Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Thorsson wrote:

Rhifox wrote:Which already occurs, with people like Aeili. For those people, mystic theurge is definitely valuable, even in a nerfed state.

Depends on the nerf I expect. 5/10 spell progression, every odd in 1 class, every even in another. That way there is no mechanical gain. Now who wants it?

5/10 is not "no mechanical benefit" it is objectively WORSE than 5 levels of one class and 5 of the other, as at least you get the additional benefits of the base class that way.

Thorsson wrote:

Rhifox wrote:There are plenty of people who would take it, even in a nerfed state, since there are a lot of character concepts that would benefit greatly from having it regardless of how powerful it is.

Bah, humbug. Nothing to stop you taking Cleric and Wizard now and RPing being a Mystic Theurge.

Hehehehe...

Except, before the patch a, say, 17 Cleric 13 Wizard or 13 Cleric 17 Wizard was an absolute powerhouse...and now, it's a piece of crap.

Apart from that, yeah, nothing stops you

On topic: it is only logical that after a change that suddenly transformed caster level into the biggest and most valuable commodity on the server, a class that provides full progression to two classes' CL contemporarily is overpowered. It doesn't take 5 pages of thread to understand that. At least, it shouldn't.

Want to balance it? Adjust the requirements so that it can be taken only from lvl 6 on, and limit it to Wiz/Cle (so, the only possible build would be Wiz/Cle/MT). Make Skill focus Spellcraft and Concentration mandatory. There: balanced.

Have fun.

as theurges go i could find:
Zezania Tarth-Kelet that is a follower of Shar so it should have a limitation in spell usage to shadowweave
Greyanna Dhuurniv is a Lolth worshiper and that should also limit the arcane usage to what Lolth can provide with demon weave.
Corinna Lathankin- is a half moonelf with Lathander as a deity, this one should get spells from fey heritage.

So imo if you want a theurge you should only be able to cast certain spells depending on your god.

Boddynock wrote:

Thorsson wrote:

Rhifox wrote:Which already occurs, with people like Aeili. For those people, mystic theurge is definitely valuable, even in a nerfed state.

Depends on the nerf I expect. 5/10 spell progression, every odd in 1 class, every even in another. That way there is no mechanical gain. Now who wants it?

5/10 is not "no mechanical benefit" it is objectively WORSE than 5 levels of one class and 5 of the other, as at least you get the additional benefits of the base class that way.

But if it was an RP choice then that wouldn't matter, would it?

BigJ wrote:Just to emphasize HALF DAMAGE to secondary targets. The first target hit will be 21d6, all the rest will be 10d6. Eldritch Chain just isn't a great nuking spell, a good controller spell but then your using something other than Vitriolic Sphere (Noxious, Beshadowed etc. Not as good as a Stonehold spell but still pretty good)

Two enemies are rushing towards a level 30 Warlock, and our warlock doesn't roll a single number one.

That is 21d6 on the first enemy, it bounces to second dealing that 10d6~, it bounces back to first dealing that 10d6~, it bounces back to the second dealing that 10d6~, it bounces back to first dealing that 10d6~, it bounces back to the second dealing that 10d6~.

So with one cast, the first enemy was hit for a total of 41d6~ of damage while the second was hit for 30d6. That is damage without Vitriolic Sphere that stacks with itself, or any other Eldricth Essence that might add more damage or saves.

And the thing is, most of the time you are facing mobs in groups of 1-3, which allows our warlock to deal with these small mobs as he runs into them. No need to herd them by dashing back and forth to ensure that mobs do not loose their line of sight.

Additionally, on BGTSCC, Eldritch Doom only targets hostiles. Meaning that if you really want to, you can herd as big of a mob as you can, and then just spam Eldritch Doom at your own feet.

BigJ wrote:Storm Avatar is +100% speed increase, not 50% like haste. Also makes you immune to knockdown, the only spell to do so I think WITHOUT slowing you down.

The spell descriptions on NWN2 are not always the most trustworthy. In stock NWN2, both spells provide '50%' speed increase. You can test it out by yourself by selecting the pre-made level '18' Wizard and Druid characters in the 'Uninvited quests' module and having the two character run the same distance as you measure their time.

As for a spell that make you 'immune' to knockdown without decreasing your movement speed: just use Mirror Image.

