Loot Changes

[Blame The Rogue]

appreciate the opinion, but peaceful solution isnt always an option

[Wolfrayne]

There are many aspects of the loot problem that have nothing to do with the loot but more to do with the situation a person is in.

DM events is one aspect of this, its hard to balance a fair fun and challenging encounter when the people involved vary in level/skill/power. Throw something too weak and people will crap on it and get bored, throw something too strong and you have stupid deaths that make no sense.

Another aspect of this is PVP, Few people will pick a fight with others unless they are heavily geared/warded etc.

I could sit here and list all the different problems/ideas that have been bought up over the years again and again until i turn blue in the face and pass out but the reality of it is at this point there is nothing that could be done that will "fix" these problems.

Personally if it were up to me, id wipe the servers and set the max lvl to 20, leave gear as it is and maybe add a crafting system as an option. And i would keep a closer eye on the DM rewards because the power creep on some of those items is ridiculous... the things i have seen given from an event compared to years ago is ridiculous.

But that will never happen so. Keep praying to Tymora for that good drop

Edit to Clarify what i mean by Power Creep here is an example.

This is an item i received after a year long campaign back in 2012/2013ish
https://gyazo.com/8dc2febfb6ff87a407c43d5fbe2e8db7

This is an item i got for killing an illithid in a random DM event a couple months ago.
https://gyazo.com/d185320490b98c41e80adebdf68359f6

I dont know if the DM's Rules have changed since i was on the team but there is an insane gap in power there.

[Hoihe]

Just so people don't say I only post bad runs

Ran 2x ice worm holes, 3x lizardfolk cave chests and 3 yellow names. Made 8k from selling. I did not track whether mostly it came from yellow names or chests. 3 yellow name encounters (1 on way in, 1 in caves, 1 on way out) feels fairly unusual though, so probably padded profits highly.

[Azroth]

I am surprised others are still poking at this, considering how old the thread's origins are...

At any rate, the reality is if you add more loot to the tables you are mostly just decreasing your chances in some regard as you are just adding more items, and chances of that one drop you want get lower and lower.

You could just flood it with more junk to pawn, but is that really necessary? It really is not.

Besides, just make a wizard sort and run around with invisible with haste using knock spells as needed (or multi-class with rogue to get disarm trap and lock pick with your high INT). You can loot relatively fast with that alone. I was doing it over a year ago, and made quite a bit. Ended up spending most of it on scrolls to feed to one of my other characters, but it worked out either way at the time.

So rather than do what I did, just spend it on the gear you can buy from others and or NPC's.


Besides... The last thing we need to do is go back to when with some of the zany gear a bit over the top from some DM drops, etc. There was plenty cheating their way through it all in an attempt to compete with others who wanted to PvP each other and more to at least feel like they had a chance.

[Snarfy]

I am surprised others are still poking at this, considering how old the thread's origins are...

It is a bit of a dead horse at this point

At any rate, the reality is if you add more loot to the tables you are mostly just decreasing your chances in some regard as you are just adding more items, and chances of that one drop you want get lower and lower.

You could just flood it with more junk to pawn, but is that really necessary? It really is not.

Besides, just make a wizard sort and run around with invisible with haste using knock spells as needed (or multi-class with rogue to get disarm trap and lock pick with your high INT). You can loot relatively fast with that alone. I was doing it over a year ago, and made quite a bit.

I don't think the amount of loot is necessarily the issue, so much as having to re-visit areas adnauseam to find something decent is. I can run my high STR ranger through three zones in particular in 30 minutes, fill up nearly an entire inventory bag with loot, and usually make an easy 15 - 20k. I've done this run an obscene amount of times though(probably a hundred?), and have found maybe 2 sets of mithral armor, and 2 half decent weapons. Basically, the more you loot farm, the better your chances, which is no different than before really... the difference is: dungeon variety diminishes exponentially as you gain levels, and once you pass a dungeons CR threshold, there's little to no incentive to ever go back.

