100% Optional Permadeath Mode

[Reckeo]

I'm also strongly against the idea of trying to force permadeath on the entire server. Just because a handful of you might think it's a great idea doesn't mean everyone else will be thrilled at the concept. If you want your hardcore experience, you can already have it. You don't need the server to enforce it for you.

I completely agree.. In fact, if they so want, they can just self-enforce it.
Dying 3 times, delete the character - simple.

or maybe i can just role play that we are actually not on the prime but actually a perverse illusion of archeron. it explains why i can kill the same monsters again and again and why that guy i just chopped the head off of and fed to trolls is somehow back at the merchant telling me how tough he is.

simple.

i would say that sure, we should just roleplay completely different aspects of life and death. but doesnt that just get us further from good?

That is where role play courtesy comes into play. Both players would have to be in agreement to the terms of the PvP or whatever, and that takes maturity. The player that loses shouldn't even be around your character for awhile, whether its a couple days RL what have you. If they are, wear a hood or something as a cool off timer, and most definitely NOT engage in an open area where they could confront you and brag about 'how tough' they are (nor should you encourage any type of taunt or bragging in the presence of that character, let the experience lie within itself). That would be poor implementation on the loser, or rubbing it in as the winner. They can still play the game, the end doesn't have to be the 'end end', but to blatantly and openly act like that after an encounter like that is poor sportsmanship and poor role play, in my opinion. Certain things need to be left 'open ended' and 'unanswered' in order for there to be a level of agree-ability and maintain interest and free-play community wise.

I understand the inherent desire for some players to wish to implement an enforceable sense of mortality as a proposed suggestion for resolving and managing some of the poor role play experiences they have had as a result of death not being permanent.

I also think it's an attempt to resolve the issue of some players being incapable of displaying in game respect towards other peoples depiction of the role play environment.

Successful role-play requires patience, respect, and understanding (without enforcing necessary permanent consequences of death server wide).

It's a community role play maturity issue, not one that can be resolved through mechanically forcing perma-death. I too get irked sometimes with the level of EGO (meaning grandiose identity significance, not the Freudian sense) some players place in their characters as being some sort of 'center of the universe' significance. I never liked that being shoe-horned into video games like Fallout or Skyrim either, which is why I chose to heavily mod those games and diminish (but not fully eliminate because its nearly impossible) the sense of singular significance my 'heroes' play, in order to experience playing a character that's a 'part' of the world, as opposed to being the center of it, like most JRPG experiences.

Mechanically implementing perma-death is relatively easy. Encouraging mature, respectful role play is a much more difficult war to wage.

[NegInfinity]

I don't know if you realize this - Forgotten Realms is a high magic setting, and deaths

And deaths can be permanent, when your character does something very stupid.

A well-rounded character is protected from mary sueism.

But why should I make a well rounded character who has the possibility of acquiring the desired trait when chances are, the moment that character becomes fun I lose her?

I might as well maximise my time spent RPing and just create mass produced variants of "CENTRAL TRAIT" + peripheries.

The issue here is that ideas you're trying to operate on are purely theoretical and not based on reality.

My suggestion would be to take the whole system you came up with, and toss it away. If you want to play based on this system, feel free, but it feels completely unrelated to real state of affairs.

Other people play differently and do not conform to system of values you've come up with. "Well Rounded"? "Central Trait"? Army of clone characters? Where's fun in that?

The point is that worthwile achievment requires a risk. If there were no risk, the achievement does not feel worthwhile. The fun is in overcoming obstackles and not keeping "my preciousssss" character safe from harm. The fun is in taking combination that is not well rounded, unbalanced and has holes in defence and then figuring out what the character is capable of, seeing it become powerful. The fun is overcoming danger that CAN kill your character for real, because this one makes you really think what to do and how to approach. The fun is overcoming challenge. A chance of losing character for good is part of the challenge.

If you are not familiar with this approach.... you're missing out a lot of fun.

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Either way, I have stuff to do.

[Incarnate]

I don't know if you realize this - Forgotten Realms is a high magic setting, and deaths

And deaths can be permanent, when your character does something very stupid.

I can tell you don't get it. Let me try again.

It doesn't matter how your character dies with the exception of old age - because of the following:

• This is Forgotten Realms.
• Forgotten Realms is a HIGH MAGIC Setting.
• In Forgotten Realms DEATH is REVERSIBLE up to a certain point.

