Suggestion: Double Rest Timer Cooldown for Overall Balance

[Valefort]

I think this issue can be tackled with different area designs, zones where blasting is the way to go because all physical damage is negated, zones filled with Nishruus and ofc zones with various skills use.. something divine gishes generally lack.

[Steve]

Well, yeah...but I had a secret hope that a more simple, direct and very little time consuming option might create a fundamental change...for the Good of game play.

I admit, I could be wrong! But I do truly believe a situation of 24/7 Buffed Life 4 Ever is probably a bad thing, in general, in terms of mechanical balance.

[aaron22]

i think a couple of players that already know every inch of the server. every strength and every weakness of every foe one could face may not be the most accurate to evaluate the difficulty of the server. and then what they need to do to repair this.

dynamic spawning is a great start. perhaps now we could use a dynamic stat system for several high end places. something where you don't "know" what buffs and tactics to use to gain the advantage. of course the mobs still have full access to your character sheet so it is the mob that has every advantage.

[Blame The Rogue]

If casters/gishes would need to memorize more buff spells to last a longer timer, then they cannot memorize DC spells. That changed the situation, and reduces the power, or changes the power, of such builds.

Direct damage burst spells like Fireball are useless on this server. A fact that doesn't change even if you apply metamagic such as Empower or Maximise.

Save or die spells like Wail of Banshee can work here, but those require a highly dedicated DC based builds and are only valid if you can herd mobs and remain lucky with your rolls. The mobs might roll high, and your spell is spent doing jackall.

Typical gish builds have no mechanical reason to memorize direct damage burst spells or save or die spells. Even their ability scores are far better spent on things that directly increase damage/AB/AC. Therefore gishes will remain the same, they will just toss away the few spells they got for RP flavor and carry on focusing on being a proper gish. Thus mechanically speaking nothing has truly changed for the gishes of divine and arcane variety.

What you are punishing, presumably for the crimes of gishes, are the 'proper' D&D spellcasters.

I find it interesting that those that solo the most find this suggestion so horrid!

I find it more interesting that I have to keep pointing out the same facts page after page.

offensive spellcasters were deemed too powerful, and mobs were given....not so standard immunities and resistances. then, as time went on, no one played offensive spellcasters. now, spell damages were increased to try and get more ppl playing offensive casters. we see what happened here, yes?

and what would happen to the number of offensive spellcasters if the rest timer is increased? i can make a fairly accurate guess

[Flasmix]

Could always simply bring back more dispels as many were removed.

No thx, don't need any more of this garbage.

[Marathados]

Get rid of the rest timer altogether. Make it so you can only rest at an inn by hiring a room. If you want to rest outside, make it risky - unless you are with a specialist like a ranger. No resting randomly on city streets or in hostile dungeons.

I do like that proposition! Dispelling foes are still a problem with the vancian though.

[Sun Wukong]

I think this issue can be tackled with different area designs, zones where blasting is the way to go because all physical damage is negated, zones filled with Nishruus and ofc zones with various skills use.. something divine gishes generally lack.

Part of me feels that the damage dice of 'direct damage burst spells' like Fireball should be doubled.

For example, this is what a standard Fireball looks like: You unleash a fiery projectile that explodes upon all within the area of effect for 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level, to a maximum of 10d6. (Default: 35~ on avarage, Empower: 52.5~ on avarage, Maximise: 60. Reflex save for half.) [Level 3 spell, checks for spell resistance.]

And this is what I would actually suggest it to become: You unleash a fiery projectile that explodes upon all within the area of effect for 2d6 points of fire damage per caster level, to a maximum of 20d6. (Default: 70~ on avarage, Empower: 105~ on avarage, Maximise: 120. Reflex save for half.) [Level 3 spell, checks for spell resistance.]

As another example, this is what a standard Horrid Wilting looks like: All living creatures (Creatures who are not constructs or undead) apart from the caster within the area of effect take 1d6 points of magic damage per caster level, to a maximum of 20d6. (Default: 70~, Empower: 105~ avarage. Fortitude save for half.) [Level 8 spell, checks for spell resistance.]

