Owl's Insight to P&P equivilent duration

[DaloLorn]

... I think you're quoting the wrong post. The post containing that quote is by a different poster, and a page and a half after the post you quoted.

Anyway, I think the intended meaning was "not an SRD spell", which, while questionably relevant, is still true.

[Kitunenotsume]

It's been most of a week, so I will go ahead and provide my perspective on the discussion points so far addressed:

Regarding Spirit-Shamans:
The spell is available to SS, but as noted in my last post they are not the primary beneficiaries - indeed, as Steve points out, they rely on Wis primarily for spell slot calculations which are not made available if the stat is boosted temporarily after a rest. Thus it is the Druid class that is what I was primarily looking at for any substantiate impact.


Regarding the use of Owl's Insight by Druids:
My reasoning is that, unless I am missing something, two primary circumstances exist:

1. Druid received a number of "nice to have" but ultimately redundant bonuses from Owl's Insight, while other classes become game-breaking.
2. Druid relies upon Owl's Insight to be functional, and merits a review of the class itself as to why it needs a +12 casting stat to perform comparably.

If the bonuses are largely redundant to the Druid class, then it can be reasonably removed without causing disruption to overall balance while eliminating non-druid exploitation of the spell.
If the spell is mandatory for druids, then its removal allows for a hard-look at why druid is underperforming in comparison to the now-depowered overperforming builds.

Discussion in this thread seems to strongly support the first interpretation:

Hidden: show

However, there seems to be an equal reaction that "Druids don't make it OP"

It's more accurate, I think, to say that the spell doesn't noticeably make druids/shamans OP. This is because of two things:
[...]

TL;DR: Druids are probably cited because the spell opens up a number of half-decent druid builds whose gameplay loop doesn't amount to "I buff up, I wildshape, I smash everything."

It’s also a nice boost to spot and listen skills. Both for Druids and (mostly through elixirs) rangers as well. A huge boost if you’re not hitting the soft cap in wisdom.

And while I doubt it does much for Druid’s already sky high will saves it’s a huge boost for others there as well.

As quite a few oomny ones have already said, the "problem" with this spell is not druids using it as intended, but these 30 CL elixirs that we all buy and use on all our characters, which were inexplicably greenlit in development years ago. Owl's insight hadn't been a problem before then.

The other thing this discussion brings up is that there are some elements of #2 - namely that the server has such high save requirements that a +4 DC unattainable by other classes is considered a "reasonable" buff, rather than unparalleled power discrepancy.
However, the exceptional use of a +12 stat bonus remains an unique and tremendous outlier in a server and setting where otherwise a +4 stat is considered substantial.


Regarding Self-Cast/Elixirs:

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Edit: IMO, the Will saves are just another example of why the spell should be limited to self-casting and low-CL elixirs.

With that in mind, if you absolutely must nerf something, nerf the elixir side of the spell, and not the legitimate druid-cast side.

These are actually both the same suggestion, due to how implementation of Master Alchemist Elixirs works.
It is true that the CL of touch-range Elixirs is usually CL 30, unless special exception exists as applies for a number of Cleric and Wizard spells. However, a second blanket limitation is that no Personal-only spell may have an Elixir CL of over 15, even if the minimum CL for items is higher.
This would apply if Owl's Insight were altered to a personal-only spell, limiting the Wisdom bonus to a 'mere' +7 for 105 minutes, but making it fairly trivial to remove from anyone using Elixirs or Scrolls.

What is a splatbook?

A splatbook is usually defined as a Supplemental Rules Book, as opposed to a Core Rulebook. This is relevant primarily because Supplemental books work to expand the selection of rules and single-party character choices in a given direction, and particularly in 3e/3.5 were known for doing so without consideration with other mechanics and implementations from other Supplements. As a result, things like the Locate City Nuke are also technically FR-magic legal (and can encourage setting-illegal perversions like PunPun), but this neither makes them practical nor balanced in a multi-party circumstance as we have in the BGTSCC PW. As such, the implementation and choice of spells that shipped with the base-game may have been valid for a single-player experience, but likely merits revision in a multi-party environment.

