BGTSCC's RP Environment - A Discussion

[Rhifox]

Hello,

So I've been talking with a lot of people lately about the state of BG and morale and population seem to be pretty low right now. One of the most common complaints I see is that the server is moving away from RP and towards an MMO mentality. I'd like to open a discussion with the playerbase on your concerns, and what steps we as BG staff can take to try to alleviate these issues.

So please, tell us what your concerns are with how the server operates currently, and if you have any suggestions on what we can do and implement that can improve RP on the server, write it down here.

Please keep this topic to a discussion, not an argument. I don't want players to be casting blame at each other or anything like that. I want actionable ways to improve the server going forwards, rather than assigning fault.

Thank you.

[gedweyignasia]

This video takes a position I agree with about the difference between a game and a story. Games are meant to be fair and skill-based. Stories have unfair, disproportionate consequences that can hurt a character who's done everything right. I think there's been a big push towards making things treat our players fairly, and it's had the unintended consequence of making stories less likely to develop.

There's less excitement in the world of BG right now, and people are being encouraged to treat it like a game instead. I would like to see things go in the other direction by a very large amount. Impose unfair consequences (good and bad, but much more bad than we've had in the past few years), make this about characters' stories instead of grinding a game.

We need more adverse events in characters' (not players) lives.


Skip to the relevant portion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdqhHKjepiE&t=354s

[gedweyignasia]

Sorry for the double post, but very different point:

I really miss character bios with DM rewards, because we got a lot more bios that way, and people seemed to put much more into their backstory. It feels like it's more about the build than the backstory lately, and I don't know if that was the deciding factor, but it was certainly a good nudge back when it happened.

[DaloLorn]

A few stray thoughts from my own chat with you:

• From a legislative perspective, we should probably try harder not to stifle RP opportunities out of a fear of how those opportunities could be abused. The crossplay rules, the PvP rules, the loot rules, the removal of guard factions, and so on... BG is characterized by preemptive protection by an administration that is, in short, ready to fight the last war. On this principle alone, I find SB's recent crossplay proposal extremely refreshing, regardless of how controversial or minuscule it may be. (However, discussing and reevaluating all the countless rules that were implemented to protect against players that have long since left the server is a process that could spawn a multitude of forum threads all by itself.)
• Better DM tools means happier DMs, which means more and/or more productive DMs.
• If designed properly, the following systems could each contribute considerably to RP in my opinion:
  • Monstrous PCs. I've heard rumors in Discord that these are on the way, but with no ETA yet.
  • More and more diverse environments to RP in, whether they be dungeons or social zones. The server split has really helped with this in some cases, by restoring maps that had previously been removed.
  • Crafting!
• Empowering players to tell their own stories. Many DM events lately have been large-scale arcs that, by and large, don't seem to survive the disappearance of the DMs involved... and, as with the metaplots of old, demand the attention of PCs whose players are unable to interact with the only DMs related to those plots. Meanwhile, the most enjoyable arcs I've had this year, either here or on Ravenloft, were started and driven forward by players. Smaller-scale, more personal plots that usually didn't have other players scrambling to resolve the conflict between "my PC would be all over this" and "I can't possibly get involved in this".

I think Ged's first post captures the "inadvertently stifling RP" concern pretty well, too.

As for the bio rewards from the second post, I definitely wouldn't mind them, but I suspect we'd need to get more staff (either DMs or some kind of "DM helpers") before we could get those back again.

[Hoihe]

I shall preclude what I write with such:

In my eyes, if someone says something in public or private, they mean what they said. Any claims that it was a joke are simply countermeasure taken to avoid loss of social perception after they realize their statement is not universally supported.

This belief is based on that fact that people use joking as a social probe. They say something controversial, observe how people react. Those who react positively become the in-group, while to avoid outing one's own beliefs, they claim they were joking to the butt of the joke or those who otherwise took offence.

In other words, if one "jokingly" says that a certain race/settlement only engages is ERP or whatnot... Then even if they claim they were joking - probability says they weren't, and they're just trying to avoid social backlash.

Main issue: The shattering of trust.

On both discord(s) and forums and even in-game, we have players making sweeping judgemental statements about:

• Races
• Settlements (The only thing that happens in Doron Amar is ERP! Elven Roleplay!!)
• Players
• Roleplaying preferences (Character/Experience/sensation driven RP is shit! Only stories matter!)
• Character lifespan preferences (Those who dislike permadeath are shitty RPers!)
• Character gender/appearance (Those who play attractive female PCs are all fat 45 year old balding men living in their mothers' basement!)
• Character's romantic/physical orientation (Those who play sapphic characters are all fat 45 year old balding men living in their mothers' basement!)
• Characters' being LGBT (How dare you bring politics to my medieval fantasy!)
• Emote/post length ("Paragraph posters are ERPers!")
• Motivation for RP (In discord, we had someone accuse elves of being [transphobic slur] self inserts)

Now, with how I perceive communication... I consider these to be true and held beliefs of the one who says that, despite claims to be joking. All to often these claims of jesting turned out false thanks to lovely people who felt uncomfortable in private discords and leaked some rather horrible conversations. But sometimes it wasn't a bleeding heart that revealed such - once a player belonging to such a group personally came out and said it on forums they badmouth me in particular.


With the above known, in combination with the fact that it's very easy to pretend to be a new player...

I find it difficult to interact with people I do not know, and have not investigated thoroughly either personally, or through people who I trust.

There is too high a chance that roleplaying with someone will lead to them taking an emote I wrote, or words I said IC, or an OOC statement I made, or me being tired/muddled and playing in PvE a touch more recklessly and spread it around in their private discords to attack me personally, my character or the quality of my RP.


