Request Half Orc Love

[tankteddy]

Here is a simple though, if giving half orc a bonus 33 skill point, just like you did for Half elf/drow, makes people want to play the race more why is this a bad thing?

Honestly the more half orc then the more RP of hate or fear can be RP as it should be. Instead of people making Favored souls or Paladins and knights that are a MONSTER or half monster race. I have been there with Dah I walk up to people and they just stand there like

"Hi big guy want to smash smash some monsters. Maybe kill some orcs?" No as a half orc raised by orcs if I was in the middle of the woods and you asked me that I would cut your head clean off. Granted it states in half orc lore SOME are more human like and wish to become less like their orc bothers. Typically half orc with said mind set are born in human lands and raised by human.

Why half orc rangers don't work well is you typically invest in hide, move silently, spot, listen, survival, consentration, a RP skill like intimidate. Tumble maybe 13-15 ranks in UMD more if you go assassin. That's almost 9 skills even if you cut out some of them with a -2 INT you are looking at ((with out increase your INT)) 4 skill points per level or investing 6 Stat points to get a 10 in INT. Oh and you want to cast your ranger spells? Better up your Wis to 12-14 cause your chances as a new player to find a +3-4 wisdom item are low. Then you need Dex Con Str so you can carry all though healing kits cause not everyone can afford to dump gold on potions of heal. Oh you want to save money on kits and increase your heal skill? Time to increase you INT more or drop another skill.

I'm going to stop with my rant now. Give half orc the same love that half elves get. Human still gets that extra feat that can make a build and gives them No XP penalties for going 4 levels fighter as Half orc would.

Orcs are fine the way they are if anything give them skill focus intimidate for free that's about most I would do.

[mrm3ntalist]

Why half orc rangers don't work well is you typically invest in hide, move silently, spot, listen, survival, consentration, a RP skill like intimidate. Tumble maybe 13-15 ranks in UMD more if you go assassin. That's almost 9 skills even if you cut out some of them with a -2 INT you are looking at ((with out increase your INT)) 4 skill points per level or investing 6 Stat points to get a 10 in INT. Oh and you want to cast your ranger spells? Better up your Wis to 12-14 cause your chances as a new player to find a +3-4 wisdom item are low. Then you need Dex Con Str so you can carry all though healing kits cause not everyone can afford to dump gold on potions of heal. Oh you want to save money on kits and increase your heal skill? Time to increase you INT more or drop another skill.

I'm going to stop with my rant now. Give half orc the same love that half elves get. Human still gets that extra feat that can make a build and gives them No XP penalties for going 4 levels fighter as Half orc would.

I think you are mistaken. Wood elves make - lets say - very good rangers and cover most skills needed. Guess what? They as well have -2 on intelligence... Now half-orcs can make even better rangers, especially STR ones.

Unless someone gives me an example of why half-orcs suck, I dont see why they will need a buff? Yes some classes will be subpar on half-orcs, but that is the same for every race ( halfing paladin, elven tank, Earth genasi wizard ).

[chad878262]

How about water genesai, well any class...that race is awful...

Half orcs got bonus to CON and the blooded feat, half elves got skilled and elven weapon proficiency...Both got buffed.

Frankly I lean against buffing a monster race because, thinking about it I really don't want folks to pick the race for "power build" reasons...then we just end up with more "good" friendly half orcs running around. All due respect to Arkaine and others that play this rp, but if we have dozens of half orcs running around holding bake sales and one Dah I do not see that as good for the server.

And by the way I also agree there is nothing wrong with or underpowered being a half orc. They are good for certain classes (pure strength ranger being one).

Edit:

Here is a pure half orc ranger, then a pure wood elf ranger. the half orc has AC two worse (-1 from dex 14 and -1 due to can't take two weapon defense), but instead has steadfast determination as a 'holder' feat, insert anything else you want here... AC will still be fine and skills are exact same.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?235683 <---half orc

http://nwn2db.com/build/?221686 <--- Wood elf

This is, again, just to reiterate that half-orcs are not a 'bad' race to be in regards to their respective power. are they as good as humans? No, but most races aren't. They are right on par with others though. As a side note taking 4 levels of cavestalker would not be a bad thing and with practiced spell caster you lose nothing... wood elf can't take that PRC.

[ShortRedandLoud]

Frankly I lean against buffing a monster race because...

Half orcs aren't a monster race, tho. Treated badly, perhaps, but not on the level of goblins or ogres.

Also there's as many half orcs (3%) in the Western Heartlands as there are gnomes (2%) and dwarves (1%) combined. And the Western Heartlands is a major region for gnomes! In 3e, anyways.

