Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2023)

[DaloLorn]

Unlocking soooo mannnnyyyyy buuuiiiiillllddddssssss………

Behave, Steve.

Would it be prudent to notify the player of their last chance to not break the rule? I mean the 1 level before level up? So they find out they miscalculated?

That's the plan, yeah. IIRC, EC already implemented a warning for 3b20 while we were debating the switchover to 3b30; I'm just going to reuse that.

Ultimately, though, they'll find out they miscalculated either way. The warning just tells them they miscalculated before a delevel/RCR is absolutely unavoidable. IMO, it would be best to behave as if under 3b20 wherever possible, in terms of chasing PRC prerequisites down before anything else - that way, they only need to remember to take those key levels eventually. (Likewise, squeeze pre-epic feats into pre-epic levels, so that you get them sooner, etc.)

[Anrilor]

So to make clear my understanding (and possibly my fear of how this could be abused), If say I built a 27 Rogue, and wanted hips, and took 1 level of SD, so now I'm at 27+1= 28, the math would say I'm legal as 27+3=30 (legal), but if I took 1st level of SD at say level 29 for hips, so the math would be 28 + 1 = 29 (28 + 3 + 31 illegal) I would be barred from entering the server proper?

My worry is there will be such builds people will develop that say "I won't level past level 27 or 28 because my build will be recognized as illegal after that" or some such gamified system, that will result in way powerful builds that will beat the people at 30 that played by the rules. the difference between a level 20 and a level 30 is fairly large, the power between a level 28 and a level 30 is minimalistic, an epic feat (or two if you pure class) 3 BAB if high bab, and 36 base HP?

If I wait til level 20 to start taking fighter levels in some HiPS rogish fighter weapon master build thing, does that allow them to get more epic feats because they stacked most of their fighter bonus feats in the epic levels? IE is suddenly able to take 8-9 levels of Armor skin or Epic precsion? that other builds would have limited?

I know its a moot point to not argue because the decision has been made, what I am worried about is how the change will be gamified and then Mob levels have to be increased because we go back to some mindset of "well we need to make this content harder, because builds are more powerful now and the end content not challenging. we don't want these people getting all this high powered epic loot, because others don't have it."

I'm fairly certain the build crafters of the server will look for builds that just don't need those last few levels and be strong enough to walk over content how they wish. Their skill is just that good.

[Ghost]

So to make clear my understanding (and possibly my fear of how this could be abused), If say I built a 27 Rogue, and wanted hips, and took 1 level of SD, so now I'm at 27+1= 28, the math would say I'm legal as 27+3=30 (legal), but if I took 1st level of SD at say level 29 for hips, so the math would be 28 + 1 = 29 (28 + 3 + 31 illegal) I would be barred from entering the server proper?

Yes. If you are 22+1+1+1, you will not be able to exit the nexus, even, because there aren't enough levels left to make your build legal. It will detect immediately if you do not have enough levels left to make your build legal.

My worry is there will be such builds people will develop that say "I won't level past level 27 or 28 because my build will be recognized as illegal after that" or some such gamified system, that will result in way powerful builds that will beat the people at 30 that played by the rules. the difference between a level 20 and a level 30 is fairly large, the power between a level 28 and a level 30 is minimalistic, an epic feat (or two if you pure class) 3 BAB if high bab, and 36 base HP?

I don't know what the concern here is? If people stop at 27, they will miss out on three levels, including at least one feat.

If I wait til level 20 to start taking fighter levels in some HiPS rogish fighter weapon master build thing, does that allow them to get more epic feats because they stacked most of their fighter bonus feats in the epic levels? IE is suddenly able to take 8-9 levels of Armor skin or Epic precsion? that other builds would have limited?

Roguish fighter weaponmaster? Weaponmaster is feat heavy even with fighter preepic, and rogue benefits practically nothing from weaponmaster. I don't think there's any concerns here.

Yes, you can put all 10 levels of divine champion in epic levels. That's 5 divine champion feats compared to previously 4 divine champion feats.

I'm fairly certain the build crafters of the server will look for builds that just don't need those last few levels and be strong enough to walk over content how they wish. Their skill is just that good.