BG needs to do something about its rampant case of badmouthing and bullying. It is the primary reason I do not log in often and avoid interacting with people. Because I know all too often all it will lead to is more ammunition for those who hate and seek to drive me off.


Secondary Issue: Must win/dominate/destroy mentality

This applies to both DMs and players alike. Every few months, seasons, years I end up discovering a case where one player tried to shame another into complying with mutilation, scarification, or in one particular "hilarious" case where they went onto discord to try and pull it off: permadeath.

People openly, unashamedly seem obsessed with the ability to make other players quit, to destroy their very reason to play, to make them feel horrible. They go on and on about how those who do not play along are horrible roleplayers because "muh story" in the semi-annual forum threads where they recommend we reduce level cap, nerf regenerate/Gr. Resto/Heal, make it limited how many times you can die, make it that dying causes unhealable conditions, or outright the ability to inflict permadeath on others.

And they all justify this with "But stories!" (do-me) stories. I do not play for stories. I play for the characters, for the sensation and experience of the setting, for the sensation of camping out in the wilderness on the way to a dungeon or settlement. But apparently that's all shit RP and I'm a horrible roleplayer for having these preferences!

And then, DM-side: Soul-stealing, fallen PCs that bugged out getting kidnapped and tortured and player agency being overruled in picking them up despite a powerful defensive line making such easy to do, unhealable injuries, marking areas as permastrike and the list goes on and it seems to get worse and worse as time goes on. It genuinely feels like DMs are hell-bent on destroying player characters.

And, it has been proven in the past that there did exist DMs who openly wanted to get rid of some characters one way or another. That there did exists DMs (with whom I saved our PM exchange) that were obsessed with "knocking adventurers down a peg and making them lose and suffer" (and ruling that a nat 20 str roll cripples you for life that even Gr. Resto/Heal/Regen cannot fix), and so forth.

This too removes any willingness one has to log in and interact with DM plots or pvp conflict. The moment such gets brought up, I try to disengage and log off because for some reason DMs think that unless they mutilated/tortured a PC, they are doing a bad job.

Tertiary Issue: Forcing groups that have no reason to interact, interact

Be it trough making it that you cannot solo areas, forcing you to party with necromancers or demon summoners to have a chance (I had someone cite that for me OOCly when I ICly called them out for partying with undead summoners).

Or through weird cases where the NPC king of a dwarven settlement, for some reason, asks for the faction they are at open/cold war with, to help them defend their gates against trolls that are specifically designed that you cannot teleport away...

If you want to fix clique issues, don't do it by forcing people who have no reason to ICly interact. Do it by fixing the rampant bullying and harassment issues.

Quaternary issue: Minor things

At the moment, the only way to turn a profit is through quantity of loot, and the need for short-term buffs.

This means that my preferred adventuring style - where I gather some alignment/race/faith compatible characters, depart from a central location and make camp as appropriate to the distance and roleplay the slice of life of an adventuring band, proceed slowly and methodically through a dungeon where emotes are used to describe combat, healing spell casting, non-healing spell casting, using consumables. Basically emotes to ensure everyone is experiencing the same scene, the same sensations - enhancing immersion. All that is impossible if spending 3-4 hours on looting just the frost giants means your party is less appealing than the wordless loot rush group. All that is impossible if you must have a constant mirror image/displacement/zoo buffs and so forth active not to die horribly to an encounter unless using a powerbuild that can solo unbuffed (and everyone in the party too is able to solo unbuffed).

Area variety

This one I'm not going to say much as I understand this one is being resolved. I only mention it as I feel it impacts RP, as people are forced to loot the same area over and over again to obtain wealth which leads to some issues with interpretations ("We're going to a similar orc cave to wipe out, it's new and dangerous so let's move slowly" vs "Oh I've been here N times, I know it like the back of my hand!") clashing (kind of falls into forcing partying tho I guess, since both sides have their own ways to resolve area variety issues but ways that clash).

Only way to attain wealth is through looting

This mostly creates an issue for merchant and sailor and similar guilds. The leader has to pay their employees. But, the only way to pay players a fair amount (considering our prices) is for the leadership to be constantly looting.

And taking the employees looting may go against the guild's RP. Like again, some merchant guild focused on raw material transport. "Hey, you joined us to be a scout for our caravans... Do be a spot and help me kill this frost giant king to let me pay you!"

DM/Story dependence

I feel this causes an issue in itself. When people log in for "stories" rather than the sensation of their character interacting with the world, when those stories don't happen... the degree of invested effort reduces which leads to people standing around a campfire semi-afk and posting a message every now and then.

I was questioning making this point, as I feel it partially makes me a hypocrite for saying RP preferences should not be judged. Not sure how to resolve that conflict.

[Planehopper]

I think the biggest impediment to a healthy RP environment is not easily fixed by a shift in focus, process, or policy. I don't think it's one staff group, or the players alone. It is culture based.

We all need to do better at letting go of preconceived notions about who/what the other players are or are not, and leave the angst, the personal disagreements, and the other ooc issues to ooc realms.

As we bleed players month over month we are left with entrenched cliques that are sure that X is Y, and that Y is the worst. An increased need to be right and argue out everything. To see disagreement as hostility. To hold onto transgressions long past. That applies to staff and players, you (the impersonal you) and me, everyone.

We will never agree completely about what needs fixed, what the causes are behind it, or how to fix it. That's human nature exacerbated by internet anonymity. But we all would be better served by releasing prejudiced feelings about the hidden meanings, motivations, and desires of people that we have (in one way or another) decided was the bad guy.

I am not sure whether that is actually possible. But I dont see this place healing itself from a shift in policy or a focus by one staff group or the other. It will need to be holistic.