I droned on and on about this already, mind you but... yeah, I still think the CR's could be tinkered with, because some dungeons have been collecting huge amounts of dust after the changes(... just as I predicted they would). Some notable examples of dungeons you will rarely see anyone in: Cloakwood mines, Minotaur maze, Hagspawn cave, Haunted house, Ant burrows, Goblin mines n. of beregost(questers still go there), Gullykin crypt, Nashkel mines, and Hilltop even... heck, actually it would be easier for me to list the dungeons that are still visited on a semi-regular basis, like sharpteeth caves and lions way gnoll caves. Until they outlive their loot/XP usefulness that is, because once a character hits level 16'ish, their players might as well start pounding out wyverns(the loot drops there are almost as nuts as the XP). From there it's just a matter of group spamming epic zones for treasure, woohoo.

[Snarfy]

... soooo, yup. Totally necroing this thing because I'm curious about how people feel about the loot tables now.

I don't log in much, but when I do I often check out the scry to see which dungeons are being visited. Today I was on for a few hours, saw one person at Durlags, and the usual epic party-goers heading to epic level areas. Other than that, nada. Mind you, 1/3 of the players were hiding locations, and most of the rest were hanging out in the new farmlands.

Once in a while I'll see someone in the Lions Way Gnoll caves, or someone will pop into Sharpteeth caves long enough to run the quest. I can't say I've seen many of the others being visited still, IE:

Cloakwood mines, Minotaur maze, Hagspawn cave, Haunted house, Ant burrows, Goblin mines n. of beregost, Gullykin crypt, Nashkel mines, and Hilltop

... etc etc. Am I just blind, or are players still visiting any of these regularly? I notice a fair number of characters in their teens around, are they adventuring much? Or is it mainly time spent RP'ing(campfire or otherwise).

The few times that I've popped into a lower level dungeon, there wasn't anyone in them either(except for a quest exploiter, tsk). I even found that newer(?) smallish dungeon out north of Winding Waters which was empty.

What's the deal with dungeons for all you other folks? And how are the low to mid tier dungeons(or even early epics) faring from your perspectives?

[Winterborne]

I've been hitting the winding waters dungeon multiple times per day while levelling. Even at mid epics it's still decent XP and loot. Certainly more enjoyable than hours of running circles in the reaching woods at any rate.

The other dungeons (lower level ones) still get people in them but it's so fast to get to 20 that many aren't in the profitable looting range of them for long from what I can see.

I've been pretty happy with the loot changes overall. While the majority of looting is still things you pick up only to vendor, I've at least noticed the occasional thing worth keeping or selling.

[Azroth]

I have seen others hit some of these just days ago in fact :

Cloakwood mines, Minotaur maze, Hagspawn cave, Haunted house, Ant burrows, Goblin mines n. of beregost, Gullykin crypt, Nashkel mines, and Hilltop

Depends on the day and or people involved, I suppose. But some on that list may very well be less traveled on, and a few others.

As to where I frequent? It depends on the mood. I can't go in circles anymore in the same places. I have done it for so many years I have to change my routine up, else I grow tired and or on auto pilot.

But I often at times move between locations of the ogre caves in the troll claws then hit the upper dark, and under city even when in the mood and depending on the level range I am in.

[DM Spartacus]

I am not sure any discussion here should be about loot only. There have been so many changes many caves are pretty passed by. Most are still visited that have been mentioned. The rate is greatly reduced and has been ever since other changes. So there is a pretty big change in speed to levelling, and probably ambition to just be higher, than the journey. So the caves at lower levels are probably run for XP first, with loot a secondary consideration. Tweaking might make for more varied activity, but probably only if XP goes with that. Also look at the activity as a snapshot when on and anything new including Farmlands gets a rush usually, too short lasting for this builders work but it is quite noticeable. There is a pretty big swing to camp fire and hidden gossiping, at any given time, not particularly related to any game plots but both player RP and general chat. There are some single short loot runs and usually about one group in play somewhere in dungeon. Higher level concept also often involves maximizing camping chatting - teleport - fast run and return (so easier to miss, and perhaps less desirable)

So likely for long term players unsightly efficiency is a thing, and valid in its own way to maintain interest after you have done something for years. More rotation of dungeons is still an idea, or change of any kind, tweaking loot and creatures (which can now mechanically be done), but the bigger thing is linking it to wider decisions on what people seek from their visits.

The balance of coin and what it may be used for I think must feature there. These are big daily amounts mentioned and I think for most people this is pursued at some point and then balanced out by the effort made v spending options and currently self regulates when a player is comfortable with gold holding and this ought to reflect how many players you see in dungeons particularly after level 30.

