Spell Components and RP

[DaloLorn]

Maybe someone is running a dwarf farm somewhere. Illithids would be perfect for it, considering they're already known for enslaving lots of duergar thralls. Birth rates are also probably higher in a fantasy setting. (Though my roster doesn't seem to have gotten the memo, considering most of my PCs have few or no siblings. )

There's also a necessary element of suspension of disbelief inherent to the operation of any PW whose world wants to pretend at internal consistency (i.e. not Ravenloft): You're not killing thousands and tens of thousands of monsters for every PC in your vault, and by the same token, you are likely not casting hundreds of Abyssal Mights in the lifetimes of those PCs who are willing to use the spell.

[Tantive]

You're also not likely to go do loot runs every day for the same treasures, necessitating to call upon Abyssal Might. Dwarven child Heart logistics considered, you're not likely to cast such a spell allot of times because of supply issues. Morality withstanding.

[Green Monster]

Maybe someone is running a dwarf farm somewhere. Illithids would be perfect for it, considering they're already known for enslaving lots of duergar thralls. Birth rates are also probably higher in a fantasy setting. (Though my roster doesn't seem to have gotten the memo, considering most of my PCs have few or no siblings. )

There's also a necessary element of suspension of disbelief inherent to the operation of any PW whose world wants to pretend at internal consistency (i.e. not Ravenloft): You're not killing thousands and tens of thousands of monsters for every PC in your vault, and by the same token, you are likely not casting hundreds of Abyssal Mights in the lifetimes of those PCs who are willing to use the spell.

Alright, but there are 414 wizard spells and my wizard has every one of them in her spellbook. Doing outside research on all 414 to know what the components are and making a spreadsheet or something because there's no way I will remember them all seems to me to be an awful lot of not-fun work for playing a game that's supposed to be fun, so I'd still appreciate it if people would either

A: keep that info out of other people's RP until it's available in-game

or

B: Send the caster of an objectionable spell component a private tell to let them know what the spell component is and give the option to retcon the casting or not. Just until that info is available in-game. Yes, I am fully aware when my wiz is casting an evil spell, I just don't often know exactly HOW EVIL. There are degrees, and as a TN wizard there are still some lines she wouldn't cross.

So if the team would help me out by making one of those two an actual rule, that'd be awesome and I'd greatly appreciate it.

[Ghost]

A is not going to happen.

B can go both ways. If someone reacts to you casting a specific spell, send them a gentle tell to inform them you didn't know. That said, if the spell is evil, the other person has it fully in their right to react negatively to it regardless of what component it involves. Their reaction has nothing to do with your character's personal perspective on what is acceptable or not.

We will, as mentioned earlier already, add descriptions as we can, but people are absolutely still going to be free to RP what is correct from a lore perspective. No one demands people are 100% informed about lore, but there is an expectation that people are willing to learn and to adapt according to the setting.

Now, this thread is starting to look like it's going around in circles and gaining heat. I warned earlier to step back, accept the lore as presented and move on. Please do.

[Green Monster]

B can go both ways. If someone reacts to you casting a specific spell, send them a gentle tell to inform them you didn't know. That said, if the spell is evil, the other person has it fully in their right to react negatively to it regardless of what component it involves. Their reaction has nothing to do with your character's personal perspective on what is acceptable or not.

Now we're getting into context again. In this particular instance, I had no idea that this person was reacting to a spell. They just popped off being aggro at my char, calling her the old time version of a stupid s l u t, after she made a dark joke. It wasn't until several minutes later that the person sent me a tell letting me know that they were aggro because of the "Abyssal Might VFX" (it wasn't though, it was red Dragonskin).

So you see, I can't send someone a tell letting them know that I didn't know a spell component when I don't even know that the spell component is why their character is being aggro. And that's where an official guideline on that stuff would be super helpful.

[Ghost]

You won't always know why another character is "aggro". You could cast a spell that is evil but has no spell component at all (ie Darkbolt, and a character will be well within their rights to react with hostility if they so choose. It isn't up to you to decide why someone else acts in hostility. To a good aligned character, an evil spell is an evil spell regardless of component.

An official guideline, if you want one, is this:

All spells on BG are considered to have their proper pnp components. All classes are considered to have their proper RP requirements.

[JustAnotherGuy]

As I mentioned, if every time Abyssal Might was cast a dwarven child had to die, there'd be a serious shortage of dwarves considering how many times I've seen it cast and Kraak Helzaak would be killing mages on sight.

The issue is, you have it backwards. It's not "Oh, this spell is used all the time, so we should make it have a lesser cost." It's incumbent upon the players to realize "Oh, this spell has a very high and valuable cost, I should save it and not just use it on a whim."