[Shadowspinner70]

I agree with Hoihe here, at least in the spirit of things. I won't argue on what happened or what hasn't happened, but OOC drama is killing our RP. I'm so burnt out, so tired of wanting to avoid or avoiding people based off of the constant influx of "have you heard this?" I've even heard things I absolutely would report if I could. But I can't. And we all fall into this circle of the rumor mill and avoiding this or that person, and it's absolutely toxic to our RP environment.

I used to be afraid of Doron Amar folks, or at least wary. Then I actually started RPing with with. Then I hear their side of things and it at least matches up against OOC "whisperings."

After realizing I was so burnt out, I kept popping in here, but mostly I've been hopping, in part to figure out why I'm so burnt out. It's really the drama. It was such sweet relief when I popped in, joined the forums, refused to touch the discord with a 50 foot pole, and literally only focused on my RP. I can name several RPers who have left because of drama. Because eventually, it becomes before the RP, it becomes a negative experience that overrides the good RP.

As for Ged and Dalo's posts, I agree with yall, but I have two points to add to: crafting and guards.

Our server has been around for a decade and still doesn't have crafting beyond wands and potions. This is the only server I've found without crafting, though granted I didn't look very hard. The high RP servers I've found also don't really have epic shops, none that I can at least see. Your end game gear will be made by players or looted. If you find a shop with the gear, it'll be ran by a player you can haggle with, not just an auction like Mudd's.

As for guards, bring them back. Make them log every little incident, every fine they take complete with the law broken, every punishment, because first off, it's not just a power trip, it's a responsibility. Maybe make a lack of logging cause for termination. As for corruption; take care of it IC. If you wanna play a vigilante, go ahead, you might not succeed though. If you want to be more diplomatic, gather the evidence, bring it to the captain, or higher if you need to.

That higher would be the DMs, where if you send the report to the Dukes, they'll toss that out. Guards are below their level. Sending in an IC report also causes a lot less drama than OOC complaints, and as per the history of our server, eventual bullying.

In S'shamath, you best bring up your evidence or make up airtight evidence, especially if you're a non-drow, given only drow can become citizens, or you best have the right friends. Drow won't care if you know, they know, or whatever, but there's no evidence.

Drow will applaud a drow priestess who kills her sisters and mother with several assassins, and everyone knows it was clearly her, but there's no evidence. You could technically put a hit on your rival, it somehow remains clean and no evidence, everyone knows you got them killed, and no one would care. Most drow would applaud the hustle.

So hustle, ladies.

[renshouj]

Prefacing that I am a new(ish) player, and so I'm not familiar with the server's history of events, past drama, discussions, etc, here's what I think:

I came to this server for RP and RP only, I do enjoy mechanics, but I've no interest in dungeon crawling without RP. Hell, one of my characters is a straight up pacifist and the other has an RP build. But at the same time I understand that not everyone is like me, and the "your fun is wrong" is a decades old saying in DND that is meant as a way of gate-keeping and shaming. But I'd like for the server to strive towards more RP, since that's what will keep me and my friends that have joined the server interested.

I very much agree with the past posts, and as for Hoihe's I fortunately have not encountered things like player hostility OOC, but I very much think that's because I'm a newer player and haven't been in contact with most of the current community.

I believe RP should have consequences, from very small to very big, planned ones. I don't mean permadeath, though I fully believe permadeath is an important and useful tool for rp. I also don't mean "bad" consequences, rewarding good, in depth RP is important and I don't know how far the server's DMs do it.

For a month I've been very present in the server, even though I haven't explored many circles (I do feel like the server has MANY "cliques", and getting inside of them is really hard, but tbh thats a player-created problem, and like Planehopper said, its something we ALL need to change), and have had contact with one player plot. I feel like personal plots should be encouraged by dms, not just "over-arching", or faction plots. Personally I don't want to be saving the whole region of whatever, I want my own personal, character growth. Which I'll do on my own, but I believe should be facilitated by DMs where possible. This also means there's less conflict between two really different groups of people and things can be more tailored towards the ones involved, which I feel like would be a better experience for everyone.

Also, just to mention something I've already said in one of the discords, the current RNG loot system is kinda garbo. It encourages looting just for looting, which has been the most "MMO"ish, grindy part of the game for me. Adding other methods of obtaining loot (like crafting) should be a priority. In the long-term, changing how the RNG loot works in general, making it less luck based and more satisfactory, maybe through long questlines that give you a cool reward.

I don't want to run everyone's ears off, I think people with more experience in the server will give better feedback and opinions, but I've been pretty active in these discussions so I wanted to voice my thoughts. Thank you for the opportunity to talk!

[gedweyignasia]

But at the same time I understand that not everyone is like me, and the "your fun is wrong" is a decades old saying in DND that is meant as a way of gate-keeping and shaming. But I'd like for the server to strive towards more RP, since that's what will keep me and my friends that have joined the server interested.

I agree that "your fun is wrong" is definitely a bad take. However, it's important to be able to distinguish between deciding what someone should think is fun and deciding what the server should be built for.

[CarlPoppa]

I haven't read all the other posts, but I wanted to voice my opinion, so sorry if I repeat stuff.

Since I've returned to the server, I've had a lot of fun, and I am very impressed with the server split. None of what I write is intended to step on anyone!

I feel we lack more randomness and an actual lurking threat; I realize this might be because of my time zone, or I'm uninformed. Some examples!

1. The Cloakwood Wood vs. Flaming Fist business: I'm told IC that I should avoid the Cloakwood woods because of dangerous gnolls and Bhaal worshippers. However, I never feel this when actually playing? The addition of the Flaming Fist camp was awesome, but I've never felt the threat!

