Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

[DM] Grinning Death wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:18 am

AgentOrange wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:44 am I mean that the North is largely neglected by DMs. That's where Soubar, Darkhold, etc. is (hubs for openly evil characters who feel more at home there, because they have a hard time fitting in around the city.) The exception is when a plot gets big enough that we might have bridge attack events, such as the devil and Orcus plots. That's still just an extension of Team Good's plot, though.

How can these areas be improved? By the DMs not giving all the attention to the same old Team Good or city-centric groups, and shifting some of the focus to the North and UD to give Team Evil players their own stuff to get involved in.

Not all the focus, granted. The last thing I want is for any group to feel left out, but there ought to be an even split.

There's a reason Soubar was empty for a while, and it's just a collection of mostly defunct factions in a trenchcoat. I haven't been on in a couple weeks to see if that miraculously changed.

Or I can keep awkwardly barging into Team Good plots because I'm gonna go where I think there's story. Sorry not sorry.

With all due respect, you seem to be making a variety of assumptions about the DM team that are ill-informed. We do in fact run plots in the North, and for non-good groups on a regular basis. We respond to pretty much every player request that we get, as a matter of fact, and we do our best to fulfill each and every one to an extent that's possible.

If you find there is a lack of DM interaction with your group or guild, I'd advise you to please reach out to the DM team and let us know your goals, your attempted means to achieve them, and how you can contribute to their success in the future, if they fail. We'd be happy to work with you.

Running events for players and groups that request it is great. I'm happy to hear that the current team is getting to everybody that asks.

A lot of Team Evil/Northerners are too demoralized to ask, however.

I mean moreso overarching plots that involve a larger scope of characters. Randomly springing them in the North. That might just reinvigorate the place.

DaloLorn wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:07 am Either way, the grindiness combined with the lack of progression can definitely make it feel like an MMO sometimes. It gets worse, though, when characters around your own age end up rocketing ahead of you because they have a higher tolerance for the mindless tedium of it...

I can't even begin to count the number of times this has happened to me, largely because of my loathing for circle grinding. The only thing worse than watching others zerg through a zone for hours is participating in it. I can relate to how it helps one progress however, at least in terms of XP. Typically I would fall back on my questing routine, rather than join the daily grind sessions, because at least that got my characters out and about into numerous zones.

While I don't foresee the token "grind" zones changing any time soon, I do wish there was as much incentive or motivation to visit dungeons. Unfortunately... (and this is where I drag out a certain dead horse) the mechanical limitations placed on the loot tables have not done dungeon-crawling any favors. Crossing the loot CR threshold for dungeons really puts a damper on ones motivation to ever return to them. Imagine finding a compatible group of characters to dungeon delve with, only to discover that one, some, or all of the party are bound to find little to zero treasure(and minimal XP). Only the most hardcore of RP'ers would even bother to visit dungeons in this case. Say what you will about how antithetical circle grinding xvarts is to immersion, but finding 25gp over and over is just as bad.

And so we have a plethora of dungeons in the CR 5 to 20 range that see very few visitors, save for the ones that have quest objectives, or ease of access to rapidly spawning mobs. Personally, I would much rather see characters of any level in any dungeon than see dungeons lay dormant(for proof of this, log in during peak hours and count the number of characters in dungeons that aren't epic characters in epic dungeons).

So, yeah, that's my "the perils of OOC limitations on an RP server" dead horse for the day.

AgentOrange wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:39 am I mean moreso overarching plots that involve a larger scope of characters. Randomly springing them in the North. That might just reinvigorate the place.

I can be corrected if I'm wrong, but we no longer have a Campaign DM to run year long plots that effect large swathes of the server. This was a conscious decision on the part of the admins/HDMs, to reduce the amount of apocalyptical sort of events that end up trivial if they happen on a near constant basis. If that's something the community wishes to revisit, we can certainly talk about it. But it was done for the reason stated.

In regards to a lesser overarching plot, that is something that's possible. But the best stories, at least for me, start with a request and eventually spread out into three, four, or even more events that may affect certain guilds, players, or towns. So I'd encourage you to consider something that your character/guild wishes to achieve, and seeing if a DM can pick it up and run with it. You might be surprised by how creative we can be when given a single request that turns into an epic tale of woe and wonder.

But in the end, it requires both player initiative and DM creativity. We can create plots to spring on players, but without "buy in" from the players, we'll end up with a plot that doesn't generate interest, or worse, creates negative reactions from the player base.