And this is what I would actually suggest it to become: All living creatures (Creatures who are not constructs or undead) apart from the caster within the area of effect take 2d6 points of magic damage per caster level, to a maximum of 40d6. (Default: 140~, Empower: 210~ avarage. Fortitude save for half.) [Level 8 spell, checks for spell resistance.]

--- The current custom dice cap for Fireball is 15d6, and the same for Horrid Wilting is 27d6. Both increase by 1d6 per caster level. ---

Anyhow, the PC class hit die is automatically maximised, and the same appears to hold true for the mobs found on this server. This automatically means that by default an avarage damage roll of a CL 10 Fireball is unlikely to kill a level 10 creature or character with hit die of 1d4 per level. It is 35~ avarage damage against maximised hit point pool of 40 before the creature's or character's constitution modifier is even factored in.

In a game of tabletop, it would be avarage 35~ damage against avarage hit point pool of 25~, which has much higher chance of slaying the target of the spell before constitution modifiers are even factored in. [ The damage dealt by the spell is about 40% higher than the base hit die. ]

With my suggested change it would be 70~ damage on avarage against the hit point pool of 40. [ The damage dealt by the spell is about 75% higher than the base hit die. ]

This is not a perfect fix, it actually increases the damage of the direct burst damage spells quite considerably compared to the tabletop. But at least there would be a reason to fling an offensive spell, and it would make mob casters far more threatening than what they are today. And if the mob casters would become far too strong, then the caster of level of their direct damage spells could be lowered if not outright halved.

[Lighters]

I think this issue can be tackled with different area designs, zones where blasting is the way to go because all physical damage is negated, zones filled with Nishruus and ofc zones with various skills use.. something divine gishes generally lack.

Part of me feels that the damage dice of 'direct damage burst spells' like Fireball should be doubled.

For example, this is what a standard Fireball looks like: You unleash a fiery projectile that explodes upon all within the area of effect for 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level, to a maximum of 10d6. (Default: 35~ on avarage, Empower: 52.5~ on avarage, Maximise: 60. Reflex save for half.) [Level 3 spell, checks for spell resistance.]

And this is what I would actually suggest it to become: You unleash a fiery projectile that explodes upon all within the area of effect for 2d6 points of fire damage per caster level, to a maximum of 20d6. (Default: 70~ on avarage, Empower: 105~ on avarage, Maximise: 120. Reflex save for half.) [Level 3 spell, checks for spell resistance.]

As another example, this is what a standard Horrid Wilting looks like: All living creatures (Creatures who are not constructs or undead) apart from the caster within the area of effect take 1d6 points of magic damage per caster level, to a maximum of 20d6. (Default: 70~, Empower: 105~ avarage. Fortitude save for half.) [Level 8 spell, checks for spell resistance.]

And this is what I would actually suggest it to become: All living creatures (Creatures who are not constructs or undead) apart from the caster within the area of effect take 2d6 points of magic damage per caster level, to a maximum of 40d6. (Default: 140~, Empower: 210~ avarage. Fortitude save for half.) [Level 8 spell, checks for spell resistance.]

--- The current custom dice cap for Fireball is 15d6, and the same for Horrid Wilting is 27d6. Both increase by 1d6 per caster level. ---

Anyhow, the PC class hit die is automatically maximised, and the same appears to hold true for the mobs found on this server. This automatically means that by default an avarage damage roll of a CL 10 Fireball is unlikely to kill a level 10 creature or character with hit die of 1d4 per level. It is 35~ avarage damage against maximised hit point pool of 40 before the creature's or character's constitution modifier is even factored in.