2. Broodmother(s)? in the High Moor, I saw this in the rumor thread, and my character was warned about going to the High Moors ICly, but once again, I've never felt the threat; nothing ever happened when I went there.

It often feels like the posts I read in the IC thread section and what happens when I'm logged in are out of sync?

Another thing I've been struggling with is finding things to do? I absolutely love to RP, and I do it as much as possible, but when you either can't find people or the ones available aren't people my character would willingly talk to, what should I be doing? I spend much time looting, but it very easily becomes a grind.

Just my two cents!

[YYA]

Main issue: The shattering of trust.

On both discord(s) and forums and even in-game, we have players making sweeping judgemental statements about:

1. Races
2. Settlements (The only thing that happens in Doron Amar is ERP! Elven Roleplay!!)
3. Players
4. Roleplaying preferences (Character/Experience/sensation driven RP is (#2)! Only stories matter!)
5. Character lifespan preferences (Those who dislike permadeath are (p00pie) RPers!)
6. Character gender/appearance (Those who play attractive female PCs are all fat 45 year old balding men living in their mothers' basement!)
7. Character's romantic/physical orientation (Those who play sapphic characters are all fat 45 year old balding men living in their mothers' basement!)
8. Characters' being LGBT (How dare you bring politics to my medieval fantasy!)
9. Emote/post length ("Paragraph posters are ERPers!")
10. Motivation for RP (In discord, we had someone accuse elves of being [transphobic slur] self inserts)

1. This server was not created yesterday, and when it comes to monster races such as orcs and drow: unless one comes up with a massively contrived reason not to treat a member of a monster race the same as an actual monster, the role-play these encounters tend to offer are often of nothing but one side demanding the other to either 'Flee or Die.' It is something that just grows old very fast, and thus, it easily sours player perspective whenever they see a character of particular race.
2. Well, the only role-play that happens in Doron Amar is indeed ERP! Elven role-play! And saying it will never stop being funny for me. I will even go as far as engrave it to my eventual tombstone. The point raised previously also applies here.
3. And when it comes to perception when it comes to other players; if all your interactions are negative, well over time it tends to become very hard to say anything positive about the guy. So sometimes it is good to take a break, little distance, and to think of a honest compliment about such a person. It helps keep your perception more grounded. Now, there is a player on this server I have decided to hate until the hell freezes over, and that guy is still probably the only one who can keep up with my typing speed when I actually give an effort to role-play.
4. People have their role-play preferences, and my role-play preferences are about having an adventure. Sure, character experiences and sensations along with stories may contribute towards my preferred type of adventuring roleplay, but sitting at benches around a campfire to talk about things is just something rather dull for me. You can try to meet people half-way, but sometimes the interests just do not align.
5. As for permadeath, as it is in any other game, some people just find the 'hardcore' mode more exciting. You know, there can be a real loss, and thus they cannot treat the game as a yet another video game where they have infinite lives or god-mode cheat written in. And when you play a 'permadeath' character with people who do not, you will naturally have to take considerations that other players do not. You can just risk some unknown area, etc, you have to weigh in the risks and rewards. Thus when one player is seeing all that effort to think things through, while most other people are not, it is not that difficult to see why -- or how -- they might begin regard themselves as ones with the higher role-play standards. But standards alone do not define the actual quality of role-play, but if you cannot shake the feeling that someone with higher standards produces better role-play results, well adhere to the standards yourself and you might overcome the gap you have percieved to exist. Following through with high standards is not easy, but people do it because it manifests desirable results.
6. Well, if you are balding 45 man living in your mother's basement, there are things you can do about it. You can shave your head bald, which has always looked better than most balding heads, or you can start wearing a wig. As for where you live, well, perhaps it is time to get your life in order and move out to your own house? Another option is to just look in the mirror, and if what greets you is a 45 year old balding man who lives in his mother's basement, and you are unwilling to do anything to change it, well, then just own up to it and admit who you are. Just say: yes, what of it? As for role-playing a character of the opposing sex, well, there are biological differences in human behaviour and preferences, and failure to meet these behavioural expectations may indeed suggest that the player behind the character is of the opposite sex.
7. As for romantic role-play, I am not interested in such. This server in general might not be a place to have such role-play, and if my memory serves: there is -- or at least was -- a server for it called Haven.
8. The LGBT stuff is quite literally politics, identity politics, and it is the worst kind of politics where a single aspect of a person is used to categorize and define the entire character of the very individual. It would be the same thing as seeing the Bob the Warrior hold a sword, and then reducing the entire character of our Bob into the sword he holds.
9. I read and type relatively fast, I do not mind. But sometimes people do not want to read a post-modern dialectic about the appearance of a locked chest, they just want it opened, and move on before their buffs wear out and the entire party gets fugued.
10. And here is another good moment to slap your cheeks and ask yourself: 'Why do I care so much about some random stranger's opinion?' You kind of have to look into the mirror and ask yourself why it bothers you, and whether or not it is something true. If it is not, you are free to ignore it. If it is true, then either you do something about it, or you gather the mental fortitude to accept the reality as it is. Now, if we must specically speak about the appearance of elves, elves in Forgotten Realms are not exactly known for their facial hair, and their physical description tends to lean towards adjectives most commonly used to describe attractive women. So, in a sense it is kind of like how ancient Celts would have described the clean shaven and small men in the legions of the early Roman republic. More so after slaughtering an entire legion, and then lamenting their loss at the hands of such feminine men as one legion after another kept marching towards them.

And before anyone interprets this as a personal attack or taking sides in whatever conflict may be currently running: as I have always done on these forums, I am merely playing as the devils advocate here. There is always two sides to each coin, and perhaps a narrow gab where the two may find some form of an agreement.

