Suggestion: Double Rest Timer Cooldown for Overall Balance

[Steve]

Hi dedude!!

But seriously, here is my suggestion: it would seem that Magic, be it Divine or Arcane, just puts a yuuuge issue on Builds and Power Balance, because of the fact that—and unlike in PnP D&D were Resting is an Issue in the hands of the DM—Resting is too common and mostly with ease to find and do, no matter where you are in the Server (except when in DM Events, who, like PnP, control Resting as a prerogative).

Right now, unless I'm mistaken, Resting Cooldown Timer is set to 45 seconds per Level, with a max Timer of 22 minutes between Rests at Level 30.

What makes melee-based Builds so "weak," or let's say non-Casting / non-UMD Builds, is that their archetype of NOT having to rest and NOT having to be concerned with replacing Magic, is more or less nullified by the Ease of Rest that BGTSCC currently employs.

Most Dungeon Areas can easily be completed in 22 minutes or less, thus, a Caster Build can rinse and repeat Dungeon after Dungeon, and regaining Full Power after each effort. It would seem that THAT is what unbalances the Server, that Magic is far to easy to use, to regain, and to rely upon. Especially for those many, many, many Spells with 60 sec / Level duration, where at Level 30, the Character would be 14 RL minutes without the required spells...and THAT is something special!

Imagine, for a moment, if Casters burned out, and Melee based builds nearly never did. Instead of Casters being able to Rest and ReBuff just before going into the Balor, imagine what the Balance Structure would be if Casters (and Gishes, especially Gishes!) had to CONSERVE their strengths, in order to provide their Capabilities for the Big Fight.

Thus, what I'm proposing would still provide Casters with a value, since currently, they are the most powerful Builds on BGTSCC, however, it would provide Melee based Builds with a Lasting Power that Casters/Gishes could never maintain. I would hope that having a Doubled Rest Timer would "encourage" more Partying/Grouping, and as well, more strategy in being able to "win" in both PvE and PvP. It might also provide a new paradigm were, unlike now, Casters are constantly buffed up to the nines, expecting PvP actions, which more or less makes them invincible to quick attacks, especially by those builds/characters who would specialize in this, if we were playing PnP.

A side consequence to this Doubling of the Rest Timer is probably more scroll/wand/UMD use, thus a pretty big Gold Sink. Perhaps that will hurt newbies far too much to warrant such a change, but...Gold is rather unlimited overall, so....???

SHOOT ME DOWN!!! lol. Though it may very well annoy many the Caster Player, my initial feeling about this Doubled Rest Timer is that it will make Magic use not just more important, but more realistic to the game of D&D.

[Sun Wukong]

SHOOT ME DOWN!!!

There are 'weak' melee classes with abilities that are limited in the number of times those can be used per rest. As an example I could bring up Barbarian's Rage, which provides a short burst of boons you are unlikely to recover while inside a dungeon. You need to save it for the moment you really need it. We also shouldn't forget that it will not last long enough without some feat investment, or a rather expensive items that grants Extra and Extend Rage feats.

Then look at 'weak' melee classes with 4 spell level spell books such as Rangers and Paladins. Their spells greatly assist them, but their spell progression is slow. For large part of the first twenty levels you are trying to make do with a mere handful of slots. Increased rest limitation will hit them harder, and impose further limitations on their spell selection. Instead of getting two different spells on the same spell level, they might be forced to get two of the same spell on a spell level.

As for proper casters with full 9 levels of spells, well, majority of their buffs do come with rather long durations already. Few instances of a spell will last through a dungeon or two, and all they have to is herd mobs so that they can make most out of their shorter duration buffs. You haven't managed to nerf proper casters in one way or another, because the nerf you can impose is already in place. There is a rest timer, there are resting restrictions in areas, and therefore spellcasters cannot fling their offensive spells, which forces them to act like 'melee' characters to get most out of their spell books.


Oh, and the rest timer used to be like 2 minutes, 1.5 minutes, and 1 minute, and who knows what else. It didn't stop casters, it will just force them to rely on mob herding to make most out of their spell books. (And direct damage burst spells remain pointless.)