[DM] Grinning Death wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:18 am

AgentOrange wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:44 am I mean that the North is largely neglected by DMs. That's where Soubar, Darkhold, etc. is (hubs for openly evil characters who feel more at home there, because they have a hard time fitting in around the city.) The exception is when a plot gets big enough that we might have bridge attack events, such as the devil and Orcus plots. That's still just an extension of Team Good's plot, though.

How can these areas be improved? By the DMs not giving all the attention to the same old Team Good or city-centric groups, and shifting some of the focus to the North and UD to give Team Evil players their own stuff to get involved in.

Not all the focus, granted. The last thing I want is for any group to feel left out, but there ought to be an even split.

There's a reason Soubar was empty for a while, and it's just a collection of mostly defunct factions in a trenchcoat. I haven't been on in a couple weeks to see if that miraculously changed.

Or I can keep awkwardly barging into Team Good plots because I'm gonna go where I think there's story. Sorry not sorry.

With all due respect, you seem to be making a variety of assumptions about the DM team that are ill-informed. We do in fact run plots in the North, and for non-good groups on a regular basis. We respond to pretty much every player request that we get, as a matter of fact, and we do our best to fulfill each and every one to an extent that's possible.

If you find there is a lack of DM interaction with your group or guild, I'd advise you to please reach out to the DM team and let us know your goals, your attempted means to achieve them, and how you can contribute to their success in the future, if they fail. We'd be happy to work with you.

Assumptions based on experience, in that case, many PMs were sent, not even for an event request, just something that could have been answered with a quick PM. Nothing

Fast forward to a few months, where I make a forum post about landgrabbing, and the PM from the DM telling me ''No'' came less than a day after.

Personally, my only focus is RP and I am in favor to all those changes that would focus on that rather than mechanic. So far, I have read many valid points, so I will give my support to those and throw in some additions.

Server Culture:
This is a very valid point Planehopper, Hoihe and others have raised. This is probably the hardest to tackle but I will give my suggestion nonetheless. There is a great polarization and OOC conflicts, specifically when we discuss RP styles and changes to implement. I understand there are things we don't want to compromise on, including me, but at the end of the day the will of the community is something that should be respected. Even if, hypothetically something I do not wish to compromise on is changed and that leads me to leave the server, it would be with no hard feelings but merely a "sorry not my cup of tea anymore". We should try to compromise and ultimately understand that the preferences of fellow players aren't worth less than ours.

Play and Let Play:
My advice here would be to accept that there are various way to RP a certain character or alignment and this is what makes D&D good, otherwise we would have 9 archetypes and that's it.
The same way I don't want someone to accuse me of being incapable of RPing a good aligned character because my character would not kill even the most wicked of villains I will not accuse someone who plays a good aligned character hostile to evil aligned ones of being an elitist. I might accuse them of being cruel IC, but IC is where those accusations must stay.
I will be honest, I play a scholar and on certain occasions I have refrained from writing an IC book about her own theories because I was afraid someone would get back to me and say that I have messed up with the lore and even your average FR child would know what I have written is false. The vibe I get from the community is a great polarization on how people should or should not play.

Cliques:
People talk much about cliques and when we have negative experiences with someone, it's easy to label the others who play with them as part of the same clique and put them all in the same basket. If we try to look closely, we may realize that the supposed clique is made of very different people and that having a bad experience with someone should not compromise the entire group.

Consequences:
When we say consequences people automatically think of permadeath and other gruesome things, but this really is not the case. Granted something that can impact the playability of a character should be discussed in advance, I don't see any reason for holding back for other consequences. Those can be many things: reputation, wealth, lives of innocents at risk and I had the most fun in plots that involved those things, even though we lost it was all part of the experience. This is valid for interactions with DM and other players alike.
I also fully agree with Ravial when they say events that impact the game environment should be made to last longer.

Factions Autonomy:
This is something that was long debated. Lore factions are led by NPCs who have the right to intervene if such factions stray from the lore, which is fair and we all agree that things like avowed burning books should really not be a thing. Problem is, we don't have a definite point of contact for such NPCs and sending a request to the DM team may take a very long time, or at least that was my experience.
I will give you Candlekeep example, as this is the faction I play in and I know better. Before we can ban, unban or let a non surface race in we must seek authorization from the DM team. If someone starts insulting my character within Candlekeep's ground or being disrespectful I cannot kick them out, but it is me who should leave and get inside the locked area of the map. We tried to change the laws and we successfully had removed the clause that prevented non-surface race from entering, however we could not remove the script that keeps the drow out, as the DM team said that we still must seek approval from the NPC if we want to let UD people in. Problem is, since the script only works on drow if we try to chase out an orc for example they would point out that the rules don't forbid them from entering, therefore we are stuck in this limbo.
My suggestion is to either give more freedom to the lore factions or, alternatively, assign them a faction DM as a point of contact.

