The Bladesinger PRC

[Tantive]

How is the Bladesinger different to the class of the Red Wizard of Thay, Silverstar of Selûne, Morninglord of Lathander, Shadow Adept, Techsmith of Gond, Breach Gnome and Shield Dwarf, in its very specific lore and playercount, especially when largely the amount of work in the making of the class save edits, already exists in Kaedrins work?

Developers won't be put to work, developers work where they have an interest in foremost, as this is not run as a business.

[Tantive]

I mostly quote the book for the lore portions. And there, Yes it does state it. It makes a rather large stupilation that drow and half-elves are never taught the style on page 71.

You kinda proved my point right there. That section on Page 71 is titled "Bladesong Fighting Style". It talks about a purely martial fighting style that requires two weapon slots and not smashing blows but moving to throw your opponent off balance before striking. It also says this style is usually only practised by warriors.

On pg 71 it does say "Please note: elves never teach this style to non-elves, including half-elves and drow (The latter of whom have their OWN TEACHERS and THEIR OWN style anyway)" but this is about the FIGHTING STYLE.

Critically is says in the second paragraph on Pg 71. "There are two types of Bladesingers: Those who learn it as an additional skill (Described below ((Ie. Pg 71))., and those who have made it their lives. Those in this second category are known as Bladesingers, and they are described in Chapter Ten ((Pg. 88, Fighter / Mage Kits)).

So Pg 71, Martial Fighting Style, of which Drow have their own equivalent, and Pg 88 for the Fighter/Mage kit version which doesn't specify any sub-race or alignment restrictions. Only quote I could see was "Suggested Elf Subraces: Grey Elf, High Elf". Key word being 'Suggest'.

Like I said, confusion over both the warrior version and the fighter/mage version both being called 'Bladesingers'.

BigJ

The way it differs style for duskblade is quite prevalent in the differing features.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Duskblades are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as all armors and shields (except tower shields).

Spells: A duskblade casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the duskblade spell list on page 24. Duskblade spells unique to this book appear on a spell list Page 98.
To learn or cast a spell, you must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Int 10 for 0-level spells, Int 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against your spell is 10 + the spell level + your Int modifier.

You can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Your base daily spell allotment is given on Table 1—3. In addition, you receive bonus spells per day if you have a high Intelligence score (see Table 1—1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells, page 8 of the Player's Handbook).

A duskblade's caster level is equivalent to his class level.
Spells Known: You begin play knowing two 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells, chosen from the duskblade spell list. You also know one additional 0-level spell for each point of Intelligence bonus.

Each time you gain a new class level, you learn one additional spell of any level you can cast, chosen from the duskblade spell list.

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every subsequent odd-numbered level, you can choose to learn a new spell in place of one you already know. In effect, you lose access to the old spell in exchange for gaining the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level spell you can cast. For instance, upon reaching 9th level, you could trade in a single 1st-level spell (two levels below the highest-level spell you can cast, which is 3rd) for a different 1st-level spell. You can swap only a single spell at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that you gain new spells known for the level.

You need not prepare spells in advance. You can cast any spell you know at any time, assuming you have not yet used up your spells per day for that spell level.
Arcane Attunement (Sp): You can use the spell-like powers dancing lights, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, and read magic a combined total of times per day equal to 3 + your Int modifier. These spell-like powers do not count against your total of spells known or spells per day.

Armored Mage (Ex): Normally, armor of any type interferes with an arcane spellcaster's gestures, which can cause spells to fail if those spells have a somatic component. A duskblade's limited focus and specialized training, however, allows you to avoid arcane spell failure so long as you stick to light armor and light shields. This training does not extend to medium or heavy armors, nor to heavy shields. This ability does not apply to spells gained from a different spellcasting class.
At 4th level, you learn to use medium armor with no chance of arcane spell failure.
At 7th level, you learn to use a heavy shield with no chance of arcane spell failure.

Combat Casting: At 2nd level, you gain Combat Casting as a bonus feat.

Arcane Channeling (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, you can use a standard action to cast any touch spell you know and deliver the spell through your weapon with a melee attack. Casting a spell in this manner does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action or less. If the melee attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved.

At 13th level, you can cast any touch spell you know as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round. Doing so discharges the spell at the end of the round, in the case of a touch spell that would otherwise last longer than 1 round.

Quick Cast: Beginning at 5th level, you can cast one spell each day as a swift action, so long as the casting time of the spell is 1 standard action or less.
You can use this ability twice per day at 10th level, three times per day at 15th level, and four times per day at 20th level.

Spell Power (Ex): Starting at 6th level, you can more easily overcome the spell resistance of any opponent you successfully injure with a melee attack. If you have injured an opponent with a melee attack, you gain a +2 bonus on your caster level check to overcome spell resistance for the remainder of the encounter. This bonus increases to +3 at 11th level, to +4 at 16th level, and to +5 at 18th level.

