Paladin of Red Knight Code of Conduct discussion.

[Cel'Daren]

Your post about the CMB Code of Conduct

The DM Team on Baldur's Gate doesn't enforce a 'universal paladin code'.

But don't complain if more and more shun you ICly and OOCly for lying and using poison as a Paladin

Sounds like a great RP to go through! That is, in fact, sort of a perk of being such a "snowflake" Paladin, isn't it? Creating such a unique character that provides other characters with new stimuli to further mold them into more complete characters. It's almost like I'm helping you build your characters by having mine around! OOCly shunning me however would be meta-gaming, wouldn't it? Taking your OOC feelings on the matter to avoid RPing with my character so your character doesn't have to deal with the ICly idea of a poison using Paladin. I'd ask you not to do that. Let's keep OOC and IC apart, yes please?

To clarify: the core code is a set of principles. A paladin who calls them guidelines lessens or denies their holy sanctity. He would begin the process of falling. See the last paragraph of my previous post.

You may interpret the principles and form your code from that, but always remember they are the uncompromising heart of your personal code. If they cease being so then you are fallen...

Yes I know. Any Paladin who doesn't stick to his vows isn't a Paladin. My character wouldn't call his vows guidelines. I the player, however, am not a warrior blessed with divine might to go out and smite evil. My language and opinion on the Paladin code are going to be inherently different. My character will follow whatever vows he takes up with all devotion, I the player reserve the right to say whatever I like in regards to that behavior.

"Subdue bad guy", then. Most obvious immediate solution.

Fair enough then, hoist by my own petard in that one I am.

All I was saying that your code is not inherently good. And that blackguard could follow it to the letter, while remaining evil. I also explained why it is not inherently good.

It's not my code! It's what the DMs are enforcing as the core tenets of a Paladin code! It's the baseline one is supposed to build their own code around. The codes may have much more, but they must include that base. Not. My. Code.

If your code is set of "guidelines", then your character is neutral good, not lawful good. Lawful good requires char to obey their code. As a result, paladin would have divided loyalties - obey the code and strive towards good. But what do you do when you need to chose between good and law? That's important part of being paladin.

As I said to DM Ioulaum, me and my character are different. I call them guidelines, my character would call them his life. Please don't think my language from an OOC stand point is going to be the same as my Paladin's. It won't.

You may elevate matter to head dm, if you want.

Why? DM Ioulaum, given the timing of his posts and the carefully constructed manner of them suggests to me that he took a while to come up with them. The fact that no other DM has come out against these posts suggests to me that Ioulaum took the time to post his ideas on the matter to the other DMs, suggesting that they had a talk about this and decided amongst themselves that what DM Ioulaum posted is how the majority of the DM team feels on the matter. Surely the Head DMs would have been part of this process, and since a Head DM hasn't come out against the posts, then they must agree with Ioulaum's post as well. Perhaps a bit assuming on my part, but I've no reason to doubt my logic in this. It's a "he's got it let him get it" scenario. The other DMs haven't stepped in because they agree with what another DM has already posted.

Aside from that, I can say you are free to roll whatever character you want, just don't get upset when it falls by alignment shifting towards chaos or evil, which should happen very quickly if paladins are actually monitored. People kept explaining this stuff long enough, you are not listening. Which means there is no reason to continue explaining.

Yes, you've all been very adamant in your own perceptions of the Paladin class; citing many a rulebook paragraph or two and attempting to tell me that all Paladins are required to follow everything in all those books.

However, DM Ioulaum has come saying what the DMs are enforcing, which does not invalidate what I want to play as a character. It's fine for you to disagree with what I want to play, but it's my right to ignore you over the matter as well. Nobody is wrong here, it's simply a matter of interpretation at this point.

@Everyone

Thank you for discussing this matter with me to the extent that you did while keeping everything civil. I know that Paladin discussions are considered a kind of flame bait in some places and I'm pleasantly surprised we managed to go near 60 posts without a DM having to lock the thread because someone was being flamed. Maybe next thread I should post up some political topi *shot* Okay jokes aside thanks again everyone for the discussion. It's nice to know the community is mature enough to handle topics like these, and I assume it's one of the reasons that this server community has lasted so long.

