BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

[yyj]

And nobody goes in to a dungeon for the "Role play experience and immersion" So just. Let them be easy, the less time people spend farming the more time they spend role playing and the less power those monsters have the less reason people have to min max every stat. Sure some people will do it anyway but who cares?

I do, and it's very fulfilling and wholesome because even if I don't loot anything good I still have fun.

[DaloLorn]

And nobody goes in to a dungeon for the "Role play experience and immersion" So just. Let them be easy, the less time people spend farming the more time they spend role playing and the less power those monsters have the less reason people have to min max every stat. Sure some people will do it anyway but who cares?

I do, and it's very fulfilling and wholesome because even if I don't loot anything good I still have fun.

Likewise. One of the few things I can still do these days is RP through a dungeon with whatever level-appropriate strangers I can scrounge up in my timezone. This is also one of the most effective springboards into a future connection with those PCs; for instance, literally all of Rinn's friends (using the term loosely) started out as her adventuring companions.

[YYA]

Optimization isn't required.

This server is far easier than a lot of other servers.

If you choose purposefully some RP gimmick that you know makes your character weak, don't expect to roll all the content solo.

Leveling is long and tedious, yes. Optimization won't help speed it up that much. The thing that speeds it up the most is grouping up.

Optimization is required, because going for some RP gimmick will make your character weak. For example, let us say that I wish to make a Sorcerer that wishes to set the whole world in fire, like Qara from the original campaign of NWN2, who by default has filled her spell book with fire based spells that are utterly useless on this server. The best way to make such a fire based arcanist on this server is to play in the Underdark, buy as many scrolls of Fireburst you can, and going to the mushroom grove to blast things with those scrolls of Fireburst. And then later, you do the same as you run around hasted, around a Wall of Fire and Cloudkill, combined later with Incendiary Cloud even though Acid Fog works much better, and then you just sit in the middle of it all under the effects of Energy Immunity Fire, and maybe Acid, and either Stone or Iron Body. Build wise, you will probably go for a Fighter dip for Heavy Armor Proficiency, Tower Shield Profiency, in addition to Fighter Bonus feats being spent on Combat and Improved Combat Expertise. Oh, and you have to pick Still Spell ASAP, and if you care, Auto-Still Spell in the epics if you want to use other Metamagic feats without removing your armor and shield first.

Trying to cast Fireball is a mistake on this server, the bread and butter Wizard spell in D&D is a mistake on this server. Trying to spam Fireballs will get you nowhere, but somehow sitting with Stone Body in the middle of a Cloudkill and a Firewall thanks to your Sword and Board AC -- will. Run around, gather mobs, and watch them die. You can repeat a few times before you even have to worry about resting. But when you try to kill a single enemy mob with Fireballs, you might kill one enemy by depleting your entire spell book. And just to be clear, PvE is a far greater portion of gameplay than PvP ever will be on this server.

So, if this had some 'easy mode' areas East along the River Chiontar, with rest spots, and a spot to hitch a boat going downstream to the bridge, with basically the stock NWN2 mobs, and even if these mobs gave half of the experience of the rest of the mobs of their CR on the server did, at least a Wizard could kill something in PvE with that cast of Fireball and earn some experience points from it.

As for Underdark, you could just great Varalla's Maze where the same number of areas are interconnected to each other, so you can easily get to each area through tunnel leading from one of the others.

And these areas could be without loot chests, so no worries about people doing loot runs, as there areas would just exist for easily defeated enemies so that silly builds based around RP gimmicks would have far easier time to level up and be able to achieve something in one corner of the server.

[Young Werther]

I haven't actually tried this so whatever, but fireballs
1. Rest with blasting spells memorized.
2. Make yourself a shield with a element immune summon or get the AC.
3. Get a good chunk of mobs grouped.
4. Blast, loot, log out and play a different toon.
5. Log back in later when rest timer is done. Repeat.

Yeah you might catch a group for a few minutes then RP going elsewhere to log. .