Two distinctive differences. They use Shields, they cast Touch Spells upon their sword and hit people with it. (Mithral full plate somehow also seems allowed if you used Battlecaster feat from Complete Arcana, but that also includes bladesinger it appears)

And the class goes to level 20, which confuses me. Is it a prc? Is it a base class?

In fact the touch spells on the sword reminds me of what arcane archer is supposed to have for their arrows. Imbueing area of affect spells on the arrow.

[BigJ]

I never mentioned Duskblades, that's a different class. Others have mentioned them though so I can understand why you have posted all that.

I will try and clarify it a little clearer.

2e

You took a class, (Rogue, fighter, ranger etc) and then had proficiency points you could spend on abilities. As fighters had more of these points they qualified easily for a fighting style (Two handed, duel, single, shield), This gave you a few extra abilities when you used that style (+1 hit, +2 damage, +2 ac etc).

Bardsong is a fighting style, you could be a pure fighter build and be a bladesinger using this fighting style (Pg 71). No spell casting involved. Drow have there own version of this fighting style.

I remember now there was no ASF in 2e, you couldn't cast spells in armour period, end off (Except for Elven Chain? But ALL spell casters could cast in elven chain).

Multi-classing was weird in 2e (going of my BG1 memory banks here). Humans could dual class anything (Dual class), non-humans were pigeon holed in to multi-class types (Ftr/Mage, Ranger/Cleric, etc).

If you choose Ftr/Mage and met the restrictions you could add a kit, bladesinger kit (man, why didn't they call it something else) you got some extra bonuses. Drow can choose ftr/mage, and as an elven sub-race also qualify for the bladesinger kit (Pg 88).

The Bladesinger kit (Pg 88), has nothing to do with the bladesinger fighting style (pg 71) as you could not pick both. You were either a pure fighter (Pg 71, although you could use other base classes the requirements meant you got it late) or you were a Ftr/Mage Multi-class (Pg 88, not the same thing as 3.5e multi-class) who also took the bladesinger kit.

I did find a telling comment on rpgforums about bladesingers- "And it's telling when even the guy who created the kit tells people not to use it". I have not verified that on another source yet.

Still, for me that leaves the 3.5 edition as the one to use for base (no restrictions) although it does seem spliced together from already confusing 2e source material.

However it still extremely OP compared to other gish builds as you get SIX epic feats for free (Auto quicken I/II/II which should require 30 spellcraft/Lvl 9 spells + quicken feat, and Auto-Still I/II/III requiring 27 spellcraft/lvl 9 + still feat)

Not to mention the AC bonuses it gets to keep in armour when other classes lose that stat/ac bonus in armour.

BigJ

[Ravial]

It isn't necessary to build it from a scratch. Kaedrin already made it.
It just will seriously need adjustments/nerf for bgtscc.

[Tantive]

Song of Celerity is supposed to be the personification in Bladesinger of the use of magic with the free hand and melee in the other in tandem. The use of Autoquicken is the mechanic to represent it best. However it is not supposed to work as an auto quicken for all, just the free actions during melee combat for spells.

An appropriate form would as described before be, 1 free action for a 1 action spell(no multiple round spells like Sending or Scrying), with blade in hand. Allowing melee and casting in the same round. Its not supposed to work as a form of quicken, then another spell on top to do two in a round. Just to allow melee and spell in the same round.

In the case of a longsword, that means if a Song of Celerity 'mode' is toggled, the offhand is empty and the Mainhand has the Blade. Maybe represented with an empty item that goes in the offhand slot, that doesn't reduce Ab because of dual wielding, but simply makes the longsword be wielded 1 handed. With Song of Celerity off, meaning either you have no spells left to spell or need to in combat - the offhand returns to the hilt and wield the longsword two handed.

[BigJ]

Blimey this bladesinger stuff is confusing.

2e lore (complete book of elves) clearly states the Bladesinger (Ftr/mge version, not the warrior version) is slower at casting spells than a normal wizard, and also may not attack whilst casting spells, although they can still defend against melee.

3e lore (Races of Faerun) states that Bladesingers have there own spellbooks, like assassins, and only goes up to 4th level spells (5 spells available at each level), but can cast one of these spells as a free action each round. Their caster level is equal to their class/bladesinger level, just like assassins.

3.5e lore (Complete Warrior) states that Bladesingers have the full wizard spellbook at 5/10 progression, but can only quicken ONE spell a day, upto a level 2/4 at class lvl 4/8.

2e lore AC bonus is half class +1. 3e/3.5e AC bonus is INT BONUS, not points in INT (Ie. 30 INT required for +10ac)

WoTC really seemed to go out there way to mess this class up, and the internet has so many home brew versions of this class it did my head in. Yet still I looked because sometimes I am a sad *!:*. Some based of 2e, some taking the best things from both 3e and 3.5 then splicing them together.

I'll let the staff sift through the rest, but those are the three main source books that list the class.

BigJ

[metaquad4]

Things that contradict each other exist, and there is a rule around it: Use the most recent content. In our case, since we are both using 2e and 3.5e, we'd go to 3.5.

[Ravial]

Anything about this? Opinions or such? I can't lie, I'd like to see this PRC available around :p Even if nerfed/reworked.