We've been thinking about this for years, and there aren't really any builds that gain a lot of power here. It gives a bit of convenience in leveling and opens up some previously unattainable combinations (chiefly with archmage and hierophant because of their spell level 7 requirements), but these are generally RP flavour builds that now are possible. For example, you can finally actually build a Mystic Theurge with hierophant or archmage, which wasn't possible before.

I am for this change personally, and most people who know me, know how much I hate power creep. This isn't that. It's practically purely a convenience thing.

[zhazz]

I am for this change as well. Though I'm also unlikely to abuse it, since I tend to make concept builds, rather than power builds.

That being said, I can definitely see some potential for absolutely disgusting builds that weren't possible before. Such as Fighter 18 / Shadow Dancer 7 / Thief Acrobat 5. This nets Epic Dodge, HIPS, KD Immunity, Improved Knockdown, Improved Evasion, and Slippery Mind. Previously 3 levels of Rogue or Ranger was required to get both Shadow Dancer and Thief Acrobat within the 3by20 rule.

Definitely a build to be on the lookout for in terms of raw power. Because it is absolutely disgusting.

[Arn]

The only change I could see myself making would be to nab an extra Great Smiting feat on a Smite build.

...Speaking of which, is this going to justify free RCRs?

[Ghost]

I am for this change as well. Though I'm also unlikely to abuse it, since I tend to make concept builds, rather than power builds.

That being said, I can definitely see some potential for absolutely disgusting builds that weren't possible before. Such as Fighter 18 / Shadow Dancer 7 / Thief Acrobat 5. This nets Epic Dodge, HIPS, KD Immunity, Improved Knockdown, Improved Evasion, and Slippery Mind. Previously 3 levels of Rogue or Ranger was required to get both Shadow Dancer and Thief Acrobat within the 3by20 rule.

Definitely a build to be on the lookout for in terms of raw power. Because it is absolutely disgusting.

This is more powerful than rogue4/fighter16/shadowdancer5/thief acrobat5? I mean, at least the rogue gets access to full UMD. Weapon Supremacy isn't that great.

Besides, this thing has very low damage, and facing a little bit of DR, it will do practically nothing. At least the rogue variant gets 2d6 SA to back up that otherwise atrociously low damage.

I used to play around with the potential of fighter20/shadowdancer10 or rogue4/fighter16/shadowdancer10 before thief acrobat was ever added (because I'm a huge fan of shadowdancer10 conceptually!). Apart from knockdown immunity, it gets the same things (or can, but actively picking knockdown on a high dex/low str character always seemed like poor prioritisation to me). The damage was always too low to be of any real interest.

The only change I could see myself making would be to nab an extra Great Smiting feat on a Smite build.

...Speaking of which, is this going to justify free RCRs?

No. This change doesn't break or change the efficiency of any current builds in any way, so there won't be free RCRs.

[Steve]

Maybe in the grand scheme of the future of the Server, this change doesn’t matter. But one cannot deny it is an overall buff to the mechanics, for nearly any build combo (but not all). Let me repeat that: it IS a power up for PCs.

If the hope was to make it easier for Hierophant and Archmage build combos, I’d humbly argue THOSE PrCs should have had their Reqs lowered, and 3b20 left alone.

I just looked over my builds for the 3 current PCs I play, and the last 5 I have stopped playing. All but 2 would get a significant power boost by adding 1-2 epic feats, with the new 3b30.

But…I’m not really complaining here. Who doesn’t like more POWER!!!

[Ghost]

If you guys have thought of some already very powerful build that will become even more powerful after this, let us know. We couldn't think of any in 2018 when it was first proposed in QC (but dismissed for other reasons), and though there have been additions now, I don't think these are level dependent.

The purpose for the change isn't archmage and hierophant, but a more user friendly rule. It allows people to progress through the levels in a more narrative way, and it allows people to have some convenience while leveling up.

[Truthiness]

I am for this change as well. Though I'm also unlikely to abuse it, since I tend to make concept builds, rather than power builds.