[chad878262]

This has been discussed in the past, and there are positives and negatives, but on the whole I would be for it, even if we said 2 minutes I would be, as once per RL hour for a rest timer doesn't seem too bad, makes extended min/level spells important, for example.

As to Barbarian Rage, currently it's relatively easy to make a barbarian that is essentially always raging, much like the wizard that is always buffed to the 9's. Would be a bit nice for Barbarian's to require a bit more 'resource management' and would make extended and extra rage feats more important, unless you build your Barbarian to be serviceable when not raging.

Were there to be a serious issue with a given class ability that is use per day that could be reviewed case by case similar to what was done with Divine Champions Divine Wrath ability (setting it on a cooldown).

Not sure if anything will be done or not, but I personally like the idea of limited resting... makes casters have a reason to group up instead of just ROFL-stomping through content solo. There is a bit of a push not to change anything else for a while though and focus on bug fixes alongside the BGtSCC planning document Maecius released a couple months ago so something like this might fall in to the 'leave well enough alone' pile.

[Blame The Rogue]

we also need to take into account dispels

epic mobs dispel

even chest traps now dispel

[Sun Wukong]

And random floor traps.

[Steve]

we also need to take into account dispels

epic mobs dispel

even chest traps now dispel

Which can either be turned up or down, case by case.

A lot more consumables will be used, which like I mentioned, has positives on the (non)economy.

Monkey Man makes good points, but Chad counters with possibilities to address case by case.

[Blame The Rogue]

the RL time issue just keeps coming to me

i like the settings as they are. if we are to have no rest zones, dispels, interrupted rests, rest timers...i feel they are already in the sweet spot

running out of game time, waiting on a rest timer, to ward again, and not being able to finish your adventure, because it's time to take the dog for a walk, fix dinner, get the kids off to bed...it's just a bummer

partying is fun, but so is soloing. i enjoy both. soloing should continue to be possible for timezone issues, and RP issues. paladins grouping with warlocks. that's a bad rp situation. grouping should be encouraged, but not forced. players get grumpy when you try and make them do something

there's always going to be areas where you have to group. don't think anyone's currently soloing old whitey dragonstomp

[Sun Wukong]

As to Barbarian Rage, currently it's relatively easy to make a barbarian that is essentially always raging, much like the wizard that is always buffed to the 9's. Would be a bit nice for Barbarian's to require a bit more 'resource management' and would make extended and extra rage feats more important, unless you build your Barbarian to be serviceable when not raging.

With higher level, yeah sure, it is possible to get longer rage duration from increased number of uses and extensions from feats. What I am talking about is starting a new character from scratch and not something that is RCR-ed to level 20 and given previously acquired equipment.

As for 'resource management' of barbarians, I have had 20-30 different barbarian characters since the server first popped up, and 5-9 of them have gone into late epics. My current level 25 barbarian comes with multiple extend rage feats, and based on my experience over the years Extend and Extra Rage feats have always been important on any Barbarian. This has not changed with the helmet and the amulet that provide these two feats for free. But back into the resource management, for example, with my level 25 barbarian I could run through several dungeons in the Troll Claw Fjord and expend my daily uses of rage before I can rest again. Even as someone that has picked several additional Extend Rage feats I cannot just go around burning them to 1v1 mobs, I have to save them for the larger groups of mobs, and I have to keep few left in case my rest is interrupted.

There is already resource management involved with the barbarian. Don't believe me? Then you may delete your entire server vault, and start from scratch with a level 1 barbarian in hide armor and 1000 gp to his name.

Were there to be a serious issue with a given class ability that is use per day that could be reviewed case by case similar to what was done with Divine Champions Divine Wrath ability (setting it on a cooldown).

Another class ability with limited number of uses is the Dervish Dance. An ability that is tied to both levels of the PRC class and ranks spent in the perform skill. At level 30, with 10 levels in the PRC, and 32 ranks in the perform skill, you will get a total of 8 minutes of dervish dance in 16 round bursts. It is a little bit short of the 20+ minutes of Rage that dedicated a barbarian can acquire.

There are other class abilities that grant a limited number of uses, such cleric domain powers, Feral Trance of the Fist of the Forest, shadow abilities of the Shadowdancer, Ghost Steps of the Ghost-Faced Killer, etc.