Background Checks:
I am one of those in favor of reintroducing the experience reward for well written backgrounds and I would volunteer to help but I'm afraid my FR knowledge is not that good. I believe this method, if approached in the right way can greatly improve immersion and depth of the character. As long as the player submits the background with the humility of accepting feedback and the DM provides a constructive feedback understanding that not everyone had the chance to read every existing handbook, this can really improve the adherence to the lore.

Crafting:
I understand it is hard to implement, but I would be all for a system like that. Making unique items available only through craft would greatly improve the economy and the interaction between characters. Another advantage is that this would give those who play pacifist characters / those with RP builds /who don't like grinding more chances to have an income. Granted having to figure out how to get out of things being physically unable to hurt PCs and mobs alike is great fun, but that leaves my finances sensibly depleted. A crafting system would be great fun for us and support more styles of RP.

Remove Muling:
Alright, I know I will probably be lynched for that, but muling is something that imho ruins immersion and RP interaction. If it was for me I would remove it completely, but I would compromise with muling only allowed when someone creates a new character and retires the old one. What we should get rid of is people creating alts who make potions and wands or are appraisers and then mule everything to their main. It would be more immersive if they had to seek an appraiser or a crafter in RP.

Lower the Level Cap:
I would probably get lynched for this one as well. I would lower the level cap to 20, so that everyone is still able to access 9 level spells, true resurrection and whatnot but without the exponential power creep of the epic levels.

Instate the Material Components:
I understand we have two opposite fronts: those who firmly oppose permadeath and other irreversible consequences and those who want death and wounds to be taken more seriously. I can understand both points of view and I think adding the material components to the resurrection spells would be a good compromise. Now, since burning a diamond every time someone dies due to mobs would be a bit excessive, I would treat PvE death as KO and PvP (at discretion of the winner) and DM events (at discretion of the DM) as proper death that requires a resurrection spell.

DM Plots
I have noticed that a lot of drama gathers around DM plots. Understandably, everyone wants their piece of cake and their part in the plots but that doesn't always happen. We either have massive plots where nobody shines or smaller scale events where people cry at favoritism as we often see the same people involved. Part of the problem can be solved by publishing a small summary of the plot about to start explaining what the main themes will be, any disclaimer, risks and broadly who this is addressed to. Generic plots addressed to everyone unfortunately tend to be taken over by smaller groups and, since everyone wants their part, the mailbox of the DM team gets spammed by everyone and their grandmother. I have the feeling that we need smaller stories addressed to smaller groups (north, UD, certain faiths or groups of guilds) but in a way that is fairly spread throughout the various factions. If this is already happening, then probably the aforementioned summary would help the event being advertised more efficiently than with word of mouth. At the end of the day, the evil characters complaining OOC to the person who is excluding them IC is not the illness but the symptom. If those people had access or knowledge of certain plots addressed to their group specifically, they wouldn't try to forcibly being involved by a group that would never do it IC.

Cap on Simultaneous Plots:
This is another thing that will probably not be popular. I have suggested in other instances to put a cap on the number of DM plots a person / faction can be active at the same time. The limit on DM requests was already a great step in the right direction, but probably a cap on the plot involvement would prevent the same group from being involved in everything that is going on and reduce the workload on the DM team.

Remove KoS:
By KoS I mean the ability of shooting a monstrous race without even a written line before. I understand that some people would kill a member of a monstrous race no matter what and I can respect that, but in a RP server emoting something before the other sees the HP bar hit 0 all of a sudden is something that I would prefer to see. Personally I would prefer that an attempt to escape -before- the PvP starts should be respected as a PvP out regardless of who attempts it, but I understand many don't share this opinion. Opening the Northern area as a neutral zone, again, is a step in the right direction.

Ticket Tracker on the forum:
Again, I don't know how easily this can be implemented by devs, although I have seen it done on another server. It would a good idea for those who make a request to the DM team to know where they are in the queue and which day's request the DM are working on.

That was all for me. Sorry for the wall of text.

Bobthehero wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:57 amAssumptions based on experience, in that case, many PMs were sent, not even for an event request, just something that could have been answered with a quick PM. Nothing

Fast forward to a few months, where I make a forum post about landgrabbing, and the PM from the DM telling me ''No'' came less than a day after.

While you certainly may feel that is the case in the past, the DM team is open to any request you might have in the future. We look forward to any ideas you might bring to us.

In any case, this is a derailment of the thread. Please, continue! The DM team is happy to field questions.