BigJ wrote:Greater Restoration is nerfed to 150hp according to spell changes, same its the same amount as a heal spell. Heal also cures blinded, confused, dazzled, deafened, diseased, feebleminded, insane, nauseated, poisoned, and stunned. You can use normal restoration to get rid of lvl drain. Useful additions to a wizard spellbook.

Some of those conditions prevent spell casting to one degree or another, not to mention how the naturally high will saves already act as something of an immunity towards most common sources of those 'mental' effects.

BigJ wrote:Other quick points:
- Does a wizard build really need to ware full-plate for a decent AC against mobs? Could use Tortoise Shell for +9 ac, does Freedom protect from the speed reduction on that? I'm not sure as not played a druid.

Spiderskin already adds +5 Natural AC. (It doesn't stack with amulet and neither does Tortoise shell. Oh, and the movement speed reduction can be avoided with Freedom of Movement on BGTSCC.)

Therefore the difference is '+4' AC, with the exception that any normal Wizard can easily squeeze in the two feats required for Improved Combat Expertise and +6 AC. Then with both full-plate and tower shield, you are potentially looking at another +12 AC more. Therefore, our armored arcanist has access to +14 AC that our example SS/S/MT would not, not withing sacrificing metamagic feats and Charisma. (Number of spells, DCs, etc.) Then let us consider any Sorcerer that could easily squeeze in a three level dip in Turn Undead class and get Divine Shield. (Their Charisma modifier to AC.)

Thus the bottom line is, your AC is going to be lower than with a regular arcanist, let alone a 'power built' one. Hence you need to rely more on your mirror images, concealment, other distractions, and plain old luck to avoid being hit. (And actively using Blood Magic will not really do any wonders to your own HP pool.)

BigJ wrote:- That spare feat? Howabout Telthor Companion, that way you can have two summons out whilst nuking. Would look cool with a Phantom Bear.

Telthor Companion is much like the Druid animal companion. Therefore, for it to be of any mechanical use, you need to get 30 levels of Spirit Shaman and spend two feats on top of the one that went into the Telthor. As for the Phantom Bear, the Elemental Summons were far superior when I played my Druid.

BigJ wrote:- SS/sorc doesn't need greater shout for 36d6, its has greater fireburst, Chain Lightening, Firestorm, IGMS.

And any regular Sorcerer or Wizard can still go for the Arcane Scholar PRC and both Empower and Maximize most of the spells you listed at a lower level. Granting them the better selection of offensive spells. Not to mention that the ability to invest on feats or additional PRCs that would increase their spells DCs even further gives an added boost to their 'save or die' spells.

BigJ wrote:- I see you didn't mention the Stonehold spell. Not surprising, I hear druids love that spell.

It is blocked by immunity to mind affecting. As for its usability, it depends. Does our druid want to use their ninth level slots on buffing up a beastly animal companion, or do they prefer standing in the middle of a Storm of Vengeance?

BigJ wrote:Whatever way you cut it, putting two spellbooks into one character with FULL dc's as per a pure single build is overpowered.

The build we have discussed thus far can reach DCs of 37. (Which is only possible by imposing themselves with self harm via Blood Magic, the DCs are 33 without Blood Magic.)

A single class Sorcerer or Wizard can reach DCs of 36 with ease, and 39 with a specific school of spell via Epic Spell focus. (The one school of spells that really matters to you.) If you multi-class our single class Sorcerer or Wizard with various PRCs, you can achieve even higher spell DCs.

As for our single class Spirit Shaman, it is the same story as above, except with additional +4 thanks to the Blood Magic feat.

So tell me, how does our SS/S/MT gain 'FULL' spell DCs in two spell books?

BigJ wrote:Now a Cleric/Wizard ONLY MT class still smacks of abuse potential but at least it has to prop two stats. Nerf the MT progression, make it application only and then maybe see how it goes.

Your SS/S/MT has to prop up two stats. Your 'master blaster' cannot cast any Spirit Shaman spells without an investment in Wisdom. (Base 16 and + 3 from an item is required as the bare minimum.)

As for nerfing the MT's spell casting progression and seeing how it goes, we really do not need to look beyond an already implemented PRC. A case point: Black Flame Zealot. BGTSCC's only PRC for your AD&D 'Cleric/Thief.' A PRC so horrible that I was advised against using it. A PRC that most probably do not even realize existing on this server.

So let us entertain the thought that Mystic Theurge is implemented with a decreased spell casting progression. There is the initial rush to try out a new thing, to try a new 'OP' spell caster with two spell books!