But as gold became easier and loot runs quicker, less people are in dungeons. This is not necessarily the enemy, depends what folks want. As I see it the game was set to get people rolling quickly to levelling and slow it up later. Something people mostly complain about oddly is it slows at 20+ It has been tweaked in power, gold, and loot throughout that time.

I like dungeons you cannot easily solo for the best loot. Dungeons that maybe need gathering of skills and items from elsewhere (making run a bigger quest feel) maybe to best succeed. Lower level this might be shovels and ropes, higher it might be a dragons tooth etc. to trade past a big fight etc.

But the current cycle of loot runs by any definition needs revisited and looked at in a wider scale too. If not a wider sweep then worth trying some minor tweaks in least used dungeons, perhaps linked to clever skills and puzzle solving over stopwatch loot runs. The world maybe needs both and and more exciting loot outlets too. (See if you spot any changes to activity after tweaking)

Though as DMs we try to create places for gold to go, and ways to obtain items. The variety of what people want is I think quite large and defining it difficult.

So loot tweaking may be challenging too but always worth a go.

[Steve]

I visited the Elder Ogres Stronghold yesterday for the first time in months.

The boss fight and room chests delivered: a burning stick; Heal Kit +3; 1078gp; a spear (no enchantment); 45gp; Bullets (99) w/ Cold 2 dmg; Spell Mantle scroll.

I think this is kinda normal, overall.

My thoughts are mobs and Areas are too easy, allowing players—especially old timers with muled gear—to solo everything, and with the intent + outcome to level to 30 with extreme haste.

Then, at 30, besides the odd DM campaign/event, “life” is mostly campfire chat or the same few epic dungeons/bosses that <I>should</I> give the best loot returns.

These days, the economy it’s so inflated that +3 gear is vendored for 1400gp. Because the consignment isn’t making money and truly epic gear is trade only.

[Snarfy]

The other dungeons (lower level ones) still get people in them but it's so fast to get to 20 that many aren't in the profitable looting range of them for long from what I can see.

Yeah, this is probably true. It's kind of a bummer for me to think that dungeons are empty because there is such a brief window for their looting/xp value. RP value remains a constant, but I still think that the "adventuring" aspect is somehow diminished under the new paradigm. Perhaps I'm just used to seeing solo'ers or small parties scattered throughout all those low level dungeons where, quite literally, most of the first half of my decade here was where I did most of my RP'ing.

I can't go in circles anymore in the same places. I have done it for so many years I have to change my routine up, else I grow tired and or on auto pilot. But I often at times move between locations of the ogre caves in the troll claws then hit the upper dark, and under city even when in the mood and depending on the level range I am in.

This sounds familiar. I have about 4 to 6 areas that I can visit(by myself, of course) and reliably find something to loot(with only a moderate chance that my character(s) will get fugued). This route/routine just isn't appealing anymore. At least not as appealing as the previous routine of being able to go anywhere and find items, and not just gold, even if they were crap

The balance of coin and what it may be used for I think must feature there. These are big daily amounts mentioned and I think for most people this is pursued at some point and then balanced out by the effort made v spending options and currently self regulates when a player is comfortable with gold holding and this ought to reflect how many players you see in dungeons particularly after level 30.

The most gold I have is on my main at 1.5 million gp. I probably have another 2 - 3 million between all my other characters, which is probably peanuts compared to some other players. For me, acquiring gold is officially meaningless, and, other than blasting through super expensive arrows or wands and recharging them regularly (or buying new ones), it's just not possible for me to spend it anywhere near as fast as I can find it. I wonder if this is the case for other people too.

I like dungeons you cannot easily solo for the best loot. Dungeons that maybe need gathering of skills and items from elsewhere (making run a bigger quest feel) maybe to best succeed. Lower level this might be shovels and ropes, higher it might be a dragons tooth etc. to trade past a big fight etc.