A few thoughts about Edelgarde's post:

• I would probably expand the muling tolerance to include one or two items or a little gold, as a one-time thing when starting up a new character. Definitely not muling over a full arsenal of +4 weapons, but a little something special couldn't hurt too much, I think. I'm certainly in favor of restricting muling between active characters, though.
• Regarding material components for resurrection, we could take a page out of Ravenloft's book... or two. Perhaps even three.
  • Being knocked out on BG is instant death because of how the AI works. IMO, this would be the biggest issue to improve.
  • Ravenloft has three different types of corpse: Regular corpse (requires Raise Dead or Resurrection), badly impaired corpse (requires Resurrection), and corpse remains (much smaller and easier to transport, requires Resurrection). The latter two are typically created through deliberate player action, namely mutilating or burning corpses. However, a character can be instantly killed by damage massive enough to skip the regular corpse stage if they fail a Fortitude save on death.
  • On Ravenloft, Raise Dead costs 100gp per corpse level at an NPC priest, or an equivalent value in diamonds if cast by a player. (Items don't require extra material components.) Resurrection costs 500gp per level, but otherwise behaves the same.
• Another idea cribbed from Ravenloft: There is an announcement thread on their forums where each DM announces upcoming plots, specifying the kinds of players they're interested in (such as level range, timeslot, and possible miscellaneous characteristics), as well as the overall themes the plot is designed around. (This being Ravenloft, these tend to be some variation of "horror". )

I don't know what people expect, but if role-play isn't the highest rewarded action, it will not be the highest form of gaming on the Server.

IMHO, the Server sits at a cross roads where accusations of favoritism have hobbled the ability to make RP the most rewarded of endeavors. Because it has become so very rare, that RP Rewards, that when it does happen, it only reinforces the idea in the communities hive mind that "certain" players get rewards, certain Teams or cliques get rewards, and others don't.

Personally, both on the DM Team and off, I've seen more than my fair share of players quit BG in frustration over the feeling their RP was ignored over other players, who were easily known to be a) closer to Staff/DMs personally; b) also staff/DMs themselves. I'm PM'd often with players rants asking me "do I have to be a brown noser just to get some attention?" People/players don't want to feel that they have to "suck up" to any one player/clique/DM in order to forward their RP, their story, their experience on BGTSCC.

That said, it serves everyone to be patient, and have compassion, for those that "control" the environment IG. Really, it isn't so easy as it might seem on the outside. However, so many players lament to me that waiting for 4 months for a DM response, just kills the interest to RP on BGTSCC at all. I get this from Staff even!!! People who actually care and put in their free time to support the technical aspect of this Server are ALSO suffering from contact and support.

I agree, BGTSCC and role-play is supposedly a thing done for fun. Enjoyment. Pleasure. Those things are obviously and thankfully different for everyone. The reality is, seeing efforts go unrewarded for either OOC or IC or OOC or whatever reasons, the ONLY result is going to be disappointment. I myself can't say it's even remotely possible to have a Server that is supportive of each player that logs on. But I also wouldn't log onto a Server if I knew that the mantra is secretly "The is a Role-play Server. But no promises that your Role-play will be recognized."

Anyway, myself, I'm open to engaging IC with any PC, despite who or what the Player behind it may be. Hellz...I know full well there are so many secret accounts out there, you never know when you may be RPing with Maecius' new character, or not. But I also know that far too many players on this Server will outright avoid my PCs IG, even though we've never actually RP'd together, because of the said OOC feelings that drive everyone.

But, funny enough, that is kinda what good RP is: enter in the Character, and leave that OOC shit behind you.

As someone who's technically played on BG for more than 8 years, but has never stayed for long at a time and never found a home here, let me give you my thoughts for why that is. Keep in mind, I'm from Europe, so timezone problems are a culprit to many of my concerns. These are also shared concerns with several other individuals.

For the most part, the server is mechanically too difficult and the levelling process too one-sided and dragged out. You should not need UMD, high level gear and/or a specific type of class/build to play through areas. This is, in my opinion, one of the big reasons why the focus of playerbase discussion is on powerbuilding, rather than on roleplay which 'should be' the focus on a roleplay server. And you should not have to grind the one or two areas your character is able to play for hours on end to level up - only to have to run it for hours again to reach the next level and so on. I know that you can also RP to get RP XP, but being European, there often aren't players around - or you have to resort to the so-called and much-maligned 'campfire RP' which I consider another form of grinding, again for hours on end. (And with no loot gains.)

(n.b. the previous sentence isn't meant to disparage those who do enjoy campfire RP, as I enjoy it sometimes as well, in moderation. It's merely meant to reflect how I feel when engaging in such RP and not to categorise it as something people only do to gain XP.)