[cosmic ray]

To be fair to the other classes, the normal +4 spellcasting stat boost that they get is rubbish. BGtSCC monsters, especially the epic ones, are so massively overpowered and absurdly powerbuilt with regards to certain key traits - and specifically saves are what I'm on about here - that DC-based spellcasters or spells are a joke that people still pursue either for flavour or ignorance of the module's mechanics. The thing with comparing that to Owl's Insight is that mages can mix several prestige classes to boost their DCs (and they still won't be high enough to matter as a level 30 PC against epic enemies, mind you), whereas druid has only two ways to get comparable DCs: cast Owl's Insight and take hierophant (+1 DC by level 6 of that class woohoo!!!!) and lose access to dragon shape (unless dragon shape requirements have been substantially lowered whilst I wasn't looking); or cast Owl's insight and do nothing else (+6 DC boost, 4 above Owl's Wisdom).

Mages and clerics also tend to have better DC spells than druid. The stronger ones that people tend to prefer when druiding are Storm of Vengeance, Finger of Death and Mass Drown. Of these three, Finger is useless against nearly all bosses because they are immune to death magic; Mass Drown stands to make everyone in the area lose 90% HP (useless in pvp, not that any of these things should be balanced primarily around pvp in a non-competitive game, but nice in pve on the rare occasions that it hits; Storm of Vengeance is a very good spell, indeed the best of the trio in a vacuum, although many epic enemies are immune to its damage and effects.

As I said in my other post, Owl's Insight had never been a problem until all our monks (let's be honest, my monk does it and so do all of yours) started converting gp into mana to cast the spell at CL 30.

[Tanlaus]

If the primary issue is DCs then why not change owls insight into a strait DC boost for Druids and Spirit Shamans?

[Steve]

If the primary issue is DCs then why not change owls insight into a strait DC boost for Druids and Spirit Shamans?

Owls Insight is not just DCs, but a great Spot/Listen boost.

The problem has never been Druid. The problem is CL 30 Elixirs of Owls Insight.

[DaloLorn]

Regarding the use of Owl's Insight by Druids:
My reasoning is that, unless I am missing something, two primary circumstances exist:

1. Druid received a number of "nice to have" but ultimately redundant bonuses from Owl's Insight, while other classes become game-breaking.
2. Druid relies upon Owl's Insight to be functional, and merits a review of the class itself as to why it needs a +12 casting stat to perform comparably.

If the bonuses are largely redundant to the Druid class, then it can be reasonably removed without causing disruption to overall balance while eliminating non-druid exploitation of the spell.
If the spell is mandatory for druids, then its removal allows for a hard-look at why druid is underperforming in comparison to the now-depowered overperforming builds.

Discussion in this thread seems to strongly support the first interpretation:

Hidden: show

However, there seems to be an equal reaction that "Druids don't make it OP"

It's more accurate, I think, to say that the spell doesn't noticeably make druids/shamans OP. This is because of two things:
[...]

TL;DR: Druids are probably cited because the spell opens up a number of half-decent druid builds whose gameplay loop doesn't amount to "I buff up, I wildshape, I smash everything."

It’s also a nice boost to spot and listen skills. Both for Druids and (mostly through elixirs) rangers as well. A huge boost if you’re not hitting the soft cap in wisdom.

And while I doubt it does much for Druid’s already sky high will saves it’s a huge boost for others there as well.

As quite a few oomny ones have already said, the "problem" with this spell is not druids using it as intended, but these 30 CL elixirs that we all buy and use on all our characters, which were inexplicably greenlit in development years ago. Owl's insight hadn't been a problem before then.