[Hitman Hard]

I certainly wouldn't acknowledge someone as a Paladin IC if they resort to poison use, and this is coming from a player who didn't play a paladin correctly due to stubbornness and misinterpretation.

[Grimcheese]

Valiant certainly made for an interesting paladin, at least!

My take on it is to ask the question: in a pinch, can I rely on this person to be a champion of good? Can this person put their foot down in the face of overwhelming evil and say "enough is ENOUGH!" and fly in, murderous implement of choice upraised?

I think someone earlier said "the Good die young". It's especially true for paladins since they don't get the option to bow out of fighting evil that he has the power to fight. You can play smart about it in a way that makes the god happy, but no matter their orientation, the god giving you holy superpowers for the purpose of smacking evil in the front, back, sides, etc. won't be too happy seeing you shirk your job.

And no matter what happens in RP, try to see it as character development, not as a failing of the character's concept.

/nickelbecauseinolongerhavetwocents

[mireigi]

You can play a paladin any which way you want to. The question you need to ask yourself is what you want to do with the character you have created. Some actions will make your paladin fall, and you can RP that if you want to. You can even RP those deeds as necessary and to be scrutinized later by a cleric of the same faith, who is capable of casting 8th level spells (the requirement to offer a paladin redemption and absolve sins made in service).

Just remember to keep a detailed record of all your actions, including the reasons behind them, as these will be examined when you are to be judged.

[Hawke]

It sounds like you want to play a man at arms than a paladin.

This is coming from a guy who plays an Orc pure Mage and a mage druid.

You can play how you want, but ICly folks will not see you as a paladin, and basically you will be reaping the rewards as a paladin even though you are playing him as a blackguard.

Have fun in game.

[Cel'Daren]

You can play how you want, but ICly folks will not see you as a paladin

They don't have to. Why would they have to acknowledge my character as a Paladin just because I have some levels of the class on my character sheet? Why would my character need to introduce himself as a Paladin? Currently he just introduces himself as someone who wants to help people, or who doesn't tolerate the undead or fiend-pacted warlocks. Just because you ARE a Paladin doesn't mean you need to go parading that information around.

and basically you will be reaping the rewards as a paladin

The rewards of Paladinhood are what exactly? Lots of hard work to defeat evils wherever you might find them for the entirety of your life? The adoration of those you've saved? Fame? Fortune? Those aren't the rewards of a Paladin, those are the rewards for any good guy determined to put down evil.

even though you are playing him as a blackguard.

Except my character isn't going around doing most things Blackguards are known to do, like sacrificing virgins to fiends, killing babies, promoting the worship of evil deities, opening portals to the fiendish realms, creating undead, tolerating undead, slaughtering entire villages because one of their number pissed me off, desecrating temples of good deities, slaying priests of good deities... and a thousand other things that any evil character would do. He's not even doing things a balanced minded neutral character would do. He's there to promote good and law. Just because he uses deception and poison to do it doesn't invalidate the fact that he's a good guy.

[CptAmyrica]

Why would they have to acknowledge my character as a Paladin just because I have some levels of the class on my character sheet?

The paladin class has much more stringent RP requirements than does, say, a Rogue or a Wizard. Whereas one might have Rogue levels to get lock picking skills, paladin levels represent a strict dedication of morality and faith and are very much the identity of the character who has them.

The rewards of Paladinhood are what exactly?

Divine powers, being impervious to disease, a close connection to your god (and the immeasurable satisfaction of being an instrument of his/her will), a ticket to your god's realm if you've served well until your death.

Just because he uses deception and poison to do it doesn't invalidate the fact that he's a good guy.

It does, actually. Deception, as in telling a lie, is outside of any paladin's oaths as doing so impinges upon personal integrity. The use of poison is both honorless and has the potential to inflict enduring and excessive suffering by its nature, which is evil. The ends don't absolve the means; an assassin who murders the wicked in their sleep in the name of promoting the oppressed is still evil. Tyr, for example, would celebrate the destruction of evil but condemn the dishonest and unjust manner in which the destruction was carried out. If that's not convincing, it should be a red flag that the gods of poison, lies, and murder are all evil.