In other words, there's nothing interesting to do most of the time, because the available (admittedly fairly varied, but too punishing for most builds, without significant investment of resources) content is too exclusionary. Which leads to logging out. How many people actually enjoy circle grinding xvarts and wyverns for five levels, because they happen to be the only content worth the time and money? The returns are too little, and the only reason to do any other content than the couple less difficult areas is variety. But then you find yourself unable to do that content, except in a party - and all the parties, if there are any (EU timezone), keep to xvarts and wyverns, because they're simply more optimal. Great fun.

The levelling system incentivises grinding few areas over many. The levelling system incentivises one to shut up and kill as many enemies as quickly as possible, as opposed to dungeons or quests, or something a little more varied. (Circular areas are the bane of adventure RP!)

The first 10, maybe 15, levels are the only time I've had fun playing the game on this server. There, the area progression is done well, there are many areas that are doable for most characters, and the levelling doesn't take ages. It helps a lot that at those levels there are quests, which incentivise moving from one area to another to complete the quest there for an additional xp bump. Then after that, quests mysteriously vanish, the experience gap between levels gets wider, enemy HP gets higher and area variety diminishes considerably. And then, for some inexplicable (to me) reason, in epic levels even the XP gains drop to half. Grinding, grinding, grinding! Everything takes exponentially more time, gold and effort and it becomes work rather than a leisure time activity. I know it not to be the case, but all of this makes it seem like the focus of the server is on being a grinding server and not a RP server.

Maybe it sounds like I'm only interested in mechanical areas of the experience, but that is not so and in fact is the complete opposite. In my experience, players gravitate towards areas that are good for grinding and terrible for RP because the server incentivises this. (Circular grinding areas rear their ugly head once again!) 'Adventure RP' happens rarely because of this, as well as for the reasons outlined above - the other content being too much of a strain on your funds.

So if one wishes to enjoy their time here, they -need to- find a group of players with which to play. When there aren't many characters around, especially ones compatible with yours (be it for RP reasons or mechanical reasons, i.e. roughly the same level), what's left is grinding, which has been made, though likely not deliberately, as tedious, stressful and time-consuming as possible. And when the content you can do is tedious, stressful and time-consuming, you don't do it and instead log out, lowering the player count and never meeting the other players with which to play with.

There are undeniably a myriad of other reasons for the dwindling player count too, but as a European with only a moderate tolerance for grinding, I find that it's very difficult to get into the server to even experience the roleplay, because the hill to climb to reach levels high enough to adventure with most of the playerbase is too steep.

And yes, you -can- roleplay with high level characters, but in what manner of setting? Campfire, maybe a specific kind of DM event. You have no business being in high level areas or in DM events with difficult content as anything more than a tag along.

Finally, as another poster pointed out, there isn't much randomness or variance to the content. I think it'd be great if there were random events, or bounties or something that players could hunt or come upon. For example, there could be a bounty posting (quest) for some terrible bandit who spawns randomly somewhere in the world (when a player with the quest enters that area) and players could go hunt for them. Upon catching this individual, they could take his head somewhere (to an NPC?) and gain a reward. Then next reset, there could be another bounty. Anything that makes things feel less static is a plus - bigger plus if it reflects the situation on the server. (As posted before, Banite/gnoll activity in Cloakwood, for example - although one should be careful with this as it's an area for low level characters)

There's a lot of brilliant design on this server, like the many many new and modified classes, many well-made systems which facilitate roleplay, wide range of areas and beautiful aesthetics. Sadly, I feel that those things are in many ways overshadowed by the willingness to punish players with mindful tedium.

Phew, this post is overly rambly and would get terrible marks in a writing assignment.

Out of curiosity, White... who do you play? And do you have Discord by any chance?

Alonso wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:31 pm1. I'm pretty sure we're not even talking about monstrous races here. And even if we do - don't you think negative judgements held OOCly are still going to negatively impact experience of players who may want to play monstrous races? Or interact with monstrous races? Still applies to any race tbh

This server has existed a long while now, and historically speaking the monster race interactions have been a considerable source of player conflict, both in character and out of character. It doesn't matter who plays what, or who happens to be on the receiving end of the 'Flee or Die' role-play, and it doesn't take that many encounters for such role-play to be seen as nothing but an OOC method of bullying other players. The drow players have complained that epic surface elves come to deny their Upperdark areas the moment their location is visible in the scrying tool. The surface elves have complained that the epic drow characters have done the same. Players of orc characters have complained of being driven out wherever they go, and groups of orc characters have done the very same to other characters. Etc, etc. And sometimes the situation is not much helped by the fact certain character builds might not have other areas to level up, or all that much free time either. And if we go even further back in server time line, in order to have a chance to participate in any Dungeon Master event basically required that you played either a Dwarf, or an Elf, as those were the more active player guilds and factions, with the Dungeon Masters themselves having their own characters in those factions. Thus, when it comes to the sweeping statements said about certain races, either in character or out of character, there is a considerable baggage of past interactions that might explain them entirely. Bad experience go all around, and at some point the sum of those experiences could be so insurmountable that a player simply doesn't wish to interact with orcs/elves/dwarves/thieflings/aasimars... Or characters of certain class, of which Paladin springs to mind the most.

