Suggestion: Double Rest Timer Cooldown for Overall Balance

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NegInfinity
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Re: Suggestion: Double Rest Timer Cooldown for Overall Bala

Unread post by NegInfinity »

Steve wrote:Well, yeah...but I had a secret hope that a more simple, direct and very little time consuming option might create a fundamental change...for the Good of game play.
"good gameplay" is subjective, and essentiaully you're simply attempting to make your preferences happen server-wide and affect everybody whether they like it or not. That's not the right idea. The server is supposed to accomodate for large variety of gameplay types. In turn those peopel will be providing characters to interact with.

If you want challenge, you could self-impose it on your own character. For example, "rest is 8 irl hours", "never buy anything from shops", "vow of poverty" and "vow of non-violence".
Steve wrote: I admit, I could be wrong! But I do truly believe a situation of 24/7 Buffed Life 4 Ever is probably a bad thing, in general, in terms of mechanical balance.
Plenty of defensive spells last for hours and will remain active regardless of rest timer.
Likewise it is possible to make energizer bunny builds that can keep going and going and going for weeks without ever resting. Some of those builds will be offensive casters.
Tsidkenu wrote:While the OP has been driven off track by a discussion of Blaster spellcasting, aren't we all forgetting that Bugsidian, in their infinite wisdom, not only decided to maximise PC hitpoint rolls but NPCs too? And BG mob design bloats it even more just to make certain areas a 'challenge'. That's why no-one plays a non-warlock blaster, because there's not really any point to wasting all your spells just to kill 1 guy.
Now THAT is something I'd love to see fixed.
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Re: Suggestion: Double Rest Timer Cooldown for Overall Bala

Unread post by kleomenes »

Tsidkenu wrote:While the OP has been driven off track by a discussion of Blaster spellcasting, aren't we all forgetting that Bugsidian, in their infinite wisdom, not only decided to maximise PC hitpoint rolls but NPCs too? And BG mob design bloats it even more just to make certain areas a 'challenge'. That's why no-one plays a non-warlock blaster, because there's not really any point to wasting all your spells just to kill 1 guy.
I do have to say, my blaster sorcerer could just about solo Frost Giants (not the king) for loot running. He is pretty well geared for a sorcerer though, however I was pleasantly surprised while levelling him just how effective his blasting was.

ASOC made a big difference of course. But it was a viable build I found, especially in party play.
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Steve
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Re: Suggestion: Double Rest Timer Cooldown for Overall Bala

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Sun Wukong wrote:Make it, learn to play it, and witness how few dispells there are today.
That build gets 49 AC max, and only if another Toon casts the final buffing spells, because your Build doesn't have enough UMD pts to get the good spells off scrolls. Even 49 AC is weak, these days, on BGTSCC.

And speaking of dispels, now that you've mentioned there are so few...I FULLY EXPECT Le Valefort to change that up! Hi Vale, you listening?!?
Sun Wukong wrote:Not to mention that a caster ain't going to fling a dispel to a target it cannot see.
Maybe you would be able to outfit that build with enough sneak gear to support never being detected while HiPSing around, but...then your AC is going to take even a bigger dip, and your gear for ability enhancements.

Plus, in case you haven't noticed, the new AI for mobs is actually learning how to wait up on casting dispels, learning from Players how to make the most of the mobs spellbook. So awesome!

Granted, your build that you post is pretty darn good, and if I had a mind to play a min/maxed thing like that, I would like to try it out for LOLZ. But it still will not compare to a caster-gish, in terms of what mechanical output one can get. And better yet with a caster-gish, I do not have to worry about sinking tons of coin into the build in order to make it perfect to kill the Balor.
Sun Wukong wrote:Edit: and if you must have slightly higher saves, you can always drop Weapon Master for Divine Champion and free a feat or two to be spent to improve your lowest saves.
When you immediately add another option to your supposed wicked perfect build, then...I have to wonder if you doubt yourself!! ;)

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Re: Suggestion: Double Rest Timer Cooldown for Overall Bala

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

Steve wrote:That build gets 49 AC max, and only if another Toon casts the final buffing spells, because your Build doesn't have enough UMD pts to get the good spells off scrolls. Even 49 AC is weak, these days, on BGTSCC.
I got to AC of 50 before considering any outside buffs.

10 (Base)
+14 (Mithral Chain Shirt with +4 Bracers)
+8 (+4 Tower Shield)
+4 (Natural Armor Amulet)
+4 (Dodge Boots)
+4 (Deflection item)
+3 (Tumble)
+3 (Combat Expertise)
= 50 (51 if you count that dodgy Dodge feat.)