In the case of paladins of the Red Knight, she is a deity of battle tactics and strategy, not cloak-and-dagger machinations. Her purview is properly preparing the battlefield, intelligent application of forces, anticipating enemy movements, and so forth, not lacing the enemy's bread with poisons so that they die foaming, convulsing deaths the night before the battle. She would look favorably upon a paladin who had kept a force of cavalry hidden and ready to counter an enemy's charge versus the commander who fouled the wells.

[Cel'Daren]

The paladin class has much more stringent RP requirements than does, say, a Rogue or a Wizard. Whereas one might have Rogue levels to get lock picking skills, paladin levels represent a strict dedication of morality and faith and are very much the identity of the character who has them.

Indeed. I still don't need to parade around the fact I'm a Paladin.

Divine powers, being impervious to disease, a close connection to your god (and the immeasurable satisfaction of being an instrument of his/her will), a ticket to your god's realm if you've served well until your death.

Oh, you mean mechanical benefits? Those aren't his rewards, those are the tools their deity gives them in order to fulfill their duty effectively. Other than that what you've listed is just what every divine spellcaster gets. It's not a reward for Paladins, it's a reward for any faithful who does good in the eyes of their deity.

It does, actually. Deception, as in telling a lie, is outside of any paladin's oaths as doing so impinges upon personal integrity. The use of poison is both honorless and has the potential to inflict enduring and excessive suffering by its nature, which is evil. The ends don't absolve the means; an assassin who murders the wicked in their sleep in the name of promoting the oppressed is still evil. Tyr, for example, would celebrate the destruction of evil but condemn the dishonest and unjust manner in which the destruction was carried out. If that's not convincing, it should be a red flag that the gods of poison, lies, and murder are all evil.

The DM team here at BGTSSC do not enforce a universal Paladin code, as has been said earlier in this thread by DM Ioulaum. A Paladin can have a Code of Conduct that does not include tenets against deception or poison, although of course many do. The DM Team also does not enforce Deception and poison as inherently evil or chaotic actions. The acts in and of themselves do not tug at your alignment; the intent behind the actions however might. Thus, a particular Paladin may be well within his rights to out and out lie to the bad guy or coat his weapon in some knockout poison before striking a foe, if it is done with good intent and promotes goodness and law.

In the case of paladins of the Red Knight, she is a deity of battle tactics and strategy, not cloak-and-dagger machinations. Her purview is properly preparing the battlefield, intelligent application of forces, anticipating enemy movements, and so forth, not lacing the enemy's bread with poisons so that they die foaming, convulsing deaths the night before the battle. She would look favorably upon a paladin who had kept a force of cavalry hidden and ready to counter an enemy's charge versus the commander who fouled the wells.

Indeed? Good thing that's not what my character is going to do. Poison use doesn't necessarily mean "use it at every possible situation you can in order to get a leg up on the competition". It can also be used in a sparing fashion as a tool of mercy. Want to capture a bandit camp without any killing or bloodshed? Poison their water supply with something to put them to sleep, then round them up without a single casualty. A man is possessed by some foul spirit and he's trying to take your head off with an axe? Smear his face with some spider poison to sap the strength from his limbs so you can safely exorcise the spirit.

EDIT: Pardon. I looked it up, SCORPION poison is strength draining, not spider poison. My mistake.

While most people seem to jump to conclusions where poisons are concerned, viewing them only in the most negative light, there is more to them than just that one view. Remember, we wouldn't have anti-toxins if scientists didn't thoroughly study toxins in the first place. We wouldn't have medicine if we didn't study poisons. A glass of wine is technically poison under the DnD rules, but if you drink a single glass of red wine with dinner every Friday it actually improves your health, and you can die from water poisoning. Poison is an incredibly broad term, and in my opinion there should be plenty of opportunities to use poison for good.

[DM Golem]

The DM team here at BGTSSC do not enforce a universal Paladin code, as has been said earlier in this thread by DM Ioulaum. A Paladin can have a Code of Conduct that does not include tenets against deception or poison, although of course many do. The DM Team also does not enforce Deception and poison as inherently evil or chaotic actions. The acts in and of themselves do not tug at your alignment; the intent behind the actions however might. Thus, a particular Paladin may be well within his rights to out and out lie to the bad guy or coat his weapon in some knockout poison before striking a foe, if it is done with good intent and promotes goodness and law.