[Alonso]

Hidden: show

Main issue: The shattering of trust.

On both discord(s) and forums and even in-game, we have players making sweeping judgemental statements about:

1. Races
2. Settlements (The only thing that happens in Doron Amar is ERP! Elven Roleplay!!)
3. Players
4. Roleplaying preferences (Character/Experience/sensation driven RP is (#2)! Only stories matter!)
5. Character lifespan preferences (Those who dislike permadeath are (p00pie) RPers!)
6. Character gender/appearance (Those who play attractive female PCs are all fat 45 year old balding men living in their mothers' basement!)
7. Character's romantic/physical orientation (Those who play sapphic characters are all fat 45 year old balding men living in their mothers' basement!)
8. Characters' being LGBT (How dare you bring politics to my medieval fantasy!)
9. Emote/post length ("Paragraph posters are ERPers!")
10. Motivation for RP (In discord, we had someone accuse elves of being [transphobic slur] self inserts)

1. This server was not created yesterday, and when it comes to monster races such as orcs and drow: unless one comes up with a massively contrived reason not to treat a member of a monster race the same as an actual monster, the role-play these encounters tend to offer are often of nothing but one side demanding the other to either 'Flee or Die.' It is something that just grows old very fast, and thus, it easily sours player perspective whenever they see a character of particular race.
2. Well, the only role-play that happens in Doron Amar is indeed ERP! Elven role-play! And saying it will never stop being funny for me. I will even go as far as engrave it to my eventual tombstone. The point raised previously also applies here.
3. And when it comes to perception when it comes to other players; if all your interactions are negative, well over time it tends to become very hard to say anything positive about the guy. So sometimes it is good to take a break, little distance, and to think of a honest compliment about such a person. It helps keep your perception more grounded. Now, there is a player on this server I have decided to hate until the hell freezes over, and that guy is still probably the only one who can keep up with my typing speed when I actually give an effort to role-play.
4. People have their role-play preferences, and my role-play preferences are about having an adventure. Sure, character experiences and sensations along with stories may contribute towards my preferred type of adventuring roleplay, but sitting at benches around a campfire to talk about things is just something rather dull for me. You can try to meet people half-way, but sometimes the interests just do not align.
5. As for permadeath, as it is in any other game, some people just find the 'hardcore' mode more exciting. You know, there can be a real loss, and thus they cannot treat the game as a yet another video game where they have infinite lives or god-mode cheat written in. And when you play a 'permadeath' character with people who do not, you will naturally have to take considerations that other players do not. You can just risk some unknown area, etc, you have to weigh in the risks and rewards. Thus when one player is seeing all that effort to think things through, while most other people are not, it is not that difficult to see why -- or how -- they might begin regard themselves as ones with the higher role-play standards. But standards alone do not define the actual quality of role-play, but if you cannot shake the feeling that someone with higher standards produces better role-play results, well adhere to the standards yourself and you might overcome the gap you have percieved to exist. Following through with high standards is not easy, but people do it because it manifests desirable results.
6. Well, if you are balding 45 man living in your mother's basement, there are things you can do about it. You can shave your head bald, which has always looked better than most balding heads, or you can start wearing a wig. As for where you live, well, perhaps it is time to get your life in order and move out to your own house? Another option is to just look in the mirror, and if what greets you is a 45 year old balding man who lives in his mother's basement, and you are unwilling to do anything to change it, well, then just own up to it and admit who you are. Just say: yes, what of it? As for role-playing a character of the opposing sex, well, there are biological differences in human behaviour and preferences, and failure to meet these behavioural expectations may indeed suggest that the player behind the character is of the opposite sex.
7. As for romantic role-play, I am not interested in such. This server in general might not be a place to have such role-play, and if my memory serves: there is -- or at least was -- a server for it called Haven.
8. The LGBT stuff is quite literally politics, identity politics, and it is the worst kind of politics where a single aspect of a person is used to categorize and define the entire character of the very individual. It would be the same thing as seeing the Bob the Warrior hold a sword, and then reducing the entire character of our Bob into the sword he holds.
9. I read and type relatively fast, I do not mind. But sometimes people do not want to read a post-modern dialectic about the appearance of a locked chest, they just want it opened, and move on before their buffs wear out and the entire party gets fugued.
10. And here is another good moment to slap your cheeks and ask yourself: 'Why do I care so much about some random stranger's opinion?' You kind of have to look into the mirror and ask yourself why it bothers you, and whether or not it is something true. If it is not, you are free to ignore it. If it is true, then either you do something about it, or you gather the mental fortitude to accept the reality as it is. Now, if we must specically speak about the appearance of elves, elves in Forgotten Realms are not exactly known for their facial hair, and their physical description tends to lean towards adjectives most commonly used to describe attractive women. So, in a sense it is kind of like how ancient Celts would have described the clean shaven and small men in the legions of the early Roman republic. More so after slaughtering an entire legion, and then lamenting their loss at the hands of such feminine men as one legion after another kept marching towards them.

And before anyone interprets this as a personal attack or taking sides in whatever conflict may be currently running: as I have always done on these forums, I am merely playing as the devils advocate here. There is always two sides to each coin, and perhaps a narrow gab where the two may find some form of an agreement.