[Tantive]

A base DEX or STR of 18 lets you pour points in INT almost exclusively so you can end up with 27 base INT, to make full use of the INT to AC bonus, spells and DC.

Taking a Sun Elf as a base towards 18 Str, only allows you base 25 INT without putting Int in epic feats. You can put Int points up to 18 base, but are seriously crippled with other stats. 10 dexterity, 10 constitution, 8 wisdom and 8 charisma.

If you want to take it to 27, you will have 18 str, 8 dex, 6 constitution, 27 int, 8 wisdom and 8 charisma.

And if you take a moonelf, the stat spread will be something akin to 18 Str, 12 dex, 10 con, 23 Int and Wisdom 8 and Charisma 8. And, lets not forget the Con stat here for a character thats supposed to engage in melee, is rather slim.


I don't indulge for a moment the consequences of playing characters with such dump stats in RP, because nobody seems to care in QC discussions about those.

The largest problem with playing an arcane Gish in BGTSCC is that if you don't have good base defences through Int or High BAB to hit your quarry-- without your spells ....you are out of the fight completely. You can't survive or kill to save your life. You can't rest for a DM encounter or some other reason, and are sitting with a squishy wizard with a sword. Now, if you want to reapply all your self buffs, that means you need duplicate spells, which will again take away from your damage output for the lack of spells.

Bladesinger has to compliment their fighting with spellcasting for full effect, in particular damage. Their High AC is needed, because they are squishy. The longer a fight persist, because you are not killing them fast enough, you are wittled down to death.(Or Crit to death, since HP is in general abysmal for these chars) And HP, AC and BAB for boss characters are pretty high for Bgstcc in general, especially with DM created monsters. You can't kill em or hit em with a sword, you can only kill em with spell. You can only kill em through spell, you might as well have rolled an archmage but HP's are pretty scaled hiiiigh on this server.

Now what I am personally worried for, and it was a weakness in the making of the class originally in pnp...is Str for longswords and Dex for Rapiers. How does this scale later on for damages/defences? I seem to recall rapiers was heavily favoured because Dex gave additional AC. However longsword is a pretty signature weapon in this case for both Bladesinger and Elves, and I have seen some DM's in their campaigns allowed this class to make a longsword finessable, or at least gave reason for versatility for the weapon. Though here, we're able to two hand a longsword, which would be favourable if used in conjunction with Combat Insight Epic feat, that requires Epic Prowess additionally. Two Epic feats already reserved to make use proper of a blade.

[Valefort]

By base I meant unbuffed, not straight at level 1, you can just start with 16 STR and 16-18 INT on a sun elf without min maxing that much.

That said :

1. RP cannot be controlled so min/maxed corner cases have to be checked
2. STR bladesingers are inferior to DEX/INT ones, consider this one : http://nwn2db.com/build/?260521

[Mallore]

Make a bard and say your a blade singer.


Seriously. Who's gonna question the rp? Is it exact. Is it perfect? No, but hey a creative person can pull it off and it has more similiarites to a creative mind.


I know it's a silly idea. But I'm sure someone out there can make it work.

[Tantive]

Its not particularly the practioner who sings, but the blades themselves as they cut through the air. Though some seem to hum hauntingly along with the craft, that with bardic traditions, I'de argue they'd go for a spellsinger combination.

[Mallore]

Its not particularly the practioner who sings, but the blades themselves as they cut through the air. Though some seem to hum hauntingly along with the craft, that with bardic traditions, I'de argue they'd go for a spellsinger combination.

Hehe. True


But really who's gonna argue your rp if you say "it's my blade singing not me". Because I'm a blade singer.

We are an rp server so why not.

I'm just looking for solutions to help.

[chad878262]

Honestly I'm not sure how many people would actually play a bladesinger on our server with dispels being what they are. They get some pretty nice benefits so CL 5/10 seems right, but in Valefort's example he ends at CL 23 which is no longer a reliable gish in any area with dispels. Even a regular dispel (as in not greater) has a 10% chance to dispel, so at level 30 just walking to an epic area could end up stripping a few buffs. Now, once in an epic area each Greater Dispel has a 35% chance to dispel each buff. Let's say conservatively you have 10 buff spells active...4-5 of them got dispelled in one cast. In my eyes a class so reliant on buffs can't really afford such a low caster level. I suppose you could wear a +4 Mithral Breastplate, +4 dodge/deflection/natural items so you are less reliant on buffs for defense, but honestly you still really don't want Deez's/Shield to come down, or your mirror images, or your DR protection cuz you are squishy... I suppose one could treat it like dragon slayer and go W13/EK10/BS7, but not sure that is going to be competitive with a dragonslayer build to be honest... the SB insightful strike really helps the damage of the build.

What would be the benefit of creating a new PRC that isn't really strong enough that players will be willing to utilize the work put in to making such a class?

[thids]

What would be the benefit of creating a new PRC that isn't really strong enough that players will be willing to utilize the work put in to making such a class?

Then make it strong enough?