You should bear in mind that DM's posting generally do so with their own opinion only; we are currently reviewing the possibility of guidance on paladin codes. However please do not for this moment take Ioulaumm's post (this was a personal post of his) as in indication that the previous response that the DM team gave you regarding lying and poison has been replaced- when we said they are not compliant with paladin RP.

We are reviewing a collective response.

[NegInfinity]

The rewards of Paladinhood are what exactly? Lots of hard work to defeat evils wherever you might find them for the entirety of your life? The adoration of those you've saved? Fame? Fortune? Those aren't the rewards of a Paladin, those are the rewards for any good guy determined to put down evil.

Magic, auras, smiting and spells. They're granted to you by your deity and are reward for dedication. The moment you mess up, deity takes all those gifts back.

those are the rewards for any good guy determined to put down evil.

It is my belief that it is ultimate destiny of a good character to die in a ditch, be buried in unmarked grave and be forgotten. Ultimate destiny of evil character is to be destroyed by own ambition (and be forgotten). (opinion) Arguably expecting any reward or recongition would make you neutral. (/opinion)
So in the end, there will be no reward. Completing your deed/duty should be reward in itself.

Except my character isn't going around doing most things Blackguards are known to do, like sacrificing virgins to fiends, killing babies, promoting the worship of evil deities, opening portals to the fiendish realms, creating undead, tolerating undead, slaughtering entire villages because one of their number pissed me off, desecrating temples of good deities, slaying priests of good deities...

Please don't misinform people about what blackguards do, alright? Blackguard can be anything.

and a thousand other things that any evil character would do.

And please don't misinform people about evil as well?

A society built by heartless tyrant may be indistinguishable from good aligned society, as long as tyrant is smart and subtle about his ways. Well, it might actually be more prosperous and efficient.

Want to capture a bandit camp without any killing or bloodshed? Poison their water supply with something to put them to sleep, then round them up without a single casualty. A man is possessed by some foul spirit and he's trying to take your head off with an axe? Smear his face with some spider poison to sap the strength from his limbs so you can safely exorcise the spirit.

Why do you concentrate on ways to use point so much instead of searching for a ways to solve situation? "Man is possessed by foul spirit".... you know, you could give him a bear hug using your awesome strength and pin him down using your awesomely heavy fullplate. Possession is separate complex topic and it is possible that your poison simply will have no effect. How about using scroll of banishment which you already have prepared being paladin of red knight?
And well poisoning? How do you know it isn't connected to some other water source (nearby village, for example) via ground water?

In the case of paladins of the Red Knight, she is a deity of battle tactics and strategy, not cloak-and-dagger machinations. Her purview is properly preparing the battlefield, intelligent application of forces, anticipating enemy movements, and so forth, not lacing the enemy's bread with poisons so that they die foaming, convulsing deaths the night before the battle. She would look favorably upon a paladin who had kept a force of cavalry hidden and ready to counter an enemy's charge versus the commander who fouled the wells.

Indeed? Good thing that's not what my character is going to do. Poison use doesn't necessarily mean "use it at every possible situation you can in order to get a leg up on the competition". It can also be used in a sparing fashion as a tool of mercy.

Actually he has a point. There are more suitable deities for skullduggery. Let's see... Gargauth, Mask, Talona come to mind. With Red Knight as patron, I'd expect your paladin to be master strategist and maybe scholarly type, not a backstabbing rogue.

[CptAmyrica]

Indeed. I still don't need to parade around the fact I'm a Paladin.

It has a way of coming up.

Oh, you mean mechanical benefits? Those aren't his rewards, those are the tools their deity gives them in order to fulfill their duty effectively.

The rewards are the tools are the rewards.

Other than that what you've listed is just what every divine spellcaster gets. It's not a reward for Paladins, it's a reward for any faithful who does good in the eyes of their deity.

Only in the broadest interpretation of "divine powers." Claiming all powers are the same and awarded under the same context is false.

The DM Team also does not enforce Deception and poison as inherently evil or chaotic actions.

Yet. We can hope that those actions being held as evil and chaotic by the Realms lore at large and that the gods of those activities are quite evil will inform their future rulings on the subject.