But after a while the reality will kick in. People will notice how often they get dispelled. They will level up and discover a longing for spells they would normally have access to with a regular spell caster. They will see a sudden jolt in the prices of those +3 Wisdom and other ability items due to the sudden increase in demand. The game engine bugs with spontaneous spell casting progression. As for game-play itself, they may have two spell books, but those did not come for free... There are other things you could have, better things. Etc...

How many will be playing a Mystic Theurge after few months? Probably just as many that were playing a Black Flame Zealot two months after its release. The ones that want the PRC for 'RP.'

So yeah, I am still recommending that '10+10'/Spell casting progression, because even with that progression - Mystic Theurge is not that great of a deal.

Invoker wrote:On topic: it is only logical that after a change that suddenly transformed caster level into the biggest and most valuable commodity on the server, a class that provides full progression to two classes' CL contemporarily is overpowered. It doesn't take 5 pages of thread to understand that. At least, it shouldn't.

Invoker wrote:it is only logical that after a change that suddenly transformed caster level into the biggest and most valuable commodity on the server,

- This is something that I completely agree with you.

Invoker wrote:a class that provides full progression to two classes' CL contemporarily is overpowered.

- A Mystic Theurge is a PRC that allows a maximum of 10 levels. The maximum level acquirable on this server is 30. Therefore, even if Mystic Theurge provides full spell casting progression for two spell casting classes for all of the PRC's 10 levels, it still does not provide full spell casting progression as far as the maximum level cap of 30 is concerned.

As it was discussed earlier. With an even split, we are looking at 24/24 out of 30. Or alternatively something like 18/30 out of 30. (And I am being generous here by not considering the possibilities of a dedicated caster raising their caster level beyond maximum HD of 30 via various PRCs.)

Thus, by the above definition, Mystic Theurge is not overpowered.

Invoker wrote:It doesn't take 5 pages of thread to understand that. At least, it shouldn't.

It really shouldn't.

Dude, your doing it again, putting so much determination into it your skipping things .

And the thing is, most of the time you are facing mobs in groups of 1-3

Okay, I'll ignore the fact I've personally ran into bigger groups than 1-3, and we'll also not mention DM events.

1 Mob - You do 21d6.
2 mobs - 41d6 primary, 30d6 secondary.
3 mobs - 31d6 primary, 20d6 secondary, 20d6 tertiary.

Empowered Firebrand - 36d6 to all.

Hmm, so 1/3rd of the time you do nigh on the same total damage, the other 2/3rds you do less. Assuming of course there's no 4th mob or break in chain.

Of course that's assuming no one has Storm Avatar loaded, you know, as it blocks all ranged attacks including ranged touch attacks whilst providing that knockdown immunity. Damn useful spell that. Your right about that speed thing though, damn NWN2 stock descriptions

Gah, I'm spending to much time here, I don't have your determination for this.

Quickly-

Mirror Image - If this prevents knockdown does that mean your not being hit? Why all that talk about AC then?

Freedom - Slight contradiction here. You said it wasn't useful earlier yet it prevents the slow down effect from wizard spells, is that all of them like Stone Body say? Cool.

Summons - Proving my point again. Elemental summons ARE superior and you can cast them from your druid book, leaving all your wizard slots for other things and even if they are not comparable two summons are always better than one.

Storm of Vengeance - I forgot that one, how cool standing in the middle of one of those whilst blasting your wizards spells, having Body of the Sun active for anything getting close and two summons (one elemental) running blocking patterns.

Wisdom - An Aasimar SS/Sorc can start with 16 WIS and 18 CHA, add that +3 item and your set for 9th spells from first level. All pumps go into CHA.

DC's - SS/Sorc, I may be missing something here, but firstly the STAT dc, pump CHA and your gaining max DC's for both books, just like a wiz starting 18 INT and a Druid starting with 18 WIS. Keep pumping the same stat boosts into cha, like you would INT for a wiz and WIS for a druid.

FEATS - Cant the Aasimar SS/Sorc take the same spell focus feats as a single class Sorc? One spell focus feat increasing DC's for both books?

Storm of Avatar - Its an 8th lvl spell, not 9th.

Hells I did it again, got sucked in and spent time I could have used IG or writing poetry. Ah well I'll just go with the flow when all said and done, the thread was about a poll afterall. What's the poll say?

BigJ

Dawrf wrote: - A Mystic Theurge is a PRC that allows a maximum of 10 levels. The maximum level acquirable on this server is 30. Therefore, even if Mystic Theurge provides full spell casting progression for two spell casting classes for all of the PRC's 10 levels, it still does not provide full spell casting progression as far as the maximum level cap of 30 is concerned.