1. I'm pretty sure we're not even talking about monstrous races here. And even if we do - don't you think negative judgements held OOCly are still going to negatively impact experience of players who may want to play monstrous races? Or interact with monstrous races? Still applies to any race tbh
2. I guess? But also let's not pretend that elven role-play is the only thing ERP could mean, and that it doesn't have any negative connotations on PG-13 PW (as clearly shown by your own take on point 7). Also ERP is likely not the only sweeping judgement that can be made about settlements/factions
3. Cool advice! Let's all collectively do that sometimes. But also our dislike for other people shouldn't really pour into IC interactions, preferably. Especially if it will hamper experiences of people who aren't involved in our local feuds. (Not to mention that, y'know, OOC server-wide interactions also exist and can easily hamper players ability to enjoy server)
4. This doesn't even address the point that people will judge other people for their RP preferences, clearly you aren't a terrible person for liking adventures and I shouldn't be considered a terrible person or terrible RPer for liking benches
5. Maaaaybe don't frame it as "People with hardcore characters have higher standards for RP " as it's too easy to mistake for "People with hardcore characters produce better quality of role-play" which defeats your whole point. Also nobody so far said that they envy the higher standards of RP other players have?
6. Uh... What? Nothing of what you said has anything to do with the point, it reads as an insult more than anything.
7. I feel you. I'm also not interested in romantic roleplay at this point in life. But also, romance is very much PG-13? And I'm pretty sure Haven is not the place for romance, but a place for ERP, not sure what are you on about
8. Me existing is not politics. My character existing is not politics. Loving women is not politics. Also your point only works if you yourself reduce LGBTQ+ people to their identity, which defeats your whole rant about identities?
9. Again, preferences are valid, but maybe don't make sweeping judgements on people?
10. In the example given, the strangers opinion is not just held, but voiced and makes environment more hostile to some people.


Also it's very hard to read your post as playing devil's advocate and not insulting Hoihe? You mention and refer to insecurities too often, that's just weird

[Ravial]

ERP = Elven Roleplay. It's true.

Anyway, to be more constructive:

1. There's no trust in this environment.
2. There's a lot of trash-talking each other.
3. There's no middle-ground made for which all character concepts can coexist without large amounts of suspense of disbelief.
4. I understand that some people seek escapism in this game, but I think people get -too involved- in their characters.
5. Status Quo is what kills the server. No matter what happens, the status quo remains.
6. There's no trust in DMs and their work. Imagine doing server setting RP without DMs and getting anywhere beyond private friends RP. Yeah, no.
7. Guilds have become way too tribal. "You're either with my tribe or you're against it!!!11!111!!!!oneoneone". I aim this at no one in particular. It's just a recurring theme over the years.
8. Dead guilds need to be removed. Seriously. If there's literally not even ONE player that's active throughout weeks- months even- just remove the guild from the picture. It's not important anymore if it's not getting involved in any roleplay at all. Can't properly expect to hobnob on people saying "WELL BACK IN THE DAY!!!!" and everyone- most importantly DMs- to just go with it and accept it as a present situation.
9. Belonging to guilds became meaningless as DMs are wary to do anything with them. It's something that began when I was still a DM and which has only ever progressed. The easiest way to stay on the team is to do no events because people are all too eager to cry foul for even a most slight mistake.

How to fix it?
No easy solution. Drastic measures should be taken to gradually change the rules that are pointlessly restrictive and, in lieu of that, do attempt at shifting the culture of the server.

Also, the server finally needs to decide what it wants to be. Currently, it seems like it wants to be a social RP server with some adventuring elements and maybe a plot from DMs that is, ultimately, forced to always be a success- no matter what happens.


Vagueness aside:

• Trust isn't easily fixed. I honestly don't know what to do here, since that is being broken every other day on every level of the server- staff or not.
• The lack of middle-ground largely stems from the server having no direction. If we want to be a Roleplay server, Character Backgrounds approvals need to return.
• How to combat escapism? No easy way to do it. No idea how to tackle this issue without breaking a few (at least) hearts.
• Allow changes to be persistent. Did the economy crash? Heck, it crashed and it won't return without help. Did a war ended up with large losses of farmers and crops? Starvation sets in, then. Your character got its name dragged through the mud due to your own actions? Own it up and try to better or worsen it even further. DMs need to be able to do this. They need to be able to set the setting with appropriate consequences for places, characters and etc. Literally, nothing is persistent IRL. It shouldn't be in a roleplaying D&D game. The game is designed for adventuring, causing and solving problems. For battle.
• No trust in DMs stems from two things: 1. Players overeagerly reporting things they don't like and 2. DMs are not being taught how to DM properly anymore. Fix at least the latter and the former won't be a problem as much as it is.
• It always has been my thought that the server would benefit from a lesser number of guilds allowed to exist. Whether or not that's possible- This is a problem stemming from the culture of being unkind bastards to each other for whatever stupid reason there is. People don't change as quickly as the rules do so I don't see any fast or good way to solve this.
• I did already answer it in the problems I have presented. Let past be past and leave space for new stories.
• Guilds need to be less afraid that DMs are out to get them. Because they're not meant to be. If some DM actually IS- that should be reported and the DM and his/her attitude handled by HDM, ideally. Likewise, DMs need to be allowed to approach players with roleplay about their guild easier than having to ask the leadership (that is often not online) for APPROVAL of doing ANYTHING relating to npcs from an x or y faction. Also, DMs need to stop being held in a corporative-esque environment that punishes rather than rewards for anything done. Give DMs autonomy, go away with micromanagement from upper echelons of the staff.

[mastajabba]

To be honest all games have “cliques”

I mean we log on here to have fun with friends and there are people that you “gel” with some you don’t “gel” with. I log on almost every night and play with a group of people that we consider ourselves friends. Hell some of this “clique” has even met up irl to hang out. I was supposed to take a player from here for beers and steaks with my fiancé but wasn’t able to get the proper tests for border crossing.

I can say 99% reason that people complain about cliques is because they feel excluded, which lets get real sometimes that’s just the best option. If a players IC or OOC or even IC and OOC reason has made me ignore you. It’s best than me going on some immersion breaking OOC fest.