So what can you do in such a situation? Well, you just got to admit that even though "_____" are the worst of the worst, perhaps someone playing "_____" could still be an exception, and so you got to give individual characters their chance.

Alonso wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:31 pm2. I guess? But also let's not pretend that elven role-play is the only thing ERP could mean, and that it doesn't have any negative connotations on PG-13 PW (as clearly shown by your own take on point 7). Also ERP is likely not the only sweeping judgement that can be made about settlements/factions

The 'negative connotations' are exactly what makes the joke funny in the first place. If it didn't have any other meaning, it would not be a joke in the first place. As for sweeping judgements, whatever those may be, a player on this server can choose not interpret everything as some kind of a sweeping judgement. You let people blow off some of their steam, and come the next interaction with a "____" character -- they will be able to treat that character as an individual. But if you forbid the ability of people to blow off their steam, eventually all "____" characters will be seen as nothing more than 'untouchable' members of "_____" group, and thus you get players who will simply refuse to interact with any elven/dwarven/orcish/etc... character.

Alonso wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:31 pm3. Cool advice! Let's all collectively do that sometimes. But also our dislike for other people shouldn't really pour into IC interactions, preferably. Especially if it will hamper experiences of people who aren't involved in our local feuds. (Not to mention that, y'know, OOC server-wide interactions also exist and can easily hamper players ability to enjoy server)

And here it is good to bring things into perspective, because anything at all can easily hamper a player's ability to enjoy the server. "The chests in a dungeon all had nothing but broken items and rags?" -- is but one example that sums up the entire point. Not every day is going to sunshine and cotton candy, and not every person is going to be your magical best friend forever -- sometimes life just throws a bucket off mud water in your face, and you just have to wipe it off before carrying on your merry way.

Alonso wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:31 pm4. This doesn't even address the point that people will judge other people for their RP preferences, clearly you aren't a terrible person for liking adventures and I shouldn't be considered a terrible person or terrible RPer for liking benches

People will always judge other people, it is just what happens when people interact with one and other. And sometimes there will be no middle ground to be had, and while I am happy to conclude that you are not a terrible person, I can still insist that your role-playing preferences are just terrible when compared to my own. Think of it as wearing somewhat awkward clothes, you can still like someone, good company and all that... but it is just the clothes worn that kind of put you off. You could also think of it as the neighbor's kid kind of situation. Thus sometimes the best thing you can do is just give some space to the other guy.

Alonso wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:31 pm5. Maaaaybe don't frame it as "People with hardcore characters have higher standards for RP " as it's too easy to mistake for "People with hardcore characters produce better quality of role-play" which defeats your whole point. Also nobody so far said that they envy the higher standards of RP other players have?

People with hardcore characters tend to have higher standards for role-play, and tend to produce better quality of role-play. If it were not the case, why bring up permanent death in the first place with the quality of role-play? And yes, some players here do regard quality of role-play as some kind of a status symbol -- and when you consider humanity's tendency to form hierarchies, well... if an envious individual cannot beat or match something, one way to overcome the perceived difference is to drag other people down. And as I said, following high standards is not easy, but sometimes the results are just worth it.

Alonso wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:31 pm6. Uh... What? Nothing of what you said has anything to do with the point, it reads as an insult more than anything.

I went back read my comment, and I do not see it. If someone insults you, you do not have to be offended by it. Take that step back, think it through, and if the insult is just empty noise -- you can ignore it. If it is not, you have to ask yourself if there is something you can do about it, if there is not: then things are just as they are and you can shrug your shoulders and just ask what of it? If you can do something about it, then when you actually do something about it, the insult no longer applies to you and is therefore nothing but empty noise. If you can do something about it, and you refuse to, well, then you just have to come to terms with the fact that the supposed insult applies. Offense need not be taken, and it is your choice to remain offended.

Alonso wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:31 pm7. I feel you. I'm also not interested in romantic roleplay at this point in life. But also, romance is very much PG-13? And I'm pretty sure Haven is not the place for romance, but a place for ERP, not sure what are you on about

That raises a question: does anyone know if you can have elven role-play on Haven?