As it was discussed earlier. With an even split, we are looking at 24/24 out of 30. Or alternatively something like 18/30 out of 30. (And I am being generous here by not considering the possibilities of a dedicated caster raising their caster level beyond maximum HD of 30 via various PRCs.)

Thus, by the above definition, Mystic Theurge is not overpowered.

You seem smart, but you either are simply turning a blind eye to certain aspects of this matter, or aren't a very experienced player.

As a Theurge, you get 24/24 or 18/30. Except, you get the full amount of spells according to progression and stats for BOTH. Two spellbooks. Sure, you've got low physical attributes to raise INT and WIS...big deal. I played STR 8 CON 10 mages forever, without an issue and with less total deaths in years than it will take the average Joe to level to 10. Casters are just that strong, when you can play them.

Thus, by the above definition, you either didn't play caster much, or didn't consider the matter carefully: the amount of spells this character would be able to cast is completely out of control. It already is as Wiz/Cle, to be frank, with the only issue being even kids dispel you at present.

Before patch, Wiz17 Cle 13 or Wiz 13 Cle 17 was a shameless powerbuild, of which I know a few examples .

Invoker wrote:It doesn't take 5 pages of thread to understand that. At least, it shouldn't.

It really shouldn't.

QFT

BigJ wrote:Okay, I'll ignore the fact I've personally ran into bigger groups than 1-3, and we'll also not mention DM events.

Oh, I have seen groups bigger than three. It is just that for most part of my own game play experience on this server, it bottles down to encounters of 1-3 foes at a time. As for DM events - that depends solely on how actively you seek to participate in one.

BigJ wrote:Hmm, so 1/3rd of the time you do nigh on the same total damage, the other 2/3rds you do less. Assuming of course there's no 4th mob or break in chain.

And as you deal just damage, a Warlock can still apply any essence they deem worthy. We have discussed this already.

BigJ wrote:Of course that's assuming no one has Storm Avatar loaded, you know, as it blocks all ranged attacks including ranged touch attacks whilst providing that knockdown immunity. Damn useful spell that. Your right about that speed thing though, damn NWN2 stock descriptions

As for blocking ranged touch attacks.. It has been a while, I admit, but if my memory serves,all a fellow player needs to do is unequip their weapon and ranged touch attacks will hit. (Same thing as with Deflect Arrows or Epic Dodge feat.)

BigJ wrote:Mirror Image - If this prevents knockdown does that mean your not being hit? Why all that talk about AC then?

Because certain things work very well together, such as High AC and Mirror Image. A high AC alone prevents you from being hit.

BigJ wrote:Freedom - Slight contradiction here. You said it wasn't useful earlier yet it prevents the slow down effect from wizard spells, is that all of them like Stone Body say? Cool.

Stone Body, it comes with a 50% arcane spell failure. (Your build will not have Automatic Still Feats without first sacrificing your spell DC.)

BigJ wrote:Summons - Proving my point again. Elemental summons ARE superior and you can cast them from your druid book, leaving all your wizard slots for other things and even if they are not comparable two summons are always better than one.

The Telthor will cost you a feat. A feat you might not be able to squeeze in, because SS/S/MT as a build is more feat starved than a single class Barbarian.

BigJ wrote:Storm of Vengeance - I forgot that one, how cool standing in the middle of one of those whilst blasting your wizards spells, having Body of the Sun active for anything getting close and two summons (one elemental) running blocking patterns.

Forget the 'cool factor' - because if you do not allow the Storm of Vengeance Spell to run its course, you have just wasted a ninth level spell. It is the kind of spell where you first collect a mob, and then stand still taking a beating just so that the spell can do its work.

This is where the high AC becomes necessary. And a single class Spirit Shaman could just get the Acidic Splatter Reserve feat to spam while he waits for STorm of Vengeance to run its course.

BigJ wrote:Wisdom - An Aasimar SS/Sorc can start with 16 WIS and 18 CHA, add that +3 item and your set for 9th spells from first level. All pumps go into CHA.

Yes, I am fully aware. But it is you who also wants to use Blood Magic, which comes at the cost of your own HP. It is not the 'cute pinprick' of the Bloodmagus PRC, it is your character taking a pair of scissors and hacking through his own arm.