I can understand a reverence for PnP rules similar to that of holy writ. After all, both were written by bearded middle aged dudes who needed to get out more;

Really don't think we need to be attacking the forerunners of anyone's religion, regardless of our thoughts on those religions.

The circumstances in which we're playing are vastly different from the circumstances for which those rules were designed and it's incumbent (I believe) upon the team to use the PnP rules as guidelines to be adjusted to the current environment. One dead dwarf baby per cast is one thing in a tabletop group that contains exactly 1 mage. It's an entirely different thing on a server with a dozen or more mages. And that's just one example.

The circumstances we are playing a game are different than tabletop, yes. But the circumstances in which our toons live out their lives are the same circumstances that the toons who are created around a tabletop live out their lives (assuming that the DM follows FR lore). Again, it's our duty as players to realize, "Oh, this spell is very rare, with a high cost. I shouldn't use it every dungeon, but only for special occasions."

To use your example, around the tabletop, how often would that wizard cast Abyssal Might if he needed the reagent? (assuming he would be evil enough to do so and could get away with it.) There is a very high chance that he would never cast it, as the cost would be too great. And if he had the reagent, he'd save it for when he absolutely felt he needed it, because it would be hard to get. That's the exact same way it should be in our world on the server.

[zhazz]

Maybe someone is running a dwarf farm somewhere. Illithids would be perfect for it, considering they're already known for enslaving lots of duergar thralls. Birth rates are also probably higher in a fantasy setting. (Though my roster doesn't seem to have gotten the memo, considering most of my PCs have few or no siblings. )

There's also a necessary element of suspension of disbelief inherent to the operation of any PW whose world wants to pretend at internal consistency (i.e. not Ravenloft): You're not killing thousands and tens of thousands of monsters for every PC in your vault, and by the same token, you are likely not casting hundreds of Abyssal Mights in the lifetimes of those PCs who are willing to use the spell.

Alright, but there are 414 wizard spells and my wizard has every one of them in her spellbook. Doing outside research on all 414 to know what the components are

As I mentioned earlier, there's not all that many Good/Evil spells. It would be somewhere between 5 to 20 spells that research is needed for.

It is no different than playing a Cleric of Chauntea, and having to look up the lore on the clergy of Chauntea. While the portfolio and domains do give some hints at what Chauntea is all about, they don't mention anything about rituals, important days of the year, what time of day prayer happens, what the pecking-order is inside their temples, or when clergy of Chauntea might choose (not) to use their magic in aiding the land.

Anyone wanting to play a character, who casts evil spells should realize there is some expectation towards doing the homework on those spells. The polar opposite, paladins, don't just get a free pass either to skimp on homework, as they have to uphold good and order, adhere to the tenets of their deity as well as their personal beliefs and code, and the laws of the land and local code of conduct.


As others have mentioned too, spells aren't intended to be used the way they are in this game. In lore, and even PnP, no spell caster runs around with 25+ active spells, and asks their companions to take a rest every 30 minutes because Lesser Mind Blank ran out. They have a few basic protections on, with only the most powerful spell casters having permanent spells upon their person.

Anyone wanting to have near 100% uptime on a spell requiring a special material component would quickly realize it is unlikely to happen, and only use it sparingly. When they are powerful enough to make a magical effect permanent upon themselves, then the cost of course becomes a non-issue, as it is a single cast. Note that in NWN2 permanent spells last 24 hours, while in PnP they last forever or until dismissed by the caster or dispelled by a more powerful caster. On this server the permanency option has been removed as it doesn't fit into the low-mid magic setting.

[Green Monster]

You won't always know why another character is "aggro". You could cast a spell that is evil but has no spell component at all (ie Darkbolt, and a character will be well within their rights to react with hostility if they so choose. It isn't up to you to decide why someone else acts in hostility. To a good aligned character, an evil spell is an evil spell regardless of component.

An official guideline, if you want one, is this:

All spells on BG are considered to have their proper pnp components. All classes are considered to have their proper RP requirements.

Again, in this case, the context was the aggro char was neutral. Either that or a good char hanging out with two known evil chars in Soubar. And I didn't decide anything. You said that if someone has a problem with a spell component I should shoot them a tell that I didn't know the component. I'm telling you that I didn't know that that was his problem, so I couldn't send any such tell. I didn't even know that his issue was anything to do with any spell. Not till much later. My character was not casting ANY spell at the time. I only found out a lot later that the accuser was reacting to the VFX of the ongoing spell effect on my character.

Sorry, you're giving me advice and I appreciate it, but I'm telling you that this advice is not relevant to the context in which this issue arose.