And as for whether or not romantic role-play remains within the bounds of PG-13 rules... It can, and then again, it might not.

Alonso wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:31 pm8. Me existing is not politics. My character existing is not politics. Loving women is not politics. Also your point only works if you yourself reduce LGBTQ+ people to their identity, which defeats your whole rant about identities?

If you define entire character based on nothing but sexual orientation, you have reduced yourself into nothing more than a humanoid shape that fits into a political box. And if we do the same with Bob the Warrior, and reduce him into nothing else but the weapon he wields... He is no longer a person, he is just a Long Sword +4 he happens to wield, and therefore he claims to be indistinguishable from all other Long Swords +4. The only thing our Bob the Warrior cares about are the politics of being a Long Sword +4. And if the first thing he brings up when meeting people is the Long Sword +4, if every single topic has to be about his Long Sword +4, if every thing has to be reflected on the surface of his Long Sword +4 -- at some point other people will just acknowledge that for political reasons, he has become nothing more than yet another indistinguishable Long Sword +4. I am more than happy to treat anyone as an individual, but those who have bought into identity politics no longer perceive it as individual interaction, and everything is interpreted as an attack against the group identity. Therefore, when someone asks our Bob the Warrior to talk about something else, our Bob the Warrior takes it as an insult towards all Long Sword +4s.

Alonso wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:31 pm9. Again, preferences are valid, but maybe don't make sweeping judgements on people?

If a rogue in a party insists on typing a ten thousand word treatise every time it is time to open a locked chest, and the party gets wiped out because the buffs simply ran out in the middle of a dungeon, I will make a sweeping judgement on that particular rogue and consider myself more than justified in it.

Alonso wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:31 pm10. In the example given, the strangers opinion is not just held, but voiced and makes environment more hostile to some people.

And by preventing speech, these some people who wish to banish every utterance that might offend, ultimately achieve in nothing but the creation of a toxic, hostile environment, where not a single compliment can ever be believed. Every word said could be a backhanded compliment of some form, and thus there will be no trust, there will be no civility, there will only be suffocating tyranny of whoever happens to be the most easily offended. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words never will.

Alonso wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:31 pmAlso it's very hard to read your post as playing devil's advocate and not insulting Hoihe? You mention and refer to insecurities too often, that's just weird

If it was my intention to insult anyone at all, I would do so honestly and straight to their face with adjectives that leave very little to imagine. Oh, and it is not me who brought up the insecurities in the first place.

I would like to point our Bob uses Bastard Swords.

My main gripe has and always will be the fact that people feel the need to ignore RP for the sake of player power. Who cares about the lore of a class when you can make up any kind of crap you want so you can get those juicy advantages and people are forced to either swallow the half baked RP or walk away from any opportunity to make it better, because when you try to educate someone they get defensive and/or aggressive that you insulted their snowflake.

Other than that id like to see the DM's take a backseat in stories that they want to do and do the stories the players want to do for their characters perhaps in a way that benefits both parties. Im not saying this to attack anyone personally at all because i do appreciate what the team does for us but it often feels like its more about what stories the DM wants to tell.

Also consequences, Actual consequences for actions. There are a few people who like to shit on other people simply for their own entertainment and get away with it because "thats just how they are".

White wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:18 pm

Hidden: show

As someone who's technically played on BG for more than 8 years, but has never stayed for long at a time and never found a home here, let me give you my thoughts for why that is. Keep in mind, I'm from Europe, so timezone problems are a culprit to many of my concerns. These are also shared concerns with several other individuals.

For the most part, the server is mechanically too difficult and the levelling process too one-sided and dragged out. You should not need UMD, high level gear and/or a specific type of class/build to play through areas. This is, in my opinion, one of the big reasons why the focus of playerbase discussion is on powerbuilding, rather than on roleplay which 'should be' the focus on a roleplay server. And you should not have to grind the one or two areas your character is able to play for hours on end to level up - only to have to run it for hours again to reach the next level and so on. I know that you can also RP to get RP XP, but being European, there often aren't players around - or you have to resort to the so-called and much-maligned 'campfire RP' which I consider another form of grinding, again for hours on end. (And with no loot gains.)

(n.b. the previous sentence isn't meant to disparage those who do enjoy campfire RP, as I enjoy it sometimes as well, in moderation. It's merely meant to reflect how I feel when engaging in such RP and not to categorise it as something people only do to gain XP.)

In other words, there's nothing interesting to do most of the time, because the available (admittedly fairly varied, but too punishing for most builds, without significant investment of resources) content is too exclusionary. Which leads to logging out. How many people actually enjoy circle grinding xvarts and wyverns for five levels, because they happen to be the only content worth the time and money? The returns are too little, and the only reason to do any other content than the couple less difficult areas is variety. But then you find yourself unable to do that content, except in a party - and all the parties, if there are any (EU timezone), keep to xvarts and wyverns, because they're simply more optimal. Great fun.