Thus, a particular Paladin may be well within his rights to out and out lie to the bad guy or coat his weapon in some knockout poison before striking a foe, if it is done with good intent and promotes goodness and law.

The use of the sedative doesn't promote goodness; it simply enables subduing a foe. The means are as much indicative of what's being promoted in an action as is the outcome.

Want to capture a bandit camp without any killing or bloodshed? Poison their water supply with something to put them to sleep, then round them up without a single casualty.

That's a clever but unacceptable plan for a paladin. Poison is indiscriminate in its nature; you don't know who might drink the water or in what quantity. It's an incomprehensible risk for someone whose goal is to punish the deserving and protect the benign.

While most people seem to jump to conclusions where poisons are concerned, viewing them only in the most negative light, there is more to them than just that one view. Remember, we wouldn't have anti-toxins if scientists didn't thoroughly study toxins in the first place. We wouldn't have medicine if we didn't study poisons. A glass of wine is technically poison under the DnD rules, but if you drink a single glass of red wine with dinner every Friday it actually improves your health, and you can die from water poisoning. Poison is an incredibly broad term, and in my opinion there should be plenty of opportunities to use poison for good.

How we identify poisons in the real world and in the Forgotten Realms setting is clear; this is a false equivocation. "Using poison for good" is not a possibility, either, as the means must align with the ends for the act to be good. For example, here's something a paladin would never do:

You're tracking two well-known murderers and get the jump on them. You put one into a half-nelson and hold a knife to his throat and tell the other that if he doesn't surrender, you'll kill his friend.

Why wouldn't a paladin do this?

1. The two targets surrender. All is well.
2. The held target struggles and escapes and starts a fight; the paladin is now disadvantaged, grappling with one target while the other closes for the kill.
3. The free target refuses to surrender, meaning the paladin must either prove himself false or murder the defenseless, which is an evil act no matter the alignment of the murdered.

A paladin would not execute a subdued foe, and neither would he risk his honor by using said foe's life as bait against another. The goal of winning against evil entities is not in and of itself good.

A paladin's job is not to do good by any means necessary. That attitude is often what causes a given paladin to fall from grace. Rather, one of the difficulties in playing a paladin is doing good exclusively through good means (which means not lying, not using poisons, for starters). If you're not holding yourself to that standard, you're not really playing a paladin.

[Cel'Daren]

Magic, auras, smiting and spells. They're granted to you by your deity and are reward for dedication. The moment you mess up, deity takes all those gifts back.

Huh. Weird. I thought rewards were something you got to keep. What you describe sounds more like tools you're being given to do a job for someone; and if you're not doing the job right they take the tools back. A reward or gift is something that once given away you don't get back or ever expect to. At least that's my interpretation of the word.

It is my belief that it is ultimate destiny of a good character to die in a ditch, be buried in unmarked grave and be forgotten. Ultimate destiny of evil character is to be destroyed by own ambition (and be forgotten). (opinion) Arguably expecting any reward or recongition would make you neutral. (/opinion)
So in the end, there will be no reward. Completing your deed/duty should be reward in itself.

I'm not sure how this relates to the topic at hand. Who said anything about anyone expecting a reward?

Please don't misinform people about what blackguards do, alright? Blackguard can be anything.

If a Blackguard can do those things, and a Paladin cannot (because they cease to be a Paladin at that point; we're all agreed on baby killings I think) then, it's not misleading to say that killing babies is a thing that Blackguards do as opposed to a Paladin.

And please don't misinform people about evil as well?

See above about baby killings, replace "Paladins" with good people, and "Blackguards" with evil people.

A society built by heartless tyrant may be indistinguishable from good aligned society, as long as tyrant is smart and subtle about his ways. Well, it might actually be more prosperous and efficient.

If a heartless tyrant manages to make a society "indistinguishable" from a good society, then he made a good society. The fact the guy running the government might be a jerk doesn't change the fact that his citizens are experiencing a culture expected from a "good" society. I don't understand what you're saying here.