But the current cycle of loot runs by any definition needs revisited and looked at in a wider scale too. If not a wider sweep then worth trying some minor tweaks in least used dungeons, perhaps linked to clever skills and puzzle solving over stopwatch loot runs. The world maybe needs both and and more exciting loot outlets too. (See if you spot any changes to activity after tweaking)

Skill rolls and quest items definitely make dungeons more appealing. Anything to draw people in really, or at least offer them an incentive that eclipses finding 37gp in every chest. Back in the old days <insert grandpa voice> we didn't even care about loot, just the XP and any RP we could find. As previously mentioned, the bread and butter of RP I've done in the past was from searching for/encountering other characters in the wilds/dungeons. Even if I were to somehow miraculously return to my previous form and dedication to RP( ), I would likely wither and die of boredom due to areas/dungeons being either empty, or little more than a way stop in the leveling/looting process.

These days, the economy it’s so inflated that +3 gear is vendored for 1400gp. Because the consignment isn’t making money and truly epic gear is trade only.

I actually cant even remember the last time I bought something off the auction, huh. And 99% of what I find gets vendored, not consigned. But yes, the economy has been wacky for years now, and there doesn't seem to be any easy fix on the horizon.

[Hoihe]

I can't go in circles anymore in the same places. I have done it for so many years I have to change my routine up, else I grow tired and or on auto pilot. But I often at times move between locations of the ogre caves in the troll claws then hit the upper dark, and under city even when in the mood and depending on the level range I am in.

This sounds familiar. I have about 4 to 6 areas that I can visit(by myself, of course) and reliably find something to loot(with only a moderate chance that my character(s) will get fugued). This route/routine just isn't appealing anymore. At least not as appealing as the previous routine of being able to go anywhere and find items, and not just gold, even if they were crap

There's another big point to it:

Being forced to go yuan-ti/frost giant/fire giant/vault of the dead/lizardcave/iron mines/ziggurat is... Annoying.

In the past, if I had some minimal motivation, I could log in and go stab the vampires near Chaos or sharp teeth orcs. This got me in game long enough to potentially run into someone outside FAI who was doing the same. There was a low activity/motivation barrier to doing things since I had ample choices of low-dedication activities.

These days, unless I got it in me to focus 90 entire minutes on a lootrun (like sure, lizards/yuan-ti/ziggurat/iron mines are easily doable stress-free... But they're way out of the way compared to the FAI and are themselves way lengthier than a quick visit to Chaos's downstairs vampires), or know for certain I will run into someone compatible&comfortable, there's a massive motivation barrier to hopping on.

[MrSmith]

The fundamental gripe I have about the previous, and still enduring, changes to the loot system is that it defaults to gold. L'argument cautions us not to deduce general statements into specific conclusions. General statements should lead to general conclusions.

I made a lot of gold on one loot run does not mean every loot run generates a lot of gold.

One character having a lot of gold does not mean all characters have a lot of gold.

A lot of people stand around the fire and RP does not mean all characters RP around the fire.

So on and so on...

If you want to fix the economy on this server, start by identifying the problem(s)... and then fix the said problem(s). If gold is meaningless, then creating a loot system that defaults to gold... is what? Helpful? No, it only exasperates the problem.

Cheers!

[zhazz]

These days, the economy it’s so inflated that +3 gear is vendored for 1400gp. Because the consignment isn’t making money and truly epic gear is trade only.

That part there is the main issue for me.

Gold/money was invented to help facilitate trade in a no-fuss manner between two or multiple parties. Rather than rely on a bartering system, all trades are done by assigning a value to an object, and then selling it for that amount. This allows a farmer with two excess goats to buy a horse with the money made from selling goats, despite none with an excess horse wanting any goats.

And now we're moving away from that concept on the server for high-end things. We're back to trying to trade two comparable objects for one another, or a multitude of objects for a singular one. Finding that perfect match is near-impossible, and leads to hoarding.

Gold is only worthless at higher levels because none of the high-end items are sold. They're primarily traded. Enforce gold trades (capped at maybe 2.5 million?) and suddenly gold has a value again.

[eternal night]

In the grand scheme of things, the server is asking us to spend a lot of time looting and hunting simply because there needs to be ways to keep players engaged.

I personally feel my time is not valued by the server, and it asks for more time to loot something decent so I simply don't loot.

Look at all the market threads and see the people with best items are just looting a big part of their time.

Sometimes roleplay rewards you with items from DMs but that is not possible for everyone to participate in DM events for many reasons.

The fact that a lot of items are missing from epix shop due to power creep means that people still believe in game balance on DnD, which is ridiculous.

If the philosopy about items change maybe you see less time wasted on looting, but looking at the current situation it seems it won't happen.