[DaloLorn]

3. Get a good chunk of mobs grouped.

Not always doable with our dungeon design. I guess you could do it with xvarts or something.

4. Blast, loot, log out and play a different toon.
5. Log back in later when rest timer is done. Repeat.

Yeah you might catch a group for a few minutes then RP going elsewhere to log. .

What a remarkably engaging gameplay loop. I have no idea why I never thought to play my blasters like that.

[gedweyignasia]

Let's try to avoid sarcasm and negativity where possible. Even when intended as friendly kidding, it's not always received that way. Positive language like, "You're absolutely right! That's just how it gets done." usually gets a better response from people.

[Young Werther]

What a remarkably engaging gameplay loop. I have no idea why I never thought to play my blasters like that.

Lmao it's like when I tried looting by placing a bunch of toons by every boss mob I wanted via nexus log-in and killed the bosses on a timer, wait for respawn, kill them again sequentially again for loot... get bored and try it again another day, just hop out of nexus to save points. Chests are on a timer but not bosses! Also it's super boring!

[EasternCheesE]

What a remarkably engaging gameplay loop. I have no idea why I never thought to play my blasters like that.

Lmao it's like when I tried looting by placing a bunch of toons by every boss mob I wanted via nexus log-in and killed the bosses on a timer, wait for respawn, kill them again sequentially again for loot... get bored and try it again another day, just hop out of nexus to save points. Chests are on a timer but not bosses! Also it's super boring!

I'd also like to mention that this kind of things is clearly forbidden by server rules

[DaloLorn]

Let's try to avoid sarcasm and negativity where possible. Even when intended as friendly kidding, it's not always received that way. Positive language like, "You're absolutely right! That's just how it gets done." usually gets a better response from people.

There was very little positivity to be offered, though. I couldn't think of a more boring way to play a character than "log in, burn through spell slots, go play someone else".

Heck, it's even worse than the looting loop of "run through any soloable zones with good loot (like most of the Upperdark)" that seems to generate much of the server's wealth nowadays. At least that one is designed such that you could get some minor RP, or segue into a longer adventure and/or RP session if people tagged along.

[Young Werther]

I'd also like to mention that this kind of things is clearly forbidden by server rules

There was very little positivity to be offered, though. I couldn't think of a more boring way to play a character than "log in, burn through spell slots, go play someone else".

Heck, it's even worse than the looting loop of "run through any soloable zones with good loot (like most of the Upperdark)" that seems to generate much of the server's wealth nowadays. At least that one is designed such that you could get some minor RP, or segue into a longer adventure and/or RP session if people tagged along.

I never leveled a blaster, but it's tempting to try giving it a go for me. If I ever reinstall nwn2 since I got my new PC I might try this method while messing around on other characters. Hey, maybe I'll log in and the RP will take me other directions before/while/after I end a while xvart camp's career.

[YYA]

I haven't actually tried this so whatever, but fireballs
1. Rest with blasting spells memorized.
2. Make yourself a shield with a element immune summon or get the AC.
3. Get a good chunk of mobs grouped.
4. Blast, loot, log out and play a different toon.
5. Log back in later when rest timer is done. Repeat.

Good luck I guess, and when you do try it out, you might noticed the higher the area difficulty, the more likely it is that the mobs only take half damage and now your spell book lies empty and depleted while mobs still surround you.

A lot of the problems with RP gimmicks would vanish if players could go against stock NWN2 mobs.

Heck, it's even worse than the looting loop of "run through any soloable zones with good loot (like most of the Upperdark)" that seems to generate much of the server's wealth nowadays. At least that one is designed such that you could get some minor RP, or segue into a longer adventure and/or RP session if people tagged along.

Why I go to Upperdark? The first caster mobs are found in Oghrann's ruin, CR 25 area. You can just survive with Steadfast and saves, and with sufficient AC of course. I guess that area is in a way closest this server got to stock NWN2 mobs.