In a game of tabletop, it would be avarage 35~ damage against avarage hit point pool of 25~, which has much higher chance of slaying the target if the spell before constitution modifiers are even factored in. [ The damage dealt by the spell is about 40% higher than the base hit die. ]

With my suggested change it would be 70~ damage on avarage against the hit point pool of 40. [ The damage dealt by the spell is about 75% higher than the base hit die. ]

This is not a perfect fix, it actually increases the damage of the direct burst damage spells quite considerably compared to the tabletop. But at least there would be a reason to fling an offensive spell, and it would make mob casters far more threatening than what they are today. And if the mob casters would become far too strong, then the caster of level of their direct damage spells could be lowered if not outright halved.

This combined with an extended rest timer would really harken back to old tabletop sessions for me.

[Blame The Rogue]

or we could add a new spell named greater fireball in a higher spell circle

[Sun Wukong]

or we could add a new spell named greater fireball in a higher spell circle

You mean a spell like Wall of Fire, or Greater Fireburst, or Firebrand, or Delayed Blast Fireball, or Incendiary Cloud, or Meteor Swarm? This is not an issue of spell level, it is merely an issue of damage dealth.

Alternatively I guess you could just cut down the Hp given to the avarage roll rounded up to the nearest integer

d4 => 3 HP per level
d6 => 4 HP per level
d8 => 5 HP per level
d10 => 6 HP per level
d12 => 7 HP per level

[Tsidkenu]

While the OP has been driven off track by a discussion of Blaster spellcasting, aren't we all forgetting that Bugsidian, in their infinite wisdom, not only decided to maximise PC hitpoint rolls but NPCs too? And BG mob design bloats it even more just to make certain areas a 'challenge'. That's why no-one plays a non-warlock blaster, because there's not really any point to wasting all your spells just to kill 1 guy.

[Steve]

Even an AoE DC caster will run out of spells, soon enough. And though with each mob collecting kill, maybe even 10 mobs at a time, Time will run out.

But hey! Easy peesy rest spot just ahead, to coincide with the super short timer! Rinse and repeat!

Imagine a game world where a caster (must) delivers the nuke to the main fiend/boss, the melee fighter carved the path to it, the rogue opens the path when shuttered and blocked (and gets the looty-lootz), and the Cleric heals and protects/blesses their path forward. EVERYONE has not just valuable use, but unique use.

Right now, with very very very little gimping, I can make single Build that can fulfill all those functions at once. Balanced?!?

Now, imagine if my said build would lose their spells over time, and be stuck 3/4s into the dungeon crawl, no short timer to save her, no nearby rest spot. HELP?!?

The difference between these 2 options is what is unfairly influencing current and future Content. Am I wrong?!?

[Sun Wukong]

Right now, with very very very little gimping, I can make single Build that can fulfill all those functions at once. Balanced?!?

Tiefling Fighter 14/Frenzied Berserker 6/Weapon Master 7/Shadowdancer 3, with cross-classed UMD for wands. You got the AB, you got the damage, you got the buffs, you got healing via vampiric weapons and healing kits, and if things ever go south you can always just sneak away.

So please, tell me, how does the increased rest timer improve the over all balance? How does it prevent the above build from doing it all by themselves.

And actually, without the rest timer or limitations, it would be viable to play a blaster with the standard offensive spells. This used to be the case on this server years ago. You emptied all your spells on that one foe, rested, and rinse and repeated it to ad nauseam.

But yeah, the rest timer has the biggest impact on 'non-warlock' blasters.

As for increasing the base damage die of the spells. I previously suggested 2d6, but 1d10 could be a better match to return the offensive direct damage spells to the D&D baseline. It is just little below the base line. And yeah, we should not forget that clear majority of the direct damage spells allow a save to take half-damage, and in the case of reflex save, no damage.

[Steve]

That build will get dispelled and dropped because of weak Saves.

[Sun Wukong]

That build will get dispelled and dropped because of weak Saves.

Make it, learn to play it, and witness how few dispells there are today. Not to mention that a caster ain't going to fling a dispel to a target it cannot see. And not forgetting that since it is capable to do loot runs on its own, it can afford to spam UMD. I would throw you a build, but the builder is down for me.

Edit: and if you must have slightly higher saves, you can always drop Weapon Master for Divine Champion and free a feat or two to be spent to improve your lowest saves.