[Thorsson]

There should be 4% Half Elves, as many as Half Orcs and Dwarves combined...

[chad878262]

Frankly I lean against buffing a monster race because...

Half orcs aren't a monster race, tho. Treated badly, perhaps, but not on the level of goblins or ogres.

Also there's as many half orcs (3%) in the Western Heartlands as there are gnomes (2%) and dwarves (1%) combined. And the Western Heartlands is a major region for gnomes! In 3e, anyways.

Fair enough, but the rest of my post still stands. They can be built in to a perfectly fine Ranger that would do well in pve. R26 / Cavestalker 4 would probably be even better.

[Hawke]

Frankly I lean against buffing a monster race because...

Half orcs aren't a monster race, tho. Treated badly, perhaps, but not on the level of goblins or ogres.

Also there's as many half orcs (3%) in the Western Heartlands as there are gnomes (2%) and dwarves (1%) combined. And the Western Heartlands is a major region for gnomes! In 3e, anyways.

Fair enough, but the rest of my post still stands. They can be built in to a perfectly fine Ranger that would do well in pve. R26 / Cavestalker 4 would probably be even better.

And this is why things dont change. Can any race do the same job as another? Yes. I have a Gray Orc Archmage for crying out loud. How inefficient is that?

But it isn't about how to optimize. What I have been saying is bring the Half Orc up to the other Half race on the server.

(I know Water Genasi need some serious love but this post is about the Half Orcs heh)

Think about what was said. If we took away ALL racial bonuses and negatives then they would all be exactly the same. I didn't suggest that. I stated that they need more to bring their "power level" in line with Half Elves. When I say power level, I dont mean make them invincible.

The only reason to take Half Orc is the race to RP, because the bonuses you get do not make up for taking on that RP hardship. Half-Elf, Elves, and even the Halflings (with more bonuses than my character sheet can keep up with) have a lot going for them. Humans have skilled and bonus feat.

If the Half Human races are supposed to combine the best of each race, then let's do it that way. I dont see half-elves getting -2 con from their elven side, now do we?

[chad878262]

I just don't get this. Half orc is better at melee classes than half elf. How is it less powerful? Half elf, even with the bonus on this server of skilled and elven weapon proficiency is still not a good as being human or full elf. I guess I just disagree that they need love... The reason to pick any race should be at the players desire, be it rp out power building. Even air genasi is a lesser version of tiefling, but there are still a few of them. In any case, just my opinion, but I don't see half orc as being to underwhelming compared to other races. I showed that by comparing a half orc ranger to a wood elf ranger, what is it you think half orcs should be better at?

[Hawke]

I already said, it isn't about being better, it's about being on par.

[matelener]

Let's compare two min maxed fighters.

H-orc: 20 STR / 13 DEX / 14 CON / 12 INT / 8 WIS / 6 CHA

Human: 18 STR / 14 DEX / 14 CON / 12 INT / 8 WIS / 8 CHA

So, the half-orc gets an advantage of an equivalent to two epic feats (Great STR I and II) while the human gets one more pre-epic feat, one more skill point per level and no specified favored class.

Imho, +2 STR is more valuable.

On the other hand, genasi need some attention. (The arguement that they should suck to dissuade players from playing them would be fine if tieflings and aasimars got nerfed to their level)

[tankteddy]

Point is not ranger, Dah was a STR based barb Frenzy fighter. With all +4ac gear he had 33AC at 21 and 39 with shield, even like this his power was extremely low and he would die to even xvarts or Dire bears. Call it bad building everything in his build was fine but due to lack of skills and other such he would make No money as he spent more on healing kits then he made. He died of a total of 146 times before I finally deleted him because 3 things. One he would never fit the true RP of his back story unless hunter PRC came out ((someone suggested a orc only PRC that's the closest))
Two he didn't have the AC or hips or spells to survive being way laid by high level bandits walking to nashkel. And didn't have the AB to hit anything often enough to deal heavy damage to kill target before he dies.
Three going into rage frenzy gave him the power to kill Xvarts and such around Thay level but would kill himself faster then needed.

My damage per hit was about 35-47 damage at level 21 with rage and improved power attack. While dropping his AC ((even with ice troll feat)) to a sad 31 AC. Even with +4 boots amulet deflection and armor bonus.