That being said, I can definitely see some potential for absolutely disgusting builds that weren't possible before. Such as Fighter 18 / Shadow Dancer 7 / Thief Acrobat 5. This nets Epic Dodge, HIPS, KD Immunity, Improved Knockdown, Improved Evasion, and Slippery Mind. Previously 3 levels of Rogue or Ranger was required to get both Shadow Dancer and Thief Acrobat within the 3by20 rule.

Definitely a build to be on the lookout for in terms of raw power. Because it is absolutely disgusting.

This build is already possible at 3b20 because of background skills (taking one with hide allows for you to take SD at 14 and TA at 17). Yet it's not even that powerful of a build. For epic dodge you'd need 25 base dex, KD immunity isn't needed/wanted as much because of kip up from acrobatics (especially with 25+ dex), your knockdowns wouldn't be that great with 25 dex (meaning less str), your damage wouldn't be good... overall, definitely not disgusting at all.

My worry is there will be such builds people will develop that say "I won't level past level 27 or 28 because my build will be recognized as illegal after that" or some such gamified system, that will result in way powerful builds that will beat the people at 30 that played by the rules. the difference between a level 20 and a level 30 is fairly large, the power between a level 28 and a level 30 is minimalistic, an epic feat (or two if you pure class) 3 BAB if high bab, and 36 base HP?

This seems like absolutely such a non-issue. It's stated in the first post exactly why it's not an issue.

Hidden: show

"You must have at least 3 levels in all your classes at level 30. Characters incapable of meeting this requirement are preemptively barred from leaving the Nexus. This is done by summing up your level in each class (or 3, whichever is greater) and checking if the total is greater than 30. Consequently, we are also able to predict 3b30 violations before your character reaches level 30.

For instance, a level 30 character with 28 levels in one class and 2 levels in another class will have a required level total of 28 + 3 = 31, and be illegal. Meanwhile, 27 levels in the first class would result in a legal total of 27 + 3 = 30. In an extreme case, a character with 21 levels in one class and 1 level in three other classes would have a total of 21 + 3 + 3 + 3 = 30, and would remain legal so long as they made sure to take 2 more levels in each of their secondary classes. "

So if you were to stop leveling anywhere from 21-29, that's just a loss of overall stats, so you can do that if you really want to. I guess.



My personal opinion is that this is a great change and one I've been wanting for quite a while. If I'm right on a suspicion, the 3b20 rule had a rather particular avenue in which it could be bypassed, so making it 3b30 just fixes it. It being automated as well will make it so DMs don't have to deal with it like they did before, which is great.

[mrm3ntalist]

I only want 50% permanent concealment pls

[Thin Ice]

- Attune Staff: All mages now receive the Attune Staff feat, which allows them to use their own caster level when using Cast Spell: X from quarterstaffs. This should make spell staffs are much more valuable addition to a mage's loadout. A UMD check must be made to attune a staff that is restricted to other classes. This check is made on top of the baseline UMD needed to use class-restricted items. If the check fails, you cannot attune another staff until the next reset. Paladins, rangers, and warlocks also receive Attune Staff, but paladins and rangers are treated as half their CL (as in, equivalent to their pnp caster levels), while warlocks always have to make the UMD check to attune a staff (as all staffs use spells, not invocations).

Is there going to be any way that gnomes or halflings could partake in this feat, or is intended to only be for a medium or larger size category race?

[Lockonnow]

Can this be Fix a true Archmage use arcane ray but a True Master mind of Archamge and Daggerspell mage infusion the daggers in arcane ray like the warlock do with dagger lock but in this case the Arch daggers do not work as it sould as Daggerlock can it fix it some monster liek 10 monster i have figth give me this **

[Eliasz_Kowalski]

- Classes with cohorts (eg thaumaturge, dreadmaster, and pale master) will be able to name their cohorts.

And here I thought I was imagining things. Knew I saw this somewhere. Was it ever implemented? I can't find a way to rename my cohort so my guess is it wasn't.

[Dolorof]

Great news!
Beside the name change, will the Thaumaturge's summon get any modification in the future? Maybe a special feat to call upon the cohort?

[DaloLorn]

... This never actually happened.