You are going to require an investment in constitution, and as it was discussed earlier: What about your carrying capacity from strength, AC from dexterity, and skill points from intelligence, which are you going to make dump stats?

BigJ wrote:DC's - SS/Sorc, I may be missing something here, but firstly the STAT dc, pump CHA and your gaining max DC's for both books, just like a wiz starting 18 INT and a Druid starting with 18 WIS. Keep pumping the same stat boosts into cha, like you would INT for a wiz and WIS for a druid.

A SS/S/MT gains less feats than a single class Sorcerer. Therefore, while you can pump out your 'charisma' - our Sorcerer can pump it up even more.

BigJ wrote:FEATS - Cant the Aasimar SS/Sorc take the same spell focus feats as a single class Sorc? One spell focus feat increasing DC's for both books?

Oh, you can take Spell Focus feats to increase your Sorcerer and Spirit Shaman spell DCs. However, where are you going to take those feats from?

As an Aasimar:
Level 1) Spell casting prodigy
Level 3) Practiced Spell Caster (Sorcerer)
Level 6) Practiced Spell Caster (Spirit Shaman)
Level 9) Empower Spell
Level 12) Maximize Spell
Level 15) Quicken Spell
Level 18) Blood Magic
Level 21) Great Charisma
Level 23) Great Charisma
Level 25) Great Charisma
Level 27) Great Charisma
Level 29) (The unspent feat I have been talking about before.)

What are you going to drop out to fit in three Spell Focus feats? Metamagic? Less spamming of your favorite spells. Practised Spell Caster? Less caster levels. Blood Magic or Spell Casting Prodigy? You would actually loose DC.

BigJ wrote:Storm of Avatar - Its an 8th lvl spell, not 9th.

Where did I claim that? I was speaking of Druid's animal companion, and the ninth level companion buff spell: Nature's Avatar. You fill your slots with that, or Storm of VEngeance, depending on preferences.

BigJ wrote:Hells I did it again, got sucked in and spent time I could have used IG or writing poetry. Ah well I'll just go with the flow when all said and done, the thread was about a poll afterall. What's the poll say?

First option: number of of people who just want a 'mystic theurge.'
Second option: number of people who see no problem with it balance wise.
Third option: number of people who see balance issues with it.
Fourth option: the usual lot of people who tend vote no just because it is a 'caster PRC.'

Invoker wrote:You seem smart, but you either are simply turning a blind eye to certain aspects of this matter, or aren't a very experienced player.

This is something I can say right back at you.

Invoker wrote:As a Theurge, you get 24/24 or 18/30. Except, you get the full amount of spells according to progression and stats for BOTH. Two spellbooks. Sure, you've got low physical attributes to raise INT and WIS...big deal. I played STR 8 CON 10 mages forever, without an issue and with less total deaths in years than it will take the average Joe to level to 10. Casters are just that strong, when you can play them.

For example the 24/24 build. If you are not a human/half-elf or pick a race based on favored class, you will have to keep your two base classes within one level of each other to avoid the multiclassing experience penalty. Therefore the 'full amount of spells' is acquired at a delayed rate, and the further you reach into the epics, the more your caster level is lagging behind. Even as a HD 30 character, you still have to worry about dispels.

As for the 18/30 split, you kind of already made my point with your previous post. "The Cleric 13/Wizard 17 or Cleric 17/Wizard 17 is shit thanks to dispel fix." Thus while the caster level 30 side of this Mystic Theurge is alright, the caster level 18 side is certainly not.

Invoker wrote:Thus, by the above definition, you either didn't play caster much, or didn't consider the matter carefully: the amount of spells this character would be able to cast is completely out of control. It already is as Wiz/Cle, to be frank, with the only issue being even kids dispel you at present.

Today, unlike with that previous Wizard/Cleric, you will be dispelled. Hence, the number of spells is not that much of an issue. You spent turns buffing up and then loose all your spells with a single dispel. You could Ethereal Jaunt away, and buff up yet again... But for how long until the futility sets in?

And moreover, what did you specialize your Mystic Theurge for? As you are, by default, quite feat starved.

Invoker wrote:

Invoker wrote:It doesn't take 5 pages of thread to understand that. At least, it shouldn't.

It really shouldn't.

QFT

And you steal the words from my mouth yet again.

It's unbelievable that you consider a 30/18 split with two spellbooks balanced and fine (or even other splits, tbh), because the second spellbook (that could be buffs, but also heals, direct dmg no save spells and whatnot) could be dispelled.