The other thing this discussion brings up is that there are some elements of #2 - namely that the server has such high save requirements that a +4 DC unattainable by other classes is considered a "reasonable" buff, rather than unparalleled power discrepancy.
However, the exceptional use of a +12 stat bonus remains an unique and tremendous outlier in a server and setting where otherwise a +4 stat is considered substantial.

The reality is probably somewhere in the middle.

1. Your basic level 30 dragon druid gets, as you described them, "nice to have but ultimately redundant" buffs from Owl's Insight. They don't need it, and realistically, it would probably be good if they didn't have it, because getting Will/DC boosts on top of already being a monster-eating dragon might be a little over the top.
2. However, druids choosing not to rely on wildshapes, or somehow incapable of unlocking the various epic shapes, are likely to find that they loosely amount to a spirit shaman with extra restrictions and without all the shaman goodies. The shortcomings of DC druids (and DC casters in general) have been fairly adequately addressed in Cosmic's post, though I'd also like to reiterate that our gameplay is designed in such a way that offensive spellcasting is only vaguely economical in PvP, certain DM events, and boss fights. (Of which DM events are the only place where it's plausible for you to land a DC spell worth a damn.)
   
   The primary cause of all this is that druids rely, first and foremost, on wildshapes. Taking PRCs (even PRCs which otherwise support your class features by offering full spell progression and optional animal companion progression feats, like Hierophant and Harper Priest) weakens your wildshapes, and potentially even locks you out of some or all epic wildshapes. Because of how powerful the epic shapes are, multiclassing into anything weakens you by a margin that usually greatly exceeds the benefits offered by your other classes. Taking a few monk levels for WIS to AC lets you be sort-of tanky in natural form, because if you're maxing your WIS, Owl's Insight allows you to get monk AC comparable to full plate and high-EB shields... but magic aside, your offense still stinks until you wildshape (which removes your monk AC).
   
   I don't really know how to fix this, though, or the extent to which it needs fixing. Giving full wildshape progression to druid PRCs seems like a bad idea (... though I guess all the epic wildshapes are locked behind druid levels, not wildshape progression, so it might even work out okay), and as much as I like the RP behind my own druid/monk, I don't see a lot of sensible ways to offset the loss of OI and keep that a halfway viable multiclass. Somehow, I get the sense that allowing wildshaped druids to get full monk AC would be a lot worse than letting them keep OI, and unlocking Intuitive Strike for druid/monks (... as opposed to monk/druids ) would probably also come with a bunch of disadvantages.

It's a messy thing, however you slice it, and any solution is likely to be just as messy.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Essentially, we have three kinds of druids. Dragon druids, monk/druid combos, and druids that suck at everything outside of some builds that rely on Owl's Insight. That's the reality that we have right now, like it or not. Dragon druids are powerful, yes. I won't try and argue that. But unless a druid is shifted into dragon form, the only saving grace they have is Owl's Insight. Without Owl's Insight the way it works, you will only have two types of druids: Dragon Druids, and druids who can't do anything.

Nerfing Owl's Insight for druids would effectively pigeon-hole druids even further into either all being the same build, or not being viable.

As I've stated before about my druid, if I'm not in Dragon Form, I have to rely on Owl's Insight to even hit anything at all, and even then, it's not much damage, just a good AB. The Legendary shapes are now closer to dragon than they were, but even if they were just as good, it's still just a dragon druid with a reskin. The magical beast shapes don't even come close. Those who know me know that I purposely do not powerbuild, but focus on RP feats (etc) and then try and make as powerful a build as I can within those RP constraints.

A nerf to Owl's Insight would essentially be saying "If you want to play a druid, you have to play it this way", and completely take away any options other than dragon druid. For me personally, if Owl's Insight were nerfed in the way the OP suggested, I'd have to totally rebuild my druid from scratch. And in the process, I'd either be sacrificing a lot of viability outside of Dragon shape, or RP, or both.