Not sure if anything will be done or not, but I personally like the idea of limited resting... makes casters have a reason to group up instead of just ROFL-stomping through content solo. There is a bit of a push not to change anything else for a while though and focus on bug fixes alongside the BGtSCC planning document Maecius released a couple months ago so something like this might fall in to the 'leave well enough alone' pile.

The resting timer has been toned down from what it was, and before casters were ROFL-stomping through content on their own just fine. Thus at best the timer was no more than an annoyance to them, and even more radical resting limitations will just make them buy few additional enchanted pieces equipment to free few more spell slots for the spells they really need.

Now, earlier today my cleric took out a group of about eight 'Epic' spawned beetles with one Chain Lighting and 4 Call Lightning spells. He could have just casted one Divine Power and be done with it in a roughly the same amount of time. This cleric of mine has a DC build by the way.

The resting limitations will only hurt casters that rely on direct damage burst spells, such as Call Lightning and Chain Lightning mentioned above. It will not have a noticiable effect on casters that make use of AoE 'save/damage over time' effects, or spells that allow them to bash things to death. It never has on this server, and it only might in the case if you implement truly draconian limitations that kill the server.


Additionally, think of the crafter/alchemist that are not playing a spontaneous caster. Oh, they find three customers in a row, first gets his UMD consumable straight away, the second has to wait 45 mintues, and the third 90 minutes. "What an improment."

[Steve]

If a longer rest timer makes Caster Builds rely more on equipment, like Melee-focused Builds must rely upon, then that equals up the playing field, doesn't it?

Right now, one can easily buff up and bash away for over 22 minutes...the max a Level 30 needs to wait to reset. So essentially, all Content and Development is done in order to balance out the most buffed Build possible, because it is a 24/7 Buff Contest, to be crass.

If you take out the constant being buffed issue, in the application of Server Balance, then you start to see many more possibilities with Builds, Areas, Content, etc.

Magic is good. I like magic! I have mostly magic-based Characters, because I know very well that the majority of the Content of BGTSCC caters to balancing out the Builds that can ROFL-stomp. And how do they do this magic ROFL-stomping?! By being buffed constantly, which with the Rest Timer as it is, is totally possible.

Just imagine a world of gaming were Magic needs to be carefully considered, for its power and usefulness? Kinda sounds like the Forgotten Realms and D&D we all know and love, right?

[aaron22]

i think with all this back and forth, if you set the rest timer at 1hr it would hardly make that much difference to any build. the PvE is pretty easy. only builds that i think would be most affected would be toons that use both DM and DS. those eat up turn attempts pretty quick. but then we would adjust and it would be the same as before. it is less about what the timer is set for and more about playing your toon like its a 22 min rest timer in a 60 min world. your gonna be SOL. if you "play" like it is a 60 min rest timer in a 60 min world you will be fine.

[Steve]

Well, I think I get what you'r saying Aaron, but my point is not how one plays their Build(s) in a 22 minute Reset World, but how mechanical balancing of current and future content appears to always be against what a 24/7 buffed X, Y or Z Build can do on the Server, which puts quite a lot of options and variety in the Useless category.

I don't like that category, and I also don't want to always see options be off the table because it would buff up Casters, when already, Casters are ruling.

If magic use and power was still powerful but less available at any one time, then I see that as a bonus to allowing for some good balancing of mechanics.

That's my opinion, anyway. Take it or leave it.

[Cenerae]

I don't see how it'll even the playing field, given many melee builds either rely on self buffing to be able to fight anything properly (most paladins, most clerics and any gish) or otherwise have limited uses of their core abilities per day (barbarians, people using turn undead feats, and so on).

It'd be a 'buff' to pure noncaster types and rogues in that they can theoretically fight longer when alone, but it'd also be a hinderance to groups. Mage has run out of spells while your party is doing tough content? Guess you'll all have to go and wait 10 minutes so you're not down a person anymore. Paladin's buffs wore off? He's now strictly worse than a fighter and can't really help all that much anymore.

If the goal is to make noncaster melees better, make them better (or make casters worse) without making everyone else have to deal with an arbitrary and inconvenient 'time tax', imo.