Now the thing is, you do not need the AC in all areas, you switch equipment in and out as needed.
Steve wrote:Maybe you would be able to outfit that build with enough sneak gear to support never being detected while HiPSing around, but...then your AC is going to take even a bigger dip, and your gear for ability enhancements.
And as I said, you use right equipment in the right situation. With high enough stealth you can lure and bait mobs to come after you one by one, and singular mobs are always easier to handle even with lower AC.
Steve wrote:Plus, in case you haven't noticed, the new AI for mobs is actually learning how to wait up on casting dispels, learning from Players how to make the most of the mobs spellbook. So awesome!
Looks like potatoes to me still.
Steve wrote:Granted, your build that you post is pretty darn good, and if I had a mind to play a min/maxed thing like that, I would like to try it out for LOLZ. But it still will not compare to a caster-gish, in terms of what mechanical output one can get. And better yet with a caster-gish, I do not have to worry about sinking tons of coin into the build in order to make it perfect to kill the Balor.
Gold? I do not know about you, but it just keeps piling up for me, faster than what I can get rid of it. And it is not like I am actually playing all that much these days.
Steve wrote:When you immediately add another option to your supposed wicked perfect build, then...I have to wonder if you doubt yourself!! ;)
Or you could recall how I dislike the Weapon Master as a class. It requires so many dead feats, and does nothing but grant +1 AB when you are up against something with a critical hit immunity. Not to mention how you did complain about the saves, so I am simply offering alternatives from the top of my head.
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Steve
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Re: Suggestion: Double Rest Timer Cooldown for Overall Bala

Unread post by Steve »

I probably lament about Saves as much as I do about getting Dispelled. Hi M3nt!!!

Nonetheless, Rest-a-bilty, as it stands currently, gives buffed up casters and gishes all the freedom in the world to be 24/7 up, even if just an evening around ye olde campfire.

Since buffs (magic) is always higher in application than standard gear, a caster/gish can always reach mechanical power above the non-caster (goes for divine or arcane versions).

If casting/buffing is always more powerful, and if we talk of Balance for mechanics, would not less-than-24/7 be warranted, in terms of power capabilities?

So that, in the end of a change such as this, Characters can be build upon frames of more power/less time or less power/more time. Or, for player happiness sake, we can just keep it at all power/all time!!

Why rock the boat, right? 0:)
Last edited by Steve on Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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aaron22
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Re: Suggestion: Double Rest Timer Cooldown for Overall Bala

Unread post by aaron22 »

ok. to make this very clear. every mob that has the capability to cast dispel will if they see on your character sheet that it would be effective. that is no small amount of mobs out there. and they will cast it at your feet instead of direct. if you are running around on a CL30 toon you will never see a dispel. if you toss a stoneskin from gargoyle boots on that same toon you will get dispelled pretty fast. if you can stay at long range (bow/xbow) then UMD cast at epic levels will last longer. oh and if your sneak isnt above 70 then more mobs will see you then you might think.

i do not like that build Sun. I think that would be a frustrating build to play in epics trying to get more than 15xp/kill. and to "play it safly" that would be slow kill rate. good build, but NOT the end all of builds by any means.
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NegInfinity
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Re: Suggestion: Double Rest Timer Cooldown for Overall Bala

Unread post by NegInfinity »

Sun Wukong wrote:[

10 (Base)
+14 (Mithral Chain Shirt with +4 Bracers)
+8 (+4 Tower Shield)
+4 (Natural Armor Amulet)
+4 (Dodge Boots)
+4 (Deflection item)
+3 (Tumble)
+3 (Combat Expertise)
= 50 (51 if you count that dodgy Dodge feat.)
If you're talking builds...

Shadowdancer has 19 dex requirement.

If you're planning to actually sneak anywhere, then you need sneak gear and sneak skill of 76+. Sneak gear that does not cost 400k per piece only grants you +2 AC. And even then you'll be at disadvantage, because you will not be able to use sneak daggers.

Meaning, your sneaky frezerker will be squishy, and will have very low ab to benefit from IPA, and will ahve hard time sneaking.
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Re: Suggestion: Double Rest Timer Cooldown for Overall Bala

Unread post by aaron22 »

and you cant use EIPA and CE at the same time.
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NegInfinity
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Re: Suggestion: Double Rest Timer Cooldown for Overall Bala

Unread post by NegInfinity »

aaron22 wrote:and you cant use EIPA and CE at the same time.
When somebody takes both IPA and ICE, it means they'll turn them on off depending on combat situation. Basically either you turtle with a shield and ICE on to outlast a strong opponent, or you dish out damage with IPA and two-handed weapon.
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Re: Suggestion: Double Rest Timer Cooldown for Overall Bala

Unread post by Flasmix »

As someone who has a low CL level 30, I see dispels all the time. I practically have to fight unbuffed for the majority of ventures or have other people buff me. Increasing the amount of dispels will be exceptionally annoying and an increased rest timer would be even worse.

Granted, if there was unlimited resting allowed inside of Inns, guild halls and specific areas, I could see it being increased and might actually make some things better.

