Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

No, but that is a really convincing way to make a sweeping generalization about my intentions, Joleda. Thanks.

First off... maybe you haven't assessed the build, but a 21 Ranger 4 Fighter 5 Frenzied Berserker is far from "very powerful". I do quite good damage against any enemy I take Favored Power Attack for (which may only be 1 or 2, it is a feat starved build). The AC is dismal, the AB is laughable... barely getting above 30 AB on level 30 while in IPA... and there is no defensive capability to be spoken of with the exception of HiPs which would only be usable in outdoor areas and at a very low skill because of the lack of Dexterity and ability to focus on it with the lack of feats.

I want the 21 Ranger quick because, I do tend to get bored with builds. So in that sense, I guess you're right... I get bored. If I go too many levels without getting something neat, I get discouraged, like everyone I'm sure. That is one reason playing Swashbuckler sucks (among other reasons) is that it only gets it's neat feats after 14 and 19 boring levels. I just want PTWF and Bane of Enemies because I've never had either in NWN2 and they're things I want to experience. If I have to take 14 Ranger 3 Fighter 3 FB by level 20, I will probably just get discouraged with the build itself and ultimately never reach level 27 to get the two feats that inspired me to play the build in the first place. If you still don't get it, and you still think I'm just a crazed powergamer, please go away. You don't know what you're talking about...

There is no reason to need to take those levels pre-epic. It's an outdated rule in most cases. It doesn't prevent power building, except for maybe epic level Fighter Bonus feat wise... but that is really just clever building. I guess you like to hate on Intelligence based wizards as well? (yeah, I can make nasty assumptions without thinking too). So that is why I think you need to have 3 levels in all your classes by 30, and not 20.

ThatPirateGuy wrote:Which brings me right back to my point. If we're not worrying about balance, why are we constantly shooting stuff down and tweaking for "balance" reasons? Why worry about power level at all? I'm kind of this mind as well, but by god, if we're going to place limitations on stuff and make other things useless/unreliable for "balances" sake, then do it across the board.

It was possible to make a non-optimal toon in WoW, but it was pretty hard to make a useless one, and each class still had multiple party roles it could fulfill, depending on Spec/Gear, sometimes multiple ones at once, so saying that it was limiting was kind of ridiculous. Mages aren't SUPPOSED to tank in DnD either, and Gish don't exist in WoW... *smirks*

I like balance, just not absolute balance. That makes the game trite. Magic is supposed to be powerful, after all. And what I mean about WoW is not that is limits your build options, but rather that it treats characters as just game mechanics in the hands of players, instead of "real" people with certain skills and abilities. In D&D that does not happen, or at least it is much less pronounced. It's true that a fighter can't cast spells and a mage can't fight properly, but those two examples are extremes. I'm probably not explaining myself properly here, and this is rather off-topic anyway, so I'll just shut up.

Sometimes you need patience to get "to the good stuff"

If its so outdated, how come its used on many servers, and dates back to nwn1. Just because its an old rule, dosnt mean its outdated. And you are still going to have to wait to get the last things, for your build. And how come you wont get much higher then 30 AB, all your classes are High BAB, and your BAB will be 30 at level 30....

Because he will be using TWF. It's -4 if you are using medium weapons and -6 if you are using large weapons with Monkey Grip. With IPA, it will be -10/12 to AB.

Rainbow Prism wrote:Because he will be using TWF. It's -4 if you are using medium weapons and -6 if you are using large weapons with Monkey Grip. With IPA, it will be -10/12 to AB.

he talked about at level 30. There he will have PTWF, i didnt see he said when he used IPA, but his BAB will still be 30, +stats, feat, ench

Do you even know how PTWF works, mute? The penalties stay. Only your number of attacks increase.

Rainbow Prism wrote:Do you even know how PTWF works, mute? The penalties stay. Only your number of attacks increase.

yes, your off hand gets as many attacks as your main hand, and uses the same BAB, and the other things i posted also applies.

Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting
Specifics: You can make as many attacks with your off-hand weapon as with your main hand weapon, using the same base attack bonus. A 21st-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having perfect two-weapon fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

edit for "number crunshing"

BAB 30
feat +1
stat (lets say 22 with item. He should be able to have that) +6
ench +3
IPA -6
medium weapon -2
= 32

mute83 wrote: BAB 30
feat +1
stat (lets say 22 with item. He should be able to have that) +6
ench +3
IPA -6
medium weapon -2
= 32

Lol... does that somehow prove me wrong when I said I'll "barely be getting 30"...

Maybe it is a language barrier, mute. I know English isn't your first language, in case that is causing a discrepancy. There is a subtle difference between "barely" and "nearly". I barely have a 30 AB. Sorry if that was something you knew already.

What's the point to this anyway?