Why do you concentrate on ways to use poison so much instead of searching for a ways to solve situation? "Man is possessed by foul spirit".... you know, you could give him a bear hug using your awesome strength and pin him down using your awesomely heavy fullplate. Possession is separate complex topic and it is possible that your poison simply will have no effect. How about using scroll of banishment which you already have prepared being paladin of red knight? And well poisoning? How do you know it isn't connected to some other water source (nearby village, for example) via ground water?

*just facepalms* Because that's the topic? People are saying poison use and deception are either inherently evil/chaotic or just not a thing Paladins can do, so I'm defending the idea that deception and poison use can be a great tool for good and law in the hands of a Paladin. Yes, of course there's a thousand other things I can do as a Paladin to potentially solve a problem. My point here is to say that Deception and Poison Use should also be viable solutions to problems, something that a certain few Paladins might deem to have in their arsenal to be used when appropriate.

Actually he has a point. There are more suitable deities for skullduggery. Let's see... Gargauth, Mask, Talona come to mind. With Red Knight as patron, I'd expect your paladin to be master strategist and maybe scholarly type, not a backstabbing rogue.

As I've told you before; enjoy your interpretation of a Paladin. In addition; enjoy your interpretation of a follower of the Red Knight. It's not my interpretation. Funny thing though, that is how I play my character. A strategist and a little bit of a scholar... who knows your basic vital spots to shove a weapon to deal more damage (Sneak Attacks), who has trained to keep an enemy guessing as to where he is, what he's doing, and why, (Hide, Move Silently, Bluff), and who knows that a knockout poison on a weapon can be a great way to keep some misguided lizardman from dying on his blade as he passes through to deal with the evil Batiri in the Cloakwood without too much hassle.

It has a way of coming up.

That doesn't invalidate my point.

The rewards are the tools are the rewards.

I would think existing on Mount Olympus for eternity after a lifetime of mortal service would be a Paladin's reward, not the tools they're given to do their jobs.

Claiming all powers are the same and awarded under the same context is false.

I didn't claim all powers are the same. I claimed that the favor of their deity and eternity with their deity in the afterlife is their reward, which is the reward for any faithful who does good in the eyes of their deity.

Yet. We can hope that those actions being held as evil and chaotic by the Realms lore at large and that the gods of those activities are quite evil will inform their future rulings on the subject.

I wholeheartedly oppose that hope on the grounds that it would limit roleplay possibilities of every good aligned rogue, assassin, and sneak on the server. Yes I said Good aligned Assassin. Apparently they're a thing here. Sort of why I came up with a poison using Paladin in the first place.

The use of the sedative doesn't promote goodness; it simply enables subduing a foe. The means are as much indicative of what's being promoted in an action as is the outcome.

To counter you, "the use of the sedative doesn't promote evil; it simply enables subduing a foe" is an equally valid sentence. If knocking someone out with a sleeping poison then tying them up sounds more evil than simply killing them... I have no words left to speak to you.

That's a clever but unacceptable plan for a paladin. Poison is indiscriminate in its nature; you don't know who might drink the water or in what quantity. It's an incomprehensible risk for someone whose goal is to punish the deserving and protect the benign.

You just went and immediately assumed the bandits were using a lake or spring for their water supply didn't you? Why couldn't I poison their water skins instead? Their rain collection barrels? Their ale steins?

Also, let's assume they drink the poison in enough of a dose to simply kill them. It's a much less painful and agonizing way to die then having a sword take off your arm then bleed out. In fact you killed them in the absolute least painful way possible by a mortal; you've caused less suffering than if you had cut their head from their shoulders in a single swing. How again is this evil?

How we identify poisons in the real world and in the Forgotten Realms setting is clear; this is a false equivocation. "Using poison for good" is not a possibility, either, as the means must align with the ends for the act to be good. For example, here's something a paladin would never do:

You keep positing that poison is evil, yet you've not explained to me why poison is evil. Either explain to me why you think poison is evil, or don't expect me to ever agree with you that poison is indeed evil.

Also, I'd like to point you at the Couatl, a Lawful Good being that has poison as one of it's special abilities. If poison is evil, why would a Lawful Good being have it?

[NegInfinity]

Huh. Weird. I thought rewards were something you got to keep.

There is no such reward you can "keep", as far as I know. All of them can be taken from you.