There have been many times where I rest, buff up and attempt to go through an area and encounter a beholder type monster with one of those anti-magic eyes and suddenly bye bye every buff. Leaving me defenseless for a good 15-20 minutes! At least with unlimited resting inside of certain areas, I can walk or teleport there instead of sitting AFK until I can rest again.
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Re: Suggestion: Double Rest Timer Cooldown for Overall Bala

Unread post by Sapper Woody »

I play a Gish. A standard arcane Gish build, 10wiz/10EK/10DS. I have a CL of 29, and I use extend spell for my min/level buffs. Even though I am STR based, and so have a limited number of spell slots, I have backup non-extend spells of my min/level buffs.

My point is, I can go 87 minutes without having to rest. So, increasing the rest timer does nothing to solve your imagined problem, but simply creates more problems. It doesn't hurt my character. It only hurts blasters, merchants and merchant's customers. It also makes lower levels that much harder to level, hindering new players to the server.

So, increasing the timer doesn't balance anything. It just makes it less fun for some.

Now, I called your concern an "imagined problem". My build is, subjectively, the most powerful arcane gish build. With a CL of 29, STR to match a fighter, BAB of 25. I can solo a lot of epic content, like the serpent queen and the black dragon.

You know who else can do the same thing? Any level 30 monk. Or dragon druid. Or a properly built fighter. Or paladin/x. Or a thaumaturge. Many FS builds. Some EDM clerics. Some barbarian builds. Several Warlock Builds.

So, the only people nerfed by your proposition are the ones who already can't solo the content. In effect, you're widening the gap between power builds and non-power builds. You are actually adding to the power creep, rather than diminishing it by your suggestion.

Someone had the idea of removing the rest timer and allowing resting only in certain areas, like an inn. I think this a decent idea, personally. But again, it wouldn't affect me. It would only affect those who are already less powerful.
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Re: Suggestion: Double Rest Timer Cooldown for Overall Bala

Unread post by Hoihe »

Sapper Woody wrote:I play a Gish. A standard arcane Gish build, 10wiz/10EK/10DS. I have a CL of 29, and I use extend spell for my min/level buffs. Even though I am STR based, and so have a limited number of spell slots, I have backup non-extend spells of my min/level buffs.

My point is, I can go 87 minutes without having to rest. So, increasing the rest timer does nothing to solve your imagined problem, but simply creates more problems. It doesn't hurt my character. It only hurts blasters, merchants and merchant's customers. It also makes lower levels that much harder to level, hindering new players to the server.

So, increasing the timer doesn't balance anything. It just makes it less fun for some.

Now, I called your concern an "imagined problem". My build is, subjectively, the most powerful arcane gish build. With a CL of 29, STR to match a fighter, BAB of 25. I can solo a lot of epic content, like the serpent queen and the black dragon.

You know who else can do the same thing? Any level 30 monk. Or dragon druid. Or a properly built fighter. Or paladin/x. Or a thaumaturge. Many FS builds. Some EDM clerics. Some barbarian builds. Several Warlock Builds.

So, the only people nerfed by your proposition are the ones who already can't solo the content. In effect, you're widening the gap between power builds and non-power builds. You are actually adding to the power creep, rather than diminishing it by your suggestion.

Someone had the idea of removing the rest timer and allowing resting only in certain areas, like an inn. I think this a decent idea, personally. But again, it wouldn't affect me. It would only affect those who are already less powerful.
Firstly,

Keep the rest timer, BUT, make it possible to rest an INFINITE amount of times in succession (i.e: no effective rest timer) when inside an inn or a designated wilderness rest zone.

We already have the technology. Before the Amn-Gate war blew up Beregost, you could purchase a key from Sam Feldepost and rest. Resting consumed the key.

Secondly,

Sapper Woody, who plays the powerful GISH build has 87 minutes to go without having to rest.

I play something that I prefer to call "Magic Warrior" over "gish", where I do my damnedest to avoid having to cast spells only for them to be dispelled 24/7 or run out during DM events - instead saving them for debuffs and steroids, maybe with a few hour/cl spells. Shield is the exception, but usually I don't need it.

Or didn't need to need it before someone decided 45 AC is no longer the ideal but 9001 is the absolute minimum, with compulsory Mirror image and displacement. *cough CR 15 area that has a mob with 27 AB that deals 10+ damage, an on-hit effect, with high amount of attacks/round*


So debuffs, steroids and blasts. I save on these until the server itself deems it worthy to spawn me a large number of spawns because I consider the act of running around and gathering spawns to cast a burst spell to be metagaming (but that's just me). For most stuff, I chip away at with 16-24 damage melee strikes to whittle down their infinite HP that's been given to compensate for the WM/FB and whatever other instakill builds so they no longer instakill stuff.