[DaloLorn]

JAG put it more bluntly, but he also more succinctly summarized the problem I described. It's a mechanical kludge, but it's currently the only way people are semi-reasonably capable of deviating from the meta of "dragon/epic elemental/legendary animal druid". (Even then, I don't for a moment believe they can measure up to their wildshaping counterparts, just achieve some modest level of competence in their own right.)

Removing that kludge outright (as opposed to reducing its inability to catapult completely unrelated builds to godhood) isn't a bad thing, as such, but it should be akin to the warlock revamp, where an overperforming component (Repelling Blast) was nerfed alongside buffs to underperforming components (the entirety of the CHAlock lineup, as I understand it ).

Removing it without offering an alternative to dragon druids? That's where you start to see resistance, IMO.

[tharnok]

A splatbook is usually defined as a Supplemental Rules Book, as opposed to a Core Rulebook. This is relevant primarily because Supplemental books work to expand the selection of rules and single-party character choices in a given direction, and particularly in 3e/3.5 were known for doing so without consideration with other mechanics and implementations from other Supplements. As a result, things like the Locate City Nuke are also technically FR-magic legal (and can encourage setting-illegal perversions like PunPun), but this neither makes them practical nor balanced in a multi-party circumstance as we have in the BGTSCC PW. As such, the implementation and choice of spells that shipped with the base-game may have been valid for a single-player experience, but likely merits revision in a multi-party environment.

my question regarding splatbook, was ment sarcastic, why use a term like splatbook, insted of just say the proper term, a Supplemental Rules Book for instance.

And i would say Magic of Faerun is is a importan 3.0 supplement book for FR to make a game more FR then just any type of D&D.
And Locate City Nuke first of all do not work raw wise even if people try explain it does, and second if it did no GM in the right mind would alove such a bug og abuse of the rules, so use that as a excample is just (shakes head) and any book can have flaws and mistakes, even core books (just look at PHB2, 3.5, filled with them).

And in Generel the FR suplement books are made to help make your session more FR feel and also convert older systems FR source material. And setting books are a completly diffrent thing compared to any suplement book. Just because there is a D&D suplement book does not meen it fit in to the world like would not use Eberon books in FR setting would you just as a excample.

[GholaMan]

If the primary issue is DCs then why not change owls insight into a strait DC boost for Druids and Spirit Shamans?

This would actually equalize the disparity between SS and Druid DC casters

[Ithilan]

Theres plenty of druid build options that are viable which do not rely on this spell or shapeshifting, but people have been playing shifters for so long they cant think outside the box.

Druid is one of those classes that have a lot of viability from going pure class, but there are plenty of options to not play the stereotype, succesfully. Quite offtopic, i apologise, but when the argument is that druids cant do anything outside those two niches, I am a bit puzzled. I have played 3 different druid builds that neither relied on DC casting or shapeshifting, to high epic levels and they were some of my easiest builds to level.

[renshouj]

Theres plenty of druid build options that are viable which do not rely on this spell or shapeshifting, but people have been playing shifters for so long they cant think outside the box.

Druid is one of those classes that have a lot of viability from going pure class, but there are plenty of options to not play the stereotype, succesfully. Quite offtopic, i apologise, but when the argument is that druids cant do anything outside those two niches, I am a bit puzzled. I have played 3 different druid builds that neither relied on DC casting or shapeshifting, to high epic levels and they were some of my easiest builds to level.

Can you share them? I do fail to see anything other than DC druid and Wildshape druid as viable, and would be glad to be wrong

[Ithilan]

I've send you a pm

[DaloLorn]

Could you CC it to me, too?

[Steve]

Why keep mechanic’s secret?

You can build a Druid melee build, because there are plenty Ability buffs and long lasting weapon buffs like Flaming Sword / Cold Sword. You combine Druid with other High AB PrCs and whack shit.

You can also create a very powerful Summoner, along with a Companion, and sit back while your PCs “pets” take on mobs and rake in the XP.

Though, I’d argue Spirit Shaman is the better choice for the above.