If you can't see the difference between a 21/17 (previous Wiz/Cle of my example) caster and a 30/18 one, then idk what to say.

You sort of tried to keep your replies logical until now, but this doesn't make any sense to anybody that can really play a caster. So I'll have to fundamentally disagree here.

And no. You can't tell me I am not experienced. I have played successfully more casters to lvl 30 and beyond on the server than you can imagine.

BigJ wrote:
- I see you didn't mention the Stonehold spell. Not surprising, I hear druids love that spell.

It is blocked by immunity to mind affecting. As for its usability, it depends. Does our druid want to use their ninth level slots on buffing up a beastly animal companion, or do they prefer standing in the middle of a Storm of Vengeance?

Oh your right, it was Stonehold you used that reference, you know, a SIXTH level spell. Not exactly sure what that has to do with Druid using ninth level slots.

As for blocking ranged touch attacks.. It has been a while, I admit, but if my memory serves,all a fellow player needs to do is unequip their weapon and ranged touch attacks will hit. (Same thing as with Deflect Arrows or Epic Dodge feat.)

Why on earth would you do that? Is this some kind of exploit I don't know about?

Wisdom - An Aasimar SS/Sorc can start with 16 WIS and 18 CHA, add that +3 item and your set for 9th spells from first level. All pumps go into CHA.

Yes, I am fully aware. But it is you who also wants to use Blood Magic, which comes at the cost of your own HP. It is not the 'cute pinprick' of the Bloodmagus PRC, it is your character taking a pair of scissors and hacking through his own arm.

You are going to require an investment in constitution, and as it was discussed earlier: What about your carrying capacity from strength, AC from dexterity, and skill points from intelligence, which are you going to make dump stats?

Now you have resorted to putting words in my mouth and I don't like that. I admired your passion Dwarf, but I don't admire this. I have NEVER ONCE mentioned blood feet in any of my posts. Do not put words in my mouth again.

What I did say is a SS/Sorc/MT can choose the exact same feats as a PURE sorc, which is absolutely correct. As regard a couple of feats gained by multicasting, you instead get a complete new spellbook with 9th level spells.

A SS/S/MT gains less feats than a single class Sorcerer.

I am beginning to think you are making these mistakes deliberately Dwarf, intent of creating walls of text to overwhelm rather than discuss facts. Exactly how does a single class Sorc gain more feats? The SS/S/MT has to use ONE extra feat for 2 x practised invoker, but apart from that how does that list you kindly provided differ for a Pure based Sorc?.

First option: number of of people who just want a 'mystic theurge.'
Second option: number of people who see no problem with it balance wise.
Third option: number of people who see balance issues with it.
Fourth option: the usual lot of people who tend vote no just because it is a 'caster PRC.'

Ahh I see, you posed the poll, you created the questions but now because you do not like the results you dismiss option 4 as irrelevant. Not very democratic to offer a choice then insult people because they took it.

You're doing a lot of dismissing like that Dwarf, anything that counters your viewpoint actually.

I'm done with this thread as its only going to go downhill from here so I would suggest to DM's that what could be discussed has been discussed and to lock the thread.

BigJ

PS. Hey, look at that, I created a wall of text!

Invoker wrote:It's unbelievable that you consider a 30/18 split with two spellbooks balanced and fine (or even other splits, tbh), because the second spellbook (that could be buffs, but also heals, direct dmg no save spells and whatnot) could be dispelled.

With that 18/30 split:

If the lower half is divine, you get heals and revives.
[*](In other words, you can skip investing in Heal skill and carrying Healing kits along with scrolls of Raise Dead that everyone can use. But fundamentally, nothing we do not already have. Then your Divine buffs are easily dispelled, and not even maxed out.)

If the lower half is arcane, you get easily dispelled stock buffs and few 18d6 offensive spells?
[*](Which is not much better than investing in UMD with our current dispels, you do save some gold, but what else is there? And which arcane class did you pick anyhow, what are your offensive Spell DCs? And let us not forget that lovely armor based arcane spell failure.)

As for the 'much discussed' 24/24 split, if our Aasimar wants to avoid multiclassing experience penalty, he would have the 'full caster progression' at level 30.

Invoker wrote:If you can't see the difference between a 21/17 (previous Wiz/Cle of my example) caster and a 30/18 one, then idk what to say.

That '21/17 Wiz/Cle' was basically a '30/30 Wiz/Cle' before the dispel fix.