Even with how much I try to save on my spells, I run out of them WAY before your targeted power-gish of Reineke even flinches. Stuff has a lot of AC so needs it debuffed. Stuff does lot of damage so needs it debuffed. Stuff keeps rolling 20s so I need a mirror image steroid. CR 15 stuff decides to have 27 AB or other delicious things (best being a 33 AB troll that Valefort told me has a 0.37% chance of happening. Happened to me frequently enough to give up and stop trying. I should play the anti-lottery I guess.)

So who gets screwed over? That person who is barely holding on to having any PvE enjoyment of this server. Who laughs? The people targeted.
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Re: Suggestion: Double Rest Timer Cooldown for Overall Bala

Unread post by Hawke »

I agree with SapperWoody, just because they are right about the rest timers in relation to buffs.

I dont have a level 30, but I have one in their 20s, and several below that who are casters. Like Woody, I have my extended buffs, but I also keep a couple non extend in reserve for the "break glass" moments. Because if I am lazy, I can last with just extend buffs at level 20, for 120 minutes (I do full buff x3 in my spell book). Then another 20 minutes from my backups.

If I mess up my spell list and rest, does it suck I have to wait a LONG time to do it again? Sure does. But I get it. I get the rest timers, totally understand them and accept them.

Doing unlimited rests inside an inn, awesome!

Unlimited rests at an outside campsite? No. Never. I completely disagree.

Do blasters get a raw deal here in the multiplayer setting? Yes they do. But such is the way of things.


Anyways, those are my coppers thrown into the pot.
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Re: Suggestion: Double Rest Timer Cooldown for Overall Bala

Unread post by aaron22 »

Hoihe wrote:Stuff keeps rolling 20s so I need a mirror image steroid.
MI wont help you there. try DR.

even with what Hoihe says, the PvE is easy. i run totally weird builds and can still make it.

BTW.. a WM/FB still kills on the first flurry. even some of the higher HP pool ones. basic trolls have about 500HPs. a 22ish WM/FB can land >500 in an opening flurry often enough. but there is a sacrifice. saves are not always up to par and AC suffers. you really need to deal it out in that build to survive and that is sometimes not enough. its the same but reversed for the 70AC SS builds. they just have a super hard time getting mobs down and it can take "too long" and things go downhill.

i feel like hoihe you make commoner class toons and try to turn them into heroes. you are allowed to build whatever you want and run it, but do not expect the server to cater to your desire to have your commoners kill the snake queen. or even get to her. try to optimized inside your RP. but if you know you are building a POS do not complain when it turns into a POS.
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Re: Suggestion: Double Rest Timer Cooldown for Overall Bala

Unread post by Sapper Woody »

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Hoihe wrote:Firstly,

Keep the rest timer, BUT, make it possible to rest an INFINITE amount of times in succession (i.e: no effective rest timer) when inside an inn or a designated wilderness rest zone.

We already have the technology. Before the Amn-Gate war blew up Beregost, you could purchase a key from Sam Feldepost and rest. Resting consumed the key.

Secondly,

Sapper Woody, who plays the powerful GISH build has 87 minutes to go without having to rest.

I play something that I prefer to call "Magic Warrior" over "gish", where I do my damnedest to avoid having to cast spells only for them to be dispelled 24/7 or run out during DM events - instead saving them for debuffs and steroids, maybe with a few hour/cl spells. Shield is the exception, but usually I don't need it.

Or didn't need to need it before someone decided 45 AC is no longer the ideal but 9001 is the absolute minimum, with compulsory Mirror image and displacement. *cough CR 15 area that has a mob with 27 AB that deals 10+ damage, an on-hit effect, with high amount of attacks/round*


So debuffs, steroids and blasts. I save on these until the server itself deems it worthy to spawn me a large number of spawns because I consider the act of running around and gathering spawns to cast a burst spell to be metagaming (but that's just me). For most stuff, I chip away at with 16-24 damage melee strikes to whittle down their infinite HP that's been given to compensate for the WM/FB and whatever other instakill builds so they no longer instakill stuff.

Even with how much I try to save on my spells, I run out of them WAY before your targeted power-gish of Reineke even flinches. Stuff has a lot of AC so needs it debuffed. Stuff does lot of damage so needs it debuffed. Stuff keeps rolling 20s so I need a mirror image steroid. CR 15 stuff decides to have 27 AB or other delicious things (best being a 33 AB troll that Valefort told me has a 0.37% chance of happening. Happened to me frequently enough to give up and stop trying. I should play the anti-lottery I guess.)

So who gets screwed over? That person who is barely holding on to having any PvE enjoyment of this server. Who laughs? The people targeted.
At first I thought you were arguing against me. But you're actually saying the same thing I am, that it wouldn't affect the very people that it would be targeting, but would affect others, widening the gap in power, instead of diminishing it.
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