The build sucks but that's not what we're discussing. It's more about the principle of the powerbuild rule. Because if it's removed it can also be used by builds that don't suck. Whether this is good or bad i don't know.

muffinFBSL wrote:

mute83 wrote: BAB 30
feat +1
stat (lets say 22 with item. He should be able to have that) +6
ench +3
IPA -6
medium weapon -2
= 32

Lol... does that somehow prove me wrong when I said I'll "barely be getting 30"...

So you won't be taking any additional weapon attack bonus feats when you reach your epic levels and take all your fighter levels after that point then?

Since the way you have designed this seems to be setting up to do just that, doesn't it?

He's only put in +1 for feats and +3 for enchantment, and you dont HAVE to use IPA, so if you are getting 8 attacks per round at closer to 40 mod. AB, what's the complaint again? This still seems like a power-grab and nothing more. Assume for a second you have enough strength to get a +6 bonus to damage, and use a longsword (my bet is you use something more powerful, but that's just my guess based on what I am seeing here). Your damage will be d8+9 (assuming you don't have weapon specialization or any additional weapon bonuses). That means you will do AT LEAST 10 damage each hit. You can do 80 damage per round if you hit each time, assuming you roll 1's on every damage roll. If you roll average damage, you will do 13 per hit, not 8, so add 45 more damage to that per round. 135 damage per round is pretty darn good, if you ask me, and that is eith making an assumption that you don't do more damage through feats, damage bonuses on your weapons, or spells that friends give you like flame weapon. Oh, and this totally ignores crits, which I suspect you will enhance through either improved crit or keen.

You don't see how this might affect module balance?

As nuthouse said, this isn't about my build sucking, I only brought it up because I was accused of attempting at power play.

But if you want to keep at it. Fine. This build is terrible, and the damage you just mentioned is also terrible. I can only get regular Weapon Focus and regular Weapon Spec with 4 fighter levels, and I am too feat choked to take Improved Crit so stop trying to allude to ways I could have more damage and AB when there really aren't any. You mislead the people that are too lazy to check out what you say.

Also, what are you talking about when you say I don't have to use IPA? You think +6 AB accounts for the -20 damage I take on all 12 attacks that way? If I decide to wield the longsword in two hands I receive +34 damage in IPA. The build is meant to use IPA. If it weren't, I wouldn't be blowing my precious feats on the requirements for FB. And what makes you think 135 damage per round is good? Let's look at a level 30 rogue who dual wields for 10 attacks per round with 15d6 sneak attack and a +3 weapon. That is 10 x 55.5 average damage discluding the base damage from the weapon and any possible Stength or Combat Insight damage. Attacking from stealth, this rogue hits things more easily and deals 2 points of strength damage with each hit... 20 points per round. Yeah... 600 damage and 20 Points of Strength drain with a non-powerbuild pure Rogue. Maybe you should look at the numbers for a FB/WM too...

Accusing you of power play is ridiculous and besides the point.... the point must be what other builds can benefit from it. I mentioned the bard/shadowdancer before and im sure there are other better examples of ways to "exploit" the system if this rule was removed. The consequences? Might get a bit higher power level. Not like a whole lot and it'd make life easier for people like muff to make an otherwise unplayable character playable on the pre epic and early epic levels. That's really all it is.... unless i miss something?

This is not intended to throw fuel onto the fire, but to correct a mistake. The damage output from this build is being severely under-estimated. For the record, I think the rules are pretty clear that you can take extra classes after lvl 20 as long as DMs approve it.

Anyways.

With 21 Ranger levels, you get 5 favored enemies and a +5 damage bonus to each one. With the right selections (e.g. giants and undead), you can cover most encounters on the server with these 5 FE's. With 12 attacks, this translates to +60 per round.

Also, 21 Ranger qualifies you for Bane of Enemies, which again adds +2d6 per strike, or +7 on average. With 12 attacks, this translates to +84 per round.

Now throw in the animal companion bonus (assume it's a bear). The damage is 1d8 +6 per strike, or +10.5 on average. However, both greater magic fang and nature's favor can be cast for an extra +6 dmg and AB, giving a total of +16.5 per strike. Your companion will get 3 strikes, or +49.5 per round.

So even before you add the bonuses from weapon base damage, enchantment, strength, improved power attack, favored power attack (doubles IPA bonus), improved favored enemy, or the fighter and frenzied berserker feats, you are already doing +60 +84 +49.5 = 193.5 per round.

If you add in the other bonuses, this build easily hits over +400 per round without having to rely on sneak attacks. The actual value is likely +500, since the triple combination of 5 Frenzied Berserker, improved power attack, and favored power attack already adds (+10 + 10 = +20) to damage per strike, or 240 per round.

Natures favor in your case is only +3

Rangers are half casters and you get a point per 3 CL.

as i also said, i hadnt seen to begin with, that you would use IPA. But what do you also expect when you are giving yourself a -8 to AB, you are sacrificing AB for damage.

And bane of enemies also gives +2 to AB vs the favored enemies.

And i dont think the rangers pet is that good, or it could just be because i picked the panther