourage grouping up and discourage "IWIN @ALLSERVER" prevalent munchkinism that seems to be in philosophical opposition to the RP environment the server is trying to foster. Again the two worlds are in constant opposition, and bringing permdeath into the equation makes each side more extreme, depending on how it's implemented.

It would make the "RP" more meta, it would weed the casual gamer unto a power gamer.

So what is the character-situation threshold for most people to feel "lackadaisical attitudes around consequences for "staying alive"? At what point do you as a player feel Death/Gold/XP doesn't matter enough?

Hidden: show

This is actually a trick question. Because if you answer any number, or give any reason other than "RP", then basically in my opinion you are metagaming.
And the metagaming by you and others around you is what is taking the gravity away from death and consequences in the game.

Hence the premise is flawed. Because the root of the problem (lackadaisical attitudes around consequences) sounds like metagaming. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

So unless you address metagaming in a consistent, reliable, enforceable, sustainable way, any suggestions for permadeath will likely exacerbate prevalent metagaming issues.


Truth? It is what you lie to yourself.

[aaron22]

not being able to die makes every deed your character does insignificant. if you really think about it. the way it is currently, it is just a game. like candyland or monopoly. and that is fine, but it is nothing more than that. it is still fun.

i do not think that a permadeath system would work as a successful system, but that doesnt mean that steve is incorrect. it would take a very specific mindset to have it work and that is just not that realistic in a large population. lag death is a real problem, but i do not think being unprepared is a viable problem. i see it as adding even more reality to the setting.

those that can make it to 30 in this type of system would be worthy of the epic title. make RcR gone too and you have even more again.

[Face]

The qq fest would be so real if something like this was enforced...
Some people just dont want to have any thing bad happen to there toons and thats fine.
You wil just have to find people that have the same mind set and play with them.

And for some that is playing relaxed with no fear of death what so ever.
For others its always risky/sweaty as they do like the fear of perma death.

I my self am a bit inbetween , I like the fear of perma death but i wont perma for players that where salty about any form of rp in the past.
So i just do it for my self in certain situations with players i trust and like to play with or agenst.

This server has many difrent people logging in with difrent play styles and yes some times that makes for extreemly strange situations but what ever just do what ever you like have fun and laugh about it with your friends and play on.

[aaron22]

you want to take away powerbuilding. make players roll up their toons. want to take away server knowledge metagaming. make more "random" encounters in the environment.

that seems like a lot of work for the admin.

[Steve]

Why not take small steps towards consequence, instead of such a huge change? See where it goes. Incremental changes on an established community seems wiser to me

I agree.

Thus, why I say take a system that is already in place—Permastrikes—and make them more commonplace.

How do you accomplish that?

1. PvP/CvC/RP/etc. conflict, overseen by a DM, mostly likely incurs a Permastrike.
2. DM Events, where actions have consequences under the guidance/judgement of a DM, may incur a Permastrike.

Now, you may ask: how does a PC even know they have permastrikes, and isn't permastrikes just something to punish Players?

No, it is to limit immortality, and to place a challenge within the milieu that, if your Character is the type to enter into conflict—be it direct violence or not—then, realize THAT carries the ultimate consequence.

I think any PC, RP'd with a sense of realism, would understand that their actions have risk v reward to them. It is us Players that shrug this off, because, well...because we so easily can!

[thids]

The qq fest would be so real if something like this was enforced...
Some people just dont want to have any thing bad happen to there toons and thats fine.
You wil just have to find people that have the same mind set and play with them.

And for some that is playing relaxed with no fear of death what so ever.
For others its always risky/sweaty as they do like the fear of perma death.

I my self am a bit inbetween , I like the fear of perma death but i wont perma for players that where salty about any form of rp in the past.
So i just do it for my self in certain situations with players i trust and like to play with or agenst.

This server has many difrent people logging in with difrent play styles and yes some times that makes for extreemly strange situations but what ever just do what ever you like have fun and laugh about it with your friends and play on.

[Sapper Woody]

While I'm not sure enforcing permadeath is the answer, I would love to see death be more meaningful. As best as I can, I try to play my character as if he can stay dead. I don't rush headlong into dangerous situations where death is likely.

However, I feel that if someone is playing "the antagonist", they should be forced to stay dead if the RP calls for it. I don't wish to cause any conflict, so I'll not name names or characters, but a while back there was someone who was going around killing people (completely within the PvP rules; no complaints there). They ended up becoming the antagonist, and pretty famous. They were killed three or four times before they stayed dead. In a case like that, I think that the person who is playing "the bad guy" should go into it knowing that they are going to be hunted and killed eventually. And they should stay dead.

For me, I will readily admit that I've become attached to my character, and do not want him to be permadead. But, on the flip side, as I said, I play him that way. He's been invited to fight Icehaup and turned it down because there wasn't any cleric of sufficient power going along. When he leaves to some area that is potentially dangerous, he tells people so that they can come rescue his body if need be. Things like that.

On a note that Hoihe brought up, you actually get into a different argument when you start talking about how easy it is to be brought back to life. And that is the equivalency argument. I, like many, do not look at my character as his sheet level, but as half his sheet level. To me, it makes no sense that we'd have all these level 30 characters running around when some of the most famous names in D&D lore are levels 12, 15, 16, etc. But, I don't want to derail the thread by delving too deep into that argument.

But, on that note, in a Forgotten Realms setting, death is nearly always permanent. Being revived is a rare thing, not the norm. Even if you have someone powerful enough to cast the spell, it cost diamonds to cast.

All in all, I'm not for a flat permadeath system. But I do readily agree that death needs to be more meaningful, and that there are some situations that a person should realize they are entering into a permadeath scenario.

[aaron22]

However, I feel that if someone is playing "the antagonist", they should be forced to stay dead if the RP calls for it. I don't wish to cause any conflict, so I'll not name names or characters, but a while back there was someone who was going around killing people (completely within the PvP rules; no complaints there). They ended up becoming the antagonist, and pretty famous. They were killed three or four times before they stayed dead. In a case like that, I think that the person who is playing "the bad guy" should go into it knowing that they are going to be hunted and killed eventually. And they should stay dead.

switch perspectives and you become the antagonist. two sides to every story.

[dedude]

But, on that note, in a Forgotten Realms setting, death is nearly always permanent. Being revived is a rare thing, not the norm. Even if you have someone powerful enough to cast the spell, it cost diamonds to cast.

Arguing anything else is kinda ridiculous. Death is a very real thing in FR, and especially on the sword coast.

This discussion pops up with regular intervals, and the arguments on both sides are always the same. People hear "perma death" and think it means "my character can perma die at any moment". But such an extreme implementation would obviously never happen here. Rather it would probably be a very very slow decline towards death, probably so slow that it would be extremely rare for it ever to happen to a character, and then only if that character was played intentionally reckless. But it would be something looming over every character. Something that makes the blood pump just a bit faster during tough battles. Something that roots your character better as an actual person in the world, instead of an immortal cartoon in an arcade game. It would be something that influences how you RP your character, a measure of growth over time if you will.

As I recall, previous discussions of this ended with suggestions of making it an opt-in system for new characters. At least at first, so players could get a taste of playing with it. I would definitely be behind such a thing.

[aaron22]

if i were playing the "opt in" system, and i do not think i would be alone in this, i would not take as seriously anyone who has not opted in.

[chad878262]

I believe the request was for an opt in system where the character is given greater XP rewards as well though, which would require a bit more to implement and might frustrate those that get involved in PvP where one player has opted in and the other hasn't. So it would require not only the scripting/coding to implement such a change, but a whole new set of server rules to handle the interactions between characters.