Everyone keeps talking as though the only context in which a conflict around spells could arise is the extreme examples of a good char reacting to an overtly evil spell (or vice versa), and seem to think that I'm stupid enough not to anticipate such an event. I really do apologize if I've given the impression that I'm a complete imbecile but I assure you that I'm only moderately dumb.

The actual context was between two neutral characters and did not take place while the spell was being cast but instead was based on one character's perception of the ongoing VFX on another, and the offended char did not in any way indicate that the issue was anything to do with a spell. Not IC and not till much later. And if that could happen to me it could happen to someone else.

[sweetlikesplenda]

In RP a wrong assumptions can be made. But, that happens all the time in RL. So, even though a spell might have been misidentified, it is still just part of RP. Likely everyone who has played on any server has had someone spread some wrong information about their PC, it's happened to my PC over the years. But, personally, I try to react to it IC, not through an OOC post or a call for rules to stop someone from RPing how they might act IG and IC(This part may come off as harsh, but it is not meant to be.). If you as the player did not know that a spell required the soul/heart/other vile thing of a Dwarven child, the use that as an opportunity to RP it out that you were not aware that it required such a foul things to perform. This can be done through playing dumb (IC) or maybe convincing them that you were taught differently or even fooled by a mentor when learning magic (IC way of showing the player did not know about the components). ICly when misinformation has been spread about my PC, he has taken to going up to the PC that spread it and discussing it with them to figure out where the rumor started and why. If someone is spreading info about your PC, dont see it as just confrontational and thus no fun. But, confrontation and how can my PC recover from it. Even if, as you mentioned, you were unaware of requirements for the spell, and that it was misidentified. It could end up becoming a good story about your PC recovering from this or even the start of a rivalry that can lead to more RP later.

[DaloLorn]

If you as the player did not know that a spell required the soul/heart/other vile thing of a Dwarven child, the use that as an opportunity to RP it out that you were not aware that it required such a foul things to perform. This can be done through playing dumb (IC) or maybe convincing them that you were taught differently or even fooled by a mentor when learning magic (IC way of showing the player did not know about the components).

... How exactly would this work for a PC who had already cast the spell in the past?

[sweetlikesplenda]

This can be done through playing dumb (IC) or maybe convincing them that you were taught differently or even fooled by a mentor when learning magic (IC way of showing the player did not know about the components).

^^ You quoted a few easy ways to do it. This is not a complete list. Shoot, you could just say "Hey i wave my hands around and speak the words and it happens". Make stuff up for the why. Its a fantasy world with all sorts of crazy going on, especially given we just went through the ToT and wacky stuff was happening all the time, and even now there are still wild and dead and otherwise weird magical anomalies going on in the realms. People will summon undead, and then when spotted by someone, will play like the undead is actually after them, and not just under their control. It's been used as a means to avoid being hunted down for summoning undead. It may sound corny, but, hey, points for effort for the undead summoner.

Point is, there are many ways to RP out someone calling you out for something, even if you did not know at the time. Adaption to the situation. This way, no one's RP is stifled for knowing something others may not. Personally, I have almost no idea what components are used for spells. So, personally, I stick to the actual spell used and if it is considered evil or if my PC would personally have an issue with a spell used.

Otherwise we will have to go in and put in special rules for every aspect of the game that uses anything in lore (This goes for about everything in our server. we use locations from lore, spells we use are from lore, religions and gods, even NPCs). One could say "I did not know this or that as I have not read the books (Source books or other writings) and therefore should not be held to the lore."

[sweetlikesplenda]

This, of course, is going off the idea that we have never needed components in your actual possession to cast arcane spells and the whole play your sheet thing.

Though, now it is seeming a bit unfair to divine casters who need a bunch of diamonds to case resurrection spells.

[Green Monster]

if my PC would personally have an issue with a spell used.

Again you're talking about a good character deciding whether or not to have a problem with an evil spell. That is absolutely the easiest scenario and literally no one needs help understanding it. The reason we need explicit details on what, exactly, is involved in a spell is because most neutral characters will object to some evil acts but not others

[zhazz]

Which no one here is contesting that we will have, eventually. Spell components for at least the Good/Evil spells is being added at some point.

Until then the only course of action is to use what the system currently provides. Which is to make a list of the Good/Evil spells, do a quick Google search to find out what their components are, and note that down — either in a notepad, or in the in-game journal.

It would have taken less time to do that than to continue going in circles about this topic after the initial response from both developers and DMs that spell components are being added, and that lore is to be followed, with actual knowledge of lore outside the game allowed to augment RP, as long as it makes sense for a character to have that knowledge.