Everyone here doesn't have to be pals but we have to be cordial to each other. If someone comes at me with something I do not want any part of either player or character. I will ignore it. I won’t make a scene or do anything stupid or even bother already busy DM’s with any beef.

[Anrilor]

RP Environment

This has been the primary reason for my taking a break from the server. It stems from many areas of frustrations that have built up sense around march of this year. Most of it is OOC grief, not that I personally get that much, but that I hear all sides of any interaction that went poorly, I ask the questions of what happened, and I make my own informed judgement to the best of my ability. I do my best to have it not influence my IC interactions. OOC stays OOC, IC stays IC to the best of my abilities. This however is a dying thing. I've seen and heard complaints of people trying to stop RP with OOC tells going "No no, you are not hearing my character. what they really mean is Y." "Ugh, I can't believe X showed up to this event, I can't stand them, I'm gonna bounce." and the player logs. There are some grudges here that go back half as long as the server has existed. This only gets fixed with Planehopper's mentality, that as a community, we need to do better, and look in the mirror and wonder if the grudge we have made against the other player is really worth holding onto.

Then there are the Eccentric Characters and while I do not have anything against characters with quirks, unique personalities, etc. Of late there seems to be an influx of the 'Crazy, over the top, how have you survived to adulthood, can't function in normal society' type characters. And often when these characters run into each other, or in a DM event, their sole existence is to be loud, potentially dangerous to those around them, high level of insanity and must be more insane then the person next to them and 5x more obnoxious, just to make sure the DM sees you and has to interact with you, however, if you move to ICly excise them because of their dangers or behaviors, you are yelled at OOCly for Exclusionary RP, and the DM gets complaints filed against them for 'favoritism.'

Which leads me to my last point of the state of our RP Environment, Consequences, Apperently everyone not only wants their cake, but the chocolate malt, a banana split, and a large pale of cookie dough, and eat that every day without ever worrying about gaining a pound. "I'm a former dreadlord, and sense I said former you have no reason to be mean to me, or deny me access to the good guy secret conversations as this character IC, cause I totally quit and did nothing in the intermediary to show a change of heart. If you are mean or disrespectful in any way ICly, I take OOC offense to that, and will constantly correct you through emotes, tells, and complaints to staff until you change your RP and stop being mean to me." "I have a half a dozen throw away characters, but DMs should still include me in prolonged plots because to do otherwise is exclusionary, if I choose to throw out a character that is a key plot point in x plot, that's the DMs problem, not mine, he should know that going in." In short, "I'm not wrong, you can't hold me to account for past actions/affiliations, and you are the one that needs to change." is just avoidance and excuses for consequences. You want to be the evil, big bad, monster like character that rules over a faction known for despotism, authoritarianism, and murder, worships evil gods and sacrifices slaves on the weekly? ok fine, but don't expect to be able to show up and have a light conversation with a paladin. In our setting, Good has an aura, Evil has an Aura, they are tangible things, not this meta-psychological debate over what is and is not allowed in society and wither or not society is wrong. As such there needs to be tangible consequences to you deciding to play a certain character. But it seems that people are either willfully ignoring it, or hate when such things are played out and take OOC offence to IC reactions to other IC actions taken.

If you act as an outcast to society ICly, expect to be treated as such, and if you are, don't take OOC offense to people avoiding and shaming your character ICly. you chose to play a certain character, that character comes with certain consequences, and those consequences get played out ICly.

Character vs Build

Adjacent to to RP Environment, is how characters are made, and they are generally made with 2 sets of thought processes. "What sort of character do I want to play, and what sort of build would suit it?" and then "What sort of build do I want to play, and what sort of character would that produce?" While neither are intrinsically at fault the Character first method tends to produces well rounded characters, as thought into their personality comes first and then builds later, these characters usually go through an RCR process over time and tend to last a bit longer due to the interest being in the Character then the Build. The second tends to produce a strong character, but the personality is weak, and this used to be rectified with the Bio Reviews. These characters however, tend to be throw aways, as once the player is bored with the build, they dispose of them for the next build and the character falls to the wayside.

As the reward for submitting a lore appropriate bio was give 1k of exp, meaning you got to level 2 right away (non ECL). And this would help new players to the FR work to learn their lore, and work with a DM to understand how their character could fit into the setting. Once we got rid of the reward, less people put work into it, because there was nothing to be 'gained' and 'gamed' for themselves. This in my opinion weakened the new arrivals chances to learn about the setting, and as a result fell further and further from FR lore. This resulted in, over time, either generic characters with near 0 personality, until they hit 30 and had nothing better to do then RP at the fire, but had no real backstory to fall on, because they only focused on a build and are only now looking at developing the character, or highly Eccentric characters that have no true reason to be in the setting, other then to be loud, obnoxious, and troll like annoying, because that's what the Player has fun doing. Few and far between are the setting true characters, that have a background, a purpose, and fit into the setting. Now yes, the Bio application and review process requires the players to put forth effort into learning the setting, and a DM to ensure it is in line with the setting and assisting the player on their research to help bring them in line and understand the setting enough they can RP a new bright eyed wanderer.

Now these Bios were never 'required' but because there was a reward for doing so, there was a 'game' to it. And that game required a DM that was extremely knowledgeable in pre ToT lore, that was willing to put in time in reviewing these bios submitted, and a player that was willing to accept criticisms and adjust their bio as needed to have a character background suitable to the setting. Without the System to be 'Gamed,' people took advantage of it and slowly over time stopped caring about the character behind the build, wither or not it was lore appropriate, setting appropriate, or in some cases, even rule appropriate. It was something that helped keep continuity with the setting. Now it feels like the only conversations that happen are build conversations, there is no talk of character concepts outside of "What classes and feats do I need to take to be able to do X content." As a result, the RP, and setting adherence has slowly withered away. This has in turn slowly eroded the RP environment.