The levelling system incentivises grinding few areas over many. The levelling system incentivises one to shut up and kill as many enemies as quickly as possible, as opposed to dungeons or quests, or something a little more varied. (Circular areas are the bane of adventure RP!)

The first 10, maybe 15, levels are the only time I've had fun playing the game on this server. There, the area progression is done well, there are many areas that are doable for most characters, and the levelling doesn't take ages. It helps a lot that at those levels there are quests, which incentivise moving from one area to another to complete the quest there for an additional xp bump. Then after that, quests mysteriously vanish, the experience gap between levels gets wider, enemy HP gets higher and area variety diminishes considerably. And then, for some inexplicable (to me) reason, in epic levels even the XP gains drop to half. Grinding, grinding, grinding! Everything takes exponentially more time, gold and effort and it becomes work rather than a leisure time activity. I know it not to be the case, but all of this makes it seem like the focus of the server is on being a grinding server and not a RP server.

Maybe it sounds like I'm only interested in mechanical areas of the experience, but that is not so and in fact is the complete opposite. In my experience, players gravitate towards areas that are good for grinding and terrible for RP because the server incentivises this. (Circular grinding areas rear their ugly head once again!) 'Adventure RP' happens rarely because of this, as well as for the reasons outlined above - the other content being too much of a strain on your funds.

So if one wishes to enjoy their time here, they -need to- find a group of players with which to play. When there aren't many characters around, especially ones compatible with yours (be it for RP reasons or mechanical reasons, i.e. roughly the same level), what's left is grinding, which has been made, though likely not deliberately, as tedious, stressful and time-consuming as possible. And when the content you can do is tedious, stressful and time-consuming, you don't do it and instead log out, lowering the player count and never meeting the other players with which to play with.

There are undeniably a myriad of other reasons for the dwindling player count too, but as a European with only a moderate tolerance for grinding, I find that it's very difficult to get into the server to even experience the roleplay, because the hill to climb to reach levels high enough to adventure with most of the playerbase is too steep.

And yes, you -can- roleplay with high level characters, but in what manner of setting? Campfire, maybe a specific kind of DM event. You have no business being in high level areas or in DM events with difficult content as anything more than a tag along.

Finally, as another poster pointed out, there isn't much randomness or variance to the content. I think it'd be great if there were random events, or bounties or something that players could hunt or come upon. For example, there could be a bounty posting (quest) for some terrible bandit who spawns randomly somewhere in the world (when a player with the quest enters that area) and players could go hunt for them. Upon catching this individual, they could take his head somewhere (to an NPC?) and gain a reward. Then next reset, there could be another bounty. Anything that makes things feel less static is a plus - bigger plus if it reflects the situation on the server. (As posted before, Banite/gnoll activity in Cloakwood, for example - although one should be careful with this as it's an area for low level characters)

There's a lot of brilliant design on this server, like the many many new and modified classes, many well-made systems which facilitate roleplay, wide range of areas and beautiful aesthetics. Sadly, I feel that those things are in many ways overshadowed by the willingness to punish players with mindful tedium.

Phew, this post is overly rambly and would get terrible marks in a writing assignment.

I've had many experiences similar to White. Im an occasional player. I play for a few months every year or so. Returning and loving how its just like i remember but with added stuff.

I love the server in general. I suffer mostly from some folks that just grind and grind or that are Epic levels and have no intention to speak with "rabble" such as myself. Even saying hello seems insurmountable to some. It is rather hard to get into the game and then ooc drama hits once you start getting into it.

The amount of times i've been pm'd by folks calling me names, insulting and such for me to find out they believe me to be someone else is just too many times really. This only happens once i get into the 20's though. Strange isnt it?

Also to answer the question someone gave white: Im here to RP. Some of you folks are amazing to dungeon RP with. Some of you aint and thats fine but keep the drama and well...inclusiveness is a problem. I've been in less DM events than there are fingers on my hands over the years. (Yes im european with odd hours).
But also to stumble upon an event to receive whisper "its not for you so many high levels showed up so we gotta make the mobs too strong for you" Or "Sorry but could you leave? Me and my friends requested the dm for this event".

Both are examples that happend to me. Thanks if you read the wall.

Edit: I do not think the server is too hard at all though. Just makes it tough when theres noone round to play with or if they just dont like your playertag for some reason?

The long standing lack of direction supported by ambling smaller projects with no clear resolution in sight and a "been there, done that" denominator.