[Ghost]

Tested this right now on server north with only two-four people online. No lag. Very interesting! This opens up some interesting possibilities for us as DMs. Although I don't know if this is due to low population or not. So I may need to stress test with higher population at some point.

EDIT: No, it crashed after all. Nevermind...

Update to this!

The crash mentioned was unrelated to the possessing of an NPC.

Just did another test on server south right now with ~30 people online. Got into a fight with 5 or so PCs while I was possessing a warlock demon, blasting spells and stuff.

No lag. No crash. All good!

This makes me excited.

[mrm3ntalist]

Nothing can be done regarding the server's difficulty until the Admins finally implement some guidelines regarding the server mechanics. For example, 4-5 years ago the AC melee character were going for was 50, 50+. Nowadays, with all the PRCs that give AC and immunities left and right, with no restrictions, that number is 60, 60+.

I will use the Dervish and the CoC as an example since it is the most recent. Dervish gets +3 AC but cannot use shields, so it balances in that way. On the other hand, CoC gets the +3AC with no restriction, meaning a heavy armored character with tower shield can get even more AC. The problem in the later build is that evasion could have balanced this build, but nothing prevents a CoC from equipping a light armor. Thats why a medium/heavy armor restriction makes sense for the CoC, since then he has to choose between evasion or +3AC. Add to those builds the thief acrobat with even more AC, knock down and immunity and one can clearly see why we are at this point today.

Once the admins decide to set some guidelines - or even ask the dms, devs, QC to help - then it will be easy to adjust the server's content and balance some classes accordingly so that we can get a server that is fun to play for everyone. So ye, it is on the admins to finally - after so many years - decide what kind of server they want.

[Rhifox]

Tested this right now on server north with only two-four people online. No lag. Very interesting! This opens up some interesting possibilities for us as DMs. Although I don't know if this is due to low population or not. So I may need to stress test with higher population at some point.

EDIT: No, it crashed after all. Nevermind...

Update to this!

The crash mentioned was unrelated to the possessing of an NPC.

Just did another test on server south right now with ~30 people online. Got into a fight with 5 or so PCs while I was possessing a warlock demon, blasting spells and stuff.

No lag. No crash. All good!

This makes me excited.

See, sometimes one just needs to take a fresh look at old problems.

And have a Dae.

[Calen]

Good post and I agree with most of what has been posted on this topic, I often find myself leaning towards a more 'power build/solid build' as it feels unrewarding not doing so. Even with that I run into fun stuff such as in the spirit troll cave, where the boss casts a 38DC epic spell, will save or die.
This server encourages muling,powerbulding,exp leeching and most of all grinding lowbee areas until the server arbitrarily stops you from doing so in order to progress. Starting here fresh with out doing all these OOC actions will end up for an unpleasant solo experience.

Chests

The loot is awful like an Asian grind MMORPG, while you level up you will not find the appropriate gear that is necessary to reach the AC required for upcoming areas. Early on BGTSCC showers you with potions/res scrolls/ +2 AC gear until you start hitting level 14 where the loot shifts back to +1 gear. Once you hit epic levels you'll often find adventuring being a money sink as chests provide you with +1 items or 26 gold and holy water, the loot gets effectively worse while the content requires a high AC and damage.The way I geared my character for epic levels is rerunning lowlevel areas as long as I could so I could buy all the +3 and +4 gear from the epic shops. With my weaker geared characters/rp build ones I just ended up getting carried by the powerbuilders.