What you describe sounds more like tools you're being given to do a job for someone;

Erm... not quite. You see, after years of training, deity recognized you as being worthy to be granted power. Fighter, even 30 level fighter won't get any of this. Because he is not worthy. You, however, are worthy of being granted those powers. At level 1.

If a Blackguard can do those things, and a Paladin cannot (because they cease to be a Paladin at that point; we're all agreed on baby killings I think) then, it's not misleading to say that killing babies is a thing that Blackguards do as opposed to a Paladin.

Disagree. Paladin can do any of this. Once. As can "good aligned" people. Blackguard can also fall for something of this kind if such acts go against his contractor's will/dogma.

If a heartless tyrant manages to make a society "indistinguishable" from a good society, then he made a good society.

No. The whole thing can be made purely for the sake of making him rich. You see.... it generally better idea to keep people happy and make them respect and/or fear instead of ruling them with iron fist under military law. So a selfish tyrant that is ultimately evil at heart may indeed bring about prosperous country... because he decided to chose the most efficient methods.

The fact the guy running the government might be a jerk doesn't change the fact that his citizens are experiencing a culture expected from a "good" society. I don't understand what you're saying here.

I'm saying that evil can be subtle and is not necesarilly big guy with horns and glowing eyes sitting on thrown made out of bones of innocents. Intent matters.
Good ruler: "I'll build country where everybody is happy!"
Non-good ruler: "I'll build country that'll make me rich!"
They may end up with identical results, by the way.

*just facepalms* Because that's the topic?

The topic is "what is the right way to be paladin". More or less.
You, however, keep trying to turn it into "how can I solve every situation through poison use and backstabbing?".

While this is indeed an interesting subject, it doesn't seem to be quite the same thing as "the right way to be paladin".

[mireigi]

How we identify poisons in the real world and in the Forgotten Realms setting is clear; this is a false equivocation. "Using poison for good" is not a possibility, either, as the means must align with the ends for the act to be good. For example, here's something a paladin would never do:

You keep positing that poison is evil, yet you've not explained to me why poison is evil. Either explain to me why you think poison is evil, or don't expect me to ever agree with you that poison is indeed evil.

Also, I'd like to point you at the Couatl, a Lawful Good being that has poison as one of it's special abilities. If poison is evil, why would a Lawful Good being have it?

I'll answer on this part only, based on my own views and thoughts. The rest seems like a back and fourth between two players who doesn't agree, rather than an open discussion.

Poisons
Poisons are not evil, neither are they good. They are neutral. Poisons are substances that have an adverse effect on whomever they come into contact with. While some adverse effects will kill those they come into contact with, others will produce a milder effect that can be used for helpful purposes. To understand this sentiment, we have to look at substances that mimic the effects of poisons.

Alcohol is a substance that mimics poison. Its effects varies from person to person, from how quickly the effects are felt, how much is required for an effect to show, duration of the intoxication, how much consitutes a lethal dose, and how fast it leaves the system.

Another substance that mimics poison are anesthetics and painkillers. Both produce an effect in the parts of your brain that register pain, either reducing your sensitivity to pain or removing your ability to feel it at all. There are multiple variants, with some knocking you unconcious while others allow you to stay awake.

A third substance, are sleeping agents in some form or the other. These are markedly different from anesthetics and painkillers in that they do not remove your ability to experience pain, though some will put you into a deep state of sleep where you do not react to the pain despite feeling it.

Finally we have what most people understand as poison. A substance so potent that it can only cause serious pain and injury, likely with death as the final result after minutes, hours, or even days of agony. One such is scorpion poison.

You might ask yourself why the first three substances are considered poisons. The answer is simple. All the substances, however which way they are manufactured today, initially began as a distillate derived from poisonous plants or venomous animals, diluted through several processes to produce the desired effect.

So how does this relate to good and evil? That answer is simple as well. It depends solely upon what the poisons do and in which context they are used.

Is it evil to use a sleeping poison on someone who is injured, to stop them from trashing about and bringing further injury to themselves while you carry them to a doctor to be patched up?
No, such isn't evil.

However, if you use a sleeping poison on someone, regardless of their physical and mental state, for the purpose of capturing them without allowing them a chance to resist, then we entering a grey area. Take it one step further, changing the capturing to kidnapping and you're using a poison for evil.