Go ahead and say bad build or bad player skill or bad items. Make any excuse you want the power of a STR based fighter is sad. Even rangers get hips which helps stay alive and hit creature. And it was sad being in a party where they had to raise me every 3 mins cause Dah was so weak. That 40 in STR means nothing if you die before you can kill something.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

It's funny how rogues are DPS and Barbarians are squishy

But ya a Prc limited to orcs and half orcs would offer maybe a chance for barbarians to shine. The class could include things like skill focus intimidate, the charge feats, and some other stuff. Let the orc players create the class name/back story through RP while qc comes up with a balanced prc. A lot of other races have unique classes already - Dwarven Defender, Red Wizard of Thay, Breach Gnome, Arcane Archer, Warsling Sniper, Battlerager, and Thayan Knight.

[Thorsson]

Point is not ranger, Dah was a STR based barb Frenzy fighter. With all +4ac gear he had 33AC at 21 and 39 with shield, even like this his power was extremely low and he would die to even xvarts or Dire bears. Call it bad building everything in his build was fine but due to lack of skills and other such he would make No money as he spent more on healing kits then he made. He died of a total of 146 times before I finally deleted him because 3 things. One he would never fit the true RP of his back story unless hunter PRC came out ((someone suggested a orc only PRC that's the closest))
Two he didn't have the AC or hips or spells to survive being way laid by high level bandits walking to nashkel. And didn't have the AB to hit anything often enough to deal heavy damage to kill target before he dies.
Three going into rage frenzy gave him the power to kill Xvarts and such around Thay level but would kill himself faster then needed.

My damage per hit was about 35-47 damage at level 21 with rage and improved power attack. While dropping his AC ((even with ice troll feat)) to a sad 31 AC. Even with +4 boots amulet deflection and armor bonus.

Go ahead and say bad build or bad player skill or bad items. Make any excuse you want the power of a STR based fighter is sad. Even rangers get hips which helps stay alive and hit creature. And it was sad being in a party where they had to raise me every 3 mins cause Dah was so weak. That 40 in STR means nothing if you die before you can kill something.

This is nothing to do with being a Half Orc. Any melee build trying to take on Xvarts solo would be dogmeat. However how you got to 39AC with +4 Gear and a Tower Shield I don't know; base 10+8 Plate+4 TS +5x4 gear = 42AC without Tumble or a single AC Feat.

[mrm3ntalist]

Point is not ranger, Dah was a STR based barb Frenzy fighter. With all +4ac gear he had 33AC at 21 and 39 with shield, even like this his power was extremely low and he would die to even xvarts or Dire bears. Call it bad building everything in his build was fine but due to lack of skills and other such he would make No money as he spent more on healing kits then he made. He died of a total of 146 times before I finally deleted him because 3 things. One he would never fit the true RP of his back story unless hunter PRC came out ((someone suggested a orc only PRC that's the closest))
Two he didn't have the AC or hips or spells to survive being way laid by high level bandits walking to nashkel. And didn't have the AB to hit anything often enough to deal heavy damage to kill target before he dies.
Three going into rage frenzy gave him the power to kill Xvarts and such around Thay level but would kill himself faster then needed.

My damage per hit was about 35-47 damage at level 21 with rage and improved power attack. While dropping his AC ((even with ice troll feat)) to a sad 31 AC. Even with +4 boots amulet deflection and armor bonus.

Go ahead and say bad build or bad player skill or bad items. Make any excuse you want the power of a STR based fighter is sad. Even rangers get hips which helps stay alive and hit creature. And it was sad being in a party where they had to raise me every 3 mins cause Dah was so weak. That 40 in STR means nothing if you die before you can kill something.

Hi tankteddy. What you describe is not a problem of the half-orc race but of the barbarian class, which is very low in power compared to other classes. Even if you made the build on a human, it would still be bad.

For a couple of weeks i have been looking into the class and already made a suggestion to give the class a small boost, while i have another couple of proposals. For reference, the strongest barbarian for BGTSCC I could make is a one with high 22CON epic DR9 and Fast healing two. It performed rather well, however still a lot need to be done for barbarians because evem then it is a weak class to play.

[thids]

I get suggestions, but I dont see why people are SO dead set against any changes to the HOrc.

What do you care, if you are not affected by it? For those saying "well I AM affected", tell me how, please?

Do you realize how inane this sounds? We are here to discuss things OBJECTIVELY, or at least as objectively as possible.

I couldn't care less about what is done with Half Orcs. If anything, that should make my arguments more welcome, not shunned away. I could close this thread and never open it again, purging it from my memory, until one day I read on the patch notes "HALF ORC CHANGES: NEGATIVE ATTRIBUTES REMOVED, SKILLED FEAT ADDED" at which point I would likely just shrug and be like whatevs.