Typical mob behavior

The mobs on this server are designed to be as annoying as possible with out much of variation, once you figured out the maps you know which areas are not worth leveling in. You'll often find yourself grinding location A while over leveling it ,just to avoid an unrewarding leveling experience in location B as the exp is worse and the loot is overall terrible either way. Personally I farm wyverns up to 21 and just end up getting the rest of my levels through roleplay/quests and occasionally joining loot runs, though solo play is off limits unless I powerbuild/Mule and approach the content with a meta/ooc mindset.

a few stereotypical BGTSCC mobs

- The dispeller aka moneysink. They spawn out of thin air and instantly spam a dispel on you, this will effectively function as an anti solo/money sink for non caster characters. At one point in the lair of the black dragon there is a devour worm that will just do that and roll over and die, it's been placed there just to function for that.The same goes for some bosses that are made incredibly tough for players just because they will strip every buff you have from the start. This will often lead to having one person run in 'bait dispells' or summon a pet to eat it. Fun fact: Once they target you it will go through walls.

- Death spell spammers aka steadfast or die: For any RP focused build these are annoying, for any powerbuild this combined with the dispeller screams steadfast.
You're going to roll that natural one, in fact I managed to roll two of those back to back on these mobs. Given I can use a wand of death ward though , it's expensive to recast it every mob pack because it gets dispelled yet again.

- 'Da boss' Take the Nashkal mines, most level 18-20 groups will skip the last boss unless some one has a good powerbuild. The moment you enter there you get dispelled/petrified while having to deal with a boss that has no problem hitting a 55AC target. Once you're strong enough to tackle these bosses the whole area before it is turned into a complete joke. I've seen level 30's getting hammered by this boss and we're talking about a non epic area.

- I hope you like DC's mob: The troll in the spirit cave has a DC 38 epic spell, this is just stupidly high and there are more mobs that have a too high DC for the level they are meant to fight.

- bigby aka The green hand of doom . I can run around with a char that has 33+ saves 36str 24 dex and still one bigby is enough to keep my out of order for minutes. Add in the mix the fact that mobs spam dispel and it turns ugly quickly. Even in groups the one that eats the bigby usually ends up doing nothing.

- Random spawn'' No listen check,spot check or anything you just happened to get besieged by 3 mobs.

There is no cleverness in the design of the mobs or variety in having different type of casters with different spell books.
This server heavily favors casters with a mob design such as well.


RP vs powerbuild

This server becomes less RP focused with the day , the RP rules are less enforced or changed so the DM team doesn't have to respond on IC behavior.
RP builds feel even less rewarding at this point as the server content and DM events encourage powerbuilding. The absence of many classes on this server and the 3/20 rule just make it feel even more like a grindy MMORPG than a D&D experience.


Traps

Everywhere and I mean they are ***** everywhere ranging from harmless to 280 fire damage on a saved reflex throw.With the server lag you'll often not even detect them in time and just end up eating them either way. IF the traps aren't on the ground they are in the loot chests and the best of it ,we cannot use epic traps ourselves. Not every area, every chest, every race under the sun should be trapping a cave/lair/swap with traps.
Yeah as a tank or powerbuild you can just blindly run through them but for characters that aren't like that (or do not have a rogue in the party) it's just tedious to RP and to deal with oocly.


Game design


If you start on this server with the thought of not muling and farming lowbee areas for gold you'll have an unpleasant experience.
As it stands now this server feels like it is meant for muling/powerbuilding/loot grinding and tuning a build towards specific content.
How often does a 'Rp build' or a regular build that is not effective until epic levels, ends up just leeching at the wyvern while MR barbarian just plows through it.
That or have a party of people at the frost giants just to realize MR warlock here can pretty much solo it, and you're all there just for show.



The epic fight


When a character is considered 10 or 15 it's easier to design challenging content for them with out making it look inferior IC wise. Even a goblin/bug bear area at level 27 can be threatening IC wise for players. The beauty if this design is that when you whip out that dragon in a DM event, players know it's business.
Killing dragons/balors and liches like it's a day to day activity just feels bland , most here are starting to take it ICly. The moment a DM event shows a dragon or devil it feels like 'meh, killed a 100 of them already.


Changing the difficulty will require to review a lot on this server, ranging from reviewing 3/20 builds,loot design, RP rules etc.
While I would love to see the team tackle this, my experience with this server is that it intentionally leaves bad game design be.