[metaquad4]

Imo, a longer rest timer would just be a minor inconvenience to people who have more playtime (as they can just wait it out, as is done now) and it would be a more terrible inconvenience to people with less playtime (who could potentially run out of playtime waiting for a rest timer). It also hurts players who are testing things out OOCly. It hurts players who are just mucking around. And it doesn't make anyone any stronger or weaker. 15-20 minutes is already a long time, I used to be able to write essays during rest timer wait moments while farming in the epic levels.

If casters are really so strong, then perhaps martial classes should be looked at and buffed, rather than just creating an inconvenience for everyone. Decreasing quality of life for a group of classes is not "balance" by any means. It is simply frustration disguised as a band-aid fix.

Honestly, I think they should do away with rest timers. Make resting available in towns and civilized, none-hostile areas (like the interior area of FAI). Remove resting locations in hostile/enemy-ridden areas, perhaps allowing players who make a survival roll to enable their allies (party) to rest in the nearby area (if no enemies are nearby).

Rest timers don't aid in immersion (I can't kneel down for X minutes! I used to be able to kneel down more often when I was weaker, how did this happen!) and they don't aid in challenge (as you just have to waste time for a bit). They just waste the player's time.

Immersion is up to players to create, in the different ways we RP out the "rest" button. Challenge is created by making good level layouts, by creating interesting mobs with abilities that test different group compositions. Rest timers don't add to either.

Added to that, martial characters already do have the "advantage" of not needing to rest in hostile situations. Of course, in a group that is hampered by the fact that they generally need to wait for their entire party (which can often include casters, who do need to rest) before they proceed. Which means they share these rest-times, effectively (as was mentioned earlier).

[Steve]

Power creep is a real issue. If anyone has been paying attention to Custom Additions as of late, you'll see a big investment in AVOIDING power creep.

Buffing non-caster builds to caster Builds power levels just will never happen, if the paradigm holds. So it is necessary to look at what makes Casters so powerful, especially those Casters that deviate from a strict archetype and border multiple ones, such as the Gish (or Bard or Favored Soul...but yeah, we already know the issues there).

Being Buffed is what is powerful. Buff buff buff, and you can drive over 95% of the Server Content, and quite often enough, solo like. So how do you reduce the MASS BUFFING program?

One option is make for less buff-a-bility, in terms of Time vs. Options. If you use up more options, you have less time. If you need more time, you use less options. If having ALL the options and ALL the time is the problem we're looking to solve, then...by the gods, we might have a solution here!!!

I do agree that Resting in an Inn or at a campfire should bypass the Rest Timer (though camping outdoors should raise a possibility of disturbance... ). But being able to Rebuff entirely just before you get to the Boss after trouncing through a Dungeon area?? Hmm...what's the point there?

Inconvenience is an interesting term to use, especially when applied to a game that we willfully play. Is it an inconvenience to have to gain XP? Is it an inconvenience to have to mule gear or is it an inconvenience to have to RCR a build, especially if you silly enough made a less-than-uber build? Is it an inconvenience that we need to play our character sheets and that we should stay IC when out of the Nexus, on a Role play server?

But I realize inconvenience is a REAL THING. And perhaps I find it inconvenient that whenever there is a possibility of honoring something in the D&D core books, it cannot be followed because a caster build this and that will just be more powerful, because of it.

Again, what makes casters so much more powerful than other Build archetypes? Their buffing stats, abilities, saves, AC, AB, etc. If you make THAT ability more considered, less UPALLTHEBLOODYTIMENEVERWEAK, and look at the wide ranging effect buffing has on how and what players choose to play, you might question how to reduce the use of buffing, or at least, make it less all-the-time-reliable.

Casting and buffs should go a loooong way, but not the whole, entire, constant, indefatigable way.

But that's me. I'm willing to have some "inconvenience" in order to give rise to a better field of play.

[metaquad4]

It doesn't give rise to a more even playing field, though. Everyone still has to wait around, just for a longer time now. Unless martial party members want to forsake OOC politeness and go ahead of their grounds while the casters need to rest (which is unlikely). It doesn't benefit anyone, and the only person it would effect the least would be solo martial players or martial players who only group up with other martial players. For everyone else, they get lower Quality of Life. It doesn't seem worth the frustration it would give to everyone else, or the effort to actually make the change.

It literally would do nothing but increase the time people stand around or go AFK.