A '30/18 Mystic Theurge' against anything that can dispel - becomes a single class caster without the three extra epic bonus feats - and let us not forget their assortment of 'wasted feats' any single class caster would not have been ever compelled to take.

Invoker wrote:You sort of tried to keep your replies logical until now, but this doesn't make any sense to anybody that can really play a caster. So I'll have to fundamentally disagree here.

'Anybody that can really play a caster?'

Please, that is no special talent of any merit. I mean, all you have to do is get familiar with your spell selection and then get familiar with areas so you can 'abuse' the best possible spell selection.

I mean, you could do something similar with a HiPS Rogue. You find out what equipment you can get, then get some data on what the mobs do and do not in any specific area, and then 'abuse' that knowledge for the best possible outcome.

Does that mean HiPS Rogues are OP too? (You have placed it at the bottom end of your food chain pyramid.)

Invoker wrote:And no. You can't tell me I am not experienced. I have played successfully more casters to lvl 30 and beyond on the server than you can imagine.

Which is why you should create a level 18 character such as: Something 4/ Cleric-Wizard-Whatever 14. Pick the Practised spell caster feat, and go through all areas to see where you get dispelled or not.

After all, you are experienced, so this task should be within your talents. (Currently you can do 100% RCRs, if I am not mistaken, so RCR level up to 18, check things out, RCR back to level 30 or whatever.)

That '21/17 Wiz/Cle' was basically a '30/30 Wiz/Cle' before the dispel fix.

Sure thing. As far as dispels are concerned. For everything else (dmg dice & spell power, spell duration, spell penetration, DC...), not by far. I don't even...

Dawrf wrote: As for the 'much discussed' 24/24 split, if our Aasimar wants to avoid multiclassing experience penalty, he would have the 'full caster progression' at level 30.

When you balance, it doesn't matter when you peak. It's what happens when you do that counts. A character with two spellbooks, of which one is CL 30, can never be balanced in this meta, unless you apply the restrictions I suggested, or similar.

I don't understand how a CL 30/18 caster with a few feats less results underpowered to you. I start to believe there's an agenda behind this suggestion, because as far as power is concerned, this kind of Mystic Theurge would have no trouble doing anything, anywhere on the server. In my hands. But you said there's no problem with usage, so...?

A '30/18 Mystic Theurge' against anything that can dispel - becomes a single class caster without the three extra epic bonus feats - and let us not forget their assortment of 'wasted feats' any single class caster would not have been ever compelled to take.

No, unless you are so bad that you take buffs from the CL 18 spellbook into a dispel-heavy area, and hope they last...

In case you do, that "single class caster without three epic bonus feats" will wipe the floor with the area. Because that's what casters do.

'Anybody that can really play a caster?'

Please, that is no special talent of any merit. I mean, all you have to do is get familiar with your spell selection and then get familiar with areas so you can 'abuse' the best possible spell selection.

Then go get familiar. And there IS no "best" spell selection...but never do you mind.

I mean, you could do something similar with a HiPS Rogue. You find out what equipment you can get, then get some data on what the mobs do and do not in any specific area, and then 'abuse' that knowledge for the best possible outcome.

Does that mean HiPS Rogues are OP too? (You have placed it at the bottom end of your food chain pyramid.)

You couldn't get farther from truth. This comparison is absolutely baseless, even if you simply consider the options involved. HiPS Rogues have critical weaknesses they can never cover. Nobody with a modicum of knowledge would ever call them OP.

you should create a level 18 character such as: Something 4/ Cleric-Wizard-Whatever 14. Pick the Practised spell caster feat, and go through all areas to see where you get dispelled or not.

After all, you are experienced, so this task should be within your talents. (Currently you can do 100% RCRs, if I am not mistaken, so RCR level up to 18, check things out, RCR back to level 30 or whatever.)

Read my second point: when you balance, peak isn't a concern. Your aforementioned HiPS Rogues can't even damage sneak immune enemies before epics, yet that has nothing to do with their balance issues.

Leveling up issues cannot be a balance concern. Build peaks cannot be a balance concern. Tastes cannot be a balance concern.

But if you think a couple of epic feats on a lvl 30 caster isn't worth ALSO being a lvl 18 OTHER caster, adding a second spellbook, then I don't think we are ever going to agree on this class and its viability and implementation options.

Good luck convincing competent people that you're fine as Wiz30/Cle30, or whatever else.