In summary, poisons are neither good nor evil. It isn't until the intent of use is revealed that we can attribute a good or evil property to the act of using poisons, but the poisons themselves will always remain neutral.

Couatl
To answer the second part, about Couatl using poisons despite being Lawful Good, I can only point to the above and surmise that the poisons used are never the kind that cause pain or death, but are rather the kind that will change a situation to one with less suffering, including that of putting enemies to sleep by nicking them with a poisoned weapon, rather than gutting them with a blade; as well as for medicinal and/or healing purposes.

How it relates to paladins
Paladins are honorable characters. Regardless of the threat they face, they will always seek to end any hostilities with as little bloodshed as possible, and without relying on dirty tricks to win the battle.

A paladin who use poisons in battle is not fighting honorably, as he is not relying solely on his own skill and prowess with a blade, which is what honorable combat is all about - a test of skill to determine who was the better trained. This is of course a romanticized view of combat, heavily inspired by duels fought among knights to prove their capabilities and valor.

Samurai warriors of the earliest dynasties embodied honorable combat and took it to heights that even european knights could never reach. They would always fight one-on-one, initiating the fight by introducing themselves and bowing to their enemy, even in the middle of war. No one were allowed to interfere in a battle fought between two samurai, as doing so would put a blemish on their honor. A samurai who lost his honor would lose his station and the respect of his peers, often comitting honorable suicide (seppuku) rather than living with the shame of lost honor. Any attempts to alter the outcome of the battle that did not involve fighting with their sword, and their sword alone, would also constitute a loss of honor.

While paladins are not beholden to the same strict rules of honorable combat that early samurai where, there are several parallels at play. The two primary exceptions to the way of the samurai when regarding paladins, are those of fighting alone against an enemy, which may be personal vow, and comitting honorable suicide, something a paladin would never do.

Does this mean that paladin can never use poisons?
No, a paladin can use poison to aid the transport of a wounded who is trashing about. Similarly, as with paladins who are also healers and surgeons, they may use poisons that act as an anaesthetic.

When it comes to combat, however, a paladin can never use poisons to win the battle, for it is not honorable to use anything but your own skill and prowess with a blade in combat.

There is one grey area for combat poisons and paladins, however, and that is when a defeated foe attempts to end his own life by imbibing a poison. In such a case, a paladin can use a sleeping poison or similar substance to prevent his foe from comitting suicide. As with Christianity, most gods in D&D does not take kindly to suicide, and as such the paladin is sparing his foe from a horrid fate in the afterlife. Note that by this time the combat have likely ended already and the paladin is no longer seeking to change the outcome of battle, but is in fact preserving life.

[Hawke]

Magic, auras, smiting and spells. They're granted to you by your deity and are reward for dedication. The moment you mess up, deity takes all those gifts back.

Huh. Weird. I thought rewards were something you got to keep. What you describe sounds more like tools you're being given to do a job for someone; and if you're not doing the job right they take the tools back. A reward or gift is something that once given away you don't get back or ever expect to. At least that's my interpretation of the word.

No.

Here is the deal with Paladins (not conducive with NWN2 engine mechanics).

If you stop being Paladiny (yes that is a word), your god takes your powers. good game. This means if you were a level 20 Paladin, you turn into a Level 20 Fighter WITHOUT all the extra feats the Fighter gets up to level 20.

And the Powers a Paladin gets? Come on...

Lay on Hands- Decent uninterruptible heal.
Divine Grace- Super bonus to all saves with charisma bonus
Aura of Courage- Fear immunity for self and bonus to saves for fear with party
Divine Health- No more disease
Turn Undead- Insta gib undead
Smite Evil- We all know this is very nice
Remove Disease- Not only are you immune, but you can cure it in others


I am not sure on BGTSCC if Paladins get Kaedrins Spirits... but if so, another added bonus. Plus full BAB, heavy armor and heavy shields, plus Martial weapons AND they get divine spells.

There is no need to be "cute" about how much power paladins and blackguards have. Even a small 3 level dip can enable some serious builds to be defensively crazy cakes.


So when the only real requirement for that much buffness is RPing the good guy... I think it is not asking for a lot. But hey, that is MY opinion.