Which is unfortunate, because Forgotten Realms lore is rich, with many prebuilt in conflicts, all ripe for the picking. But then we handicapped a conflict through player actions with the trade treaty, A lords Allience member trading with the Zhents. And then the cries of 'its too hard to play evil' became a common cry, why? because if you did half the evil actions you wanted to, that was lore appropriate, you would be in violation of the treaty and break the progress of one player. Tieflings are Devil/demon spawn, and yet we treat the horns and tails as familiar as goats and cats. And if you show an inclination of racism towards them, you get stared at like you are the crazy one. Now there are characters that have earned the right of that level of respect, through their work and deeds. But for the most part any fiendblood are accepted as readily as any human. Now while I am not saying racism is good, for our setting, it exists, and in a strong fashion, and can be a point of character growth by both sides.

So how to fix all this?

Community Guidance

What I believe is lacking is a sort of Mission Statement of what this community is. We advertise a RP community built in the FR setting of Baulder's gate, and the nearby sword coast and part of the western heartlands, in the pre ToT 2.0 lore (that is about to head into ToT next year). This Mission statement would come from the admins, and be considered in every judgement of the Rules, how the rules are formed, goals and objectives of the Dev Team, what to expect from the HDM and DMs, what the Moderators do, and what players can expect and are expected to do, to join our community. As it stands, as far as I am aware, there is no such mission statement to unify around. It sort of feels that our point of pride "we allow all types of RPers" is really just a hope to meet at a place of the lowest common denominator to keep our numbers high and give a perception of a certain level of activity, however, some decisions that have been made have slowly destroyed even that base common denominator because you advertise one thing, but the community is acting in another, and in general it can leave players confused as to what is expected of the community and what the community expects of them.

Ideally the Mission statement would read something like this:

BG:TSCC Mission Statement

We are a NWN2 Role Play community, based in Forgotten Realms 2.0 Lore that is heading into the Time of Troubles story arcs. Our setting is that of a PG-13 Baulder's Gate, the Sword Coast, and west into the Western Heartlands. We have several NPC factions that Players may join through RP, including temples, the Radiant Heart, the Everwatch Knights, and the Zhentarium. However we also allow players to create their own factions through guild play, and can create their own guild houses. While allowing players to advance to level 30, we aim to provide a medium magic world with adjustments to spells, limited crafting, and a max power level of spells.

Admin Duites and Responsibilities
They set the overarching goal of the community, and help guide the DMs, Devs, and players to create a cohesive RP community. They are the shepherds of the community and have authority of final word on any matter and it can be considered settled should they deem it necessary to the health of the community.

HDM and DM Duties and Responsibilities
The HDM is responsible for the overall story and narration of events on the server. They facilitate the arching storylines and help provide assistance to DMs in terms of guidance and recommendations for stories. They ensure the community stays within the bounds of the setting, while still allowing player agency. DMs take their lead from the HDM, and assist players in events, running them, and answering any questions about the setting in general. During times of rule breaking DMs may step in and moderate the situation as needed. During these times players are expected to take the DMs statements as fact, and any issue with it can be brought up on the forums with the HDM or Admins as needed.

Developer Duties and Responsibilities
Devs make and create the world around us through area building, scripting, and modeling of outfits, faces, hairstyles, etc. They create the play space we all share and interact with. Anything that may affect story, narration, or balancing, needs to be brought before the DMs before being brought live to ensure it is both Lore and setting appropriate.

Moderator Duties and Responsibilities.
Moderators are in charge of keeping the forums and Discord chats clear of disrespectful arguments and comments, keeping the community clean and within the PG-13 setting. They can rule on temporary bans of these places, and make suggestions of what players need to be removed for the health and welfare of the community.

Player Duties and Responsibilities
Players need to know the rules, abide by them, respect their fellow community members, and enjoy the world before them. Be as inclusive or exclusive as your character would dictate and help bring the world alive though believable lore and setting appropriate characters.

The Idea of the Mission statement is to have a brief summery of what is expected of each member of the community and what role they fall into/volunteer for. Ideally DMs would only be in charge of Stories and Lore, however given the DM client also has Moderator abilities in game, that has to fall on their shoulders while we can assign moderators to the forums and Discord. The other option would be to Give Moderators a DM client access, but only for moderation purposes so the DMs can focus on story telling as their primary and only report moderation acts to the Moderators for further disciplinary actions. That would be my one change if I could, to ease the burden and responsibilities of the DMs to have to play IG moderator and story teller.

Ultimately the Mission Statement for our community needs to answer a few things

What is this community about? RP? PvE? PvP? PvPvE? Builds? Ability to Solo? Need to Party?
What is expected of each member of the community?
What is the direction and goals of the community?

Lastly there is something that needs to be addressed and answered by the community and agreed upon.

What are the Expectations between DMs and Players?

For me, I have expected DMs to tell stories, and aid players through NPCs and narration. If there is a story heavy element that I wish to tell, or an event to hold, and I can use my own magic/placables to do it, I try not to get a DM involved. Its not that I don't want to have DMs participate, but if I can do the job as a player with my character, and tell a story and involve many people, I would rather do that. When the stories I want to tell require NPCs or some sort of action, that is when I will reach out to the DMs. When I need or want to interact with players, I seek them out. when I want to interact with the world, Outside of what is already provided, I seek out the DMs. That's the general philosophy I maintain as my expectation between myself as a player, and the DMs.

If you managed to get this far, bless your heart, you made it to the end.