BigJ wrote:Oh your right, it was Stonehold you used that reference, you know, a SIXTH level spell. Not exactly sure what that has to do with Druid using ninth level slots.

Both Stonehold and Storm of Vengeance have very similar effect on a failed save. The difference is that SoV deals damage that is enough to get opponents killed.

Now, as discussed before, a Druid has a choice to either buff up their animal companion or kill things directly with SoV.

Thus with a minor investment in UMD allows you to use wands and cast protection against alignment, hence you can use Stonehold to aid your monstrously powerful animal companion tear through things as you chip in damage with a zen archery boosted bow or whatever.

BigJ wrote:Why on earth would you do that? Is this some kind of exploit I don't know about?

You can boost your melee and ranged touch attack AB by wielding a weapon, however, it makes it so that your melee and ranged touch attacks can be 'deflected' and 'dodged.' Remove your weapon, and it is not a problem anymore.

BigJ wrote:Now you have resorted to putting words in my mouth and I don't like that. I admired your passion Dwarf, but I don't admire this. I have NEVER ONCE mentioned blood feet in any of my posts. Do not put words in my mouth again.

This topic is over five pages long. Before you joined in, there was already discussion about an 'Aasimar SS/S/MT with Blood Magic' - a feat has been mentioned even in our discussion time and time again - a feat that enables your SS/S/MT concept character to even achieve something close to a 'full DC' - as you had put it previously.

BigJ wrote:What I did say is a SS/Sorc/MT can choose the exact same feats as a PURE sorc, which is absolutely correct. As regard a couple of feats gained by multicasting, you instead get a complete new spellbook with 9th level spells.

As I have already stated, a SS/S/MT cannot select the exact same feats that a pure Sorcerer could, a SS/S/MT has fewer feats to spare. It is a mechanical fact that doesn't change no matter how hard you argue against it.

As for an Aasimar SS/S/MT and its two level nine spell books, if you wish to avoid multiclassing experience penalty, you gain your first level 9 spell at level 25. You have maxed your spell progression in both spell books at level 30.

BigJ wrote:I am beginning to think you are making these mistakes deliberately Dwarf, intent of creating walls of text to overwhelm rather than discuss facts. Exactly how does a single class Sorc gain more feats? The SS/S/MT has to use ONE extra feat for 2 x practised invoker, but apart from that how does that list you kindly provided differ for a Pure based Sorc?

A single class Sorcerer gains 3 additional Epic feats on levels: 23, 26, 29.

Additionally, our single class Sorcerer is not required to spend 2 feats on Practiced Spell Caster.

And finally, our single class Sorcerer is not required to spend 1 feat on Blood Magic to get a caster level 28. (He has 30 by default at level 30.)

Thus compared to a SS/S/MT, our single class Sorcerer will have a total of 6 feats to spent on whatever else he might desire. (Which means, higher spell DCs than what our SS/S/MT can muster, as discussed previously.)

BigJ wrote:Ahh I see, you posed the poll, you created the questions but now because you do not like the results you dismiss option 4 as irrelevant. Not very democratic to offer a choice then insult people because they took it.

What I think of the current results has nothing to do with the poll itself. As for disregarding any poll option: if you are going to ignore the 4th one, you might just as well ignore the 1st. Both could be said to be influenced by emotions, but that would not be entirely fair description. The 1st measures the interest towards MT and 4th measures the interest in something else. Hence, to please all, MT could be placed after some melee classes on the infamously long 'to do list.'

As for poll options 2 and 3, I believe forum moderators can actually see who has voted what, forum administrators can do it without a doubt. Therefore, it is possible to identify who has voted what, and sadly not everyone's insight is valued at the same level. Hence, someone's vote option might carry far more weight than that of another.

So yeah, the poll is not exactly democratic in nature. It just exists to provide more data for the staff to make a decision on this Mystic Theurge PRC.

BigJ wrote:You're doing a lot of dismissing like that Dwarf, anything that counters your viewpoint actually.

I can 'dismiss' because I have been able to come up with a counter argument, time and time again. Point out what might not have been fully considered.

And as I mentioned earlier, it was my full intention to discuss this thing as thoroughly as possible. (And there were things I had not considered before hand.)

BigJ wrote:I'm done with this thread as its only going to go downhill from here so I would suggest to DM's that what could be discussed has been discussed and to lock the thread.

BigJ

PS. Hey, look at that, I created a wall of text!

Hopefully there is time for at least one more post by me, but it will not be the response to Invoker's latest, which crept up while I was writing this one.