Note: This certain point depends on the limitations of Resurrection or True Resurrection, where True Resurrection could bring character back from the dead, even if the character had been dead for 300 in game years. The only exception is that it can't if the character died from old age. This is based on Forgotten Realms lore and the D&D system.

Permadeath means complete removal of the character, this has the written below effect and it would be counter-intuitive in relation to Forgotten Realms lore and D&D system.

• The characters death CANNOT be reversed which should be possible in Forgotten Realms.

Note: Removing a character from the game would be the equivalent of divine or otherworldly powerful intervention - aKa DM INTERVENTION.

[chad878262]

Even in Forgotten Realms the gods, Ao (the DMs...) can determine if a character cannot be resurrected. Lost in all of the theory crafting on both sides is the rule books are guides and every campaign will have variations, some slight, some major... By the same token, on this server, the DM ruling has been that for Guild infiltration, attacks against certain NPC's or at DM discretion in events perma-strikes can be handed out and lead to perma-death. IC'ly this could be because the gods will no longer allow the PC to be resurrected or whatever, but those are the rules. Thus "up to a certain point" has been defined on this server to mean up to the point that your PC gets their third perma-strike, which frankly if it's happened at all has been so exceedingly rare as to make no difference.

[Sun Wukong]

For any of the raise dead, resurrection, or true resurrection spells to work, the target of the spell must be willing to return to the realm of the living. You could can try to force someone to be raised from the dead, but the unwilling dead gets to make will roll.

The raise dead, resurrection, or true resurrection spells are not of automatic success.

[Hoihe]

For any of the raise dead, resurrection, or true resurrection spells to work, the target of the spell must be willing to return to the realm of the living. You could can try to force someone to be raised from the dead, but the unwilling dead gets to make will roll.

The raise dead, resurrection, or true resurrection spells are not of automatic success.

And the decision to answer and the manner of the answer is up to the player of the character entirely.

[NegInfinity]

I can tell you don't get it.

You tell wrong, and you are the one who don't get it.

Because it is High Magic setting, there are ton of entities which can make sure you won't be ever resurrected.

The most obvious ones are devils. If your souls is theirs, chances are you won't return. There are magic spells that operate on souls, etc.

The reason why mortals can be resurrected at all is because their souls and bodies are separate. However, if your characters soul was processed into soul prism and has been used in baatezu promotion ritual, there's nothing to return back anymore.

Likewise there is a large number of creatures that do not come back from the dead. Outsiders are the most notable example.

And then there are gods. If a god has gotten character's soul as a servant, it is entirely up to that god to decide if character can return or not.

[Incarnate]

Even in Forgotten Realms the gods, Ao (the DMs...) can determine if a character cannot be resurrected. Lost in all of the theory crafting on both sides is the rule books are guides and every campaign will have variations, some slight, some major... By the same token, on this server, the DM ruling has been that for Guild infiltration, attacks against certain NPC's or at DM discretion in events perma-strikes can be handed out and lead to perma-death. IC'ly this could be because the gods will no longer allow the PC to be resurrected or whatever, but those are the rules. Thus "up to a certain point" has been defined on this server to mean up to the point that your PC gets their third perma-strike, which frankly if it's happened at all has been so exceedingly rare as to make no difference.

The up to a certain point was a reference to the spellcaster limitation, because its 10 in game years per casterlevel that the target character may have been dead for it to work.
There only a few limitations to the spell, the above with the casterlevel and it doesn't work those who've died because of old age.

Furthermore, Ao lore-wise don't care about mortals, so that would make ZERO sense. Additionally, it would basically be EVERY Deity and other worldly deity who should want it as you say, and again this doesn't make any sense lore-wise, at all.

Perhaps, the DM's should reconsider that perma-strike thing to work a little bit differently to accomodate that its indeed a high magic setting, where death IS reversible.

For any of the raise dead, resurrection, or true resurrection spells to work, the target of the spell must be willing to return to the realm of the living. You could can try to force someone to be raised from the dead, but the unwilling dead gets to make will roll.

The raise dead, resurrection, or true resurrection spells are not of automatic success.

You're assuming that the target wouldn't want to be brought back.

[Incarnate]

I can tell you don't get it.

You tell wrong, and you are the one who don't get it.

Because it is High Magic setting, there are ton of entities which can make sure you won't be ever resurrected.

The most obvious ones are devils. If your souls is theirs, chances are you won't return. There are magic spells that operate on souls, etc.

The reason why mortals can be resurrected at all is because their souls and bodies are separate. However, if your characters soul was processed into soul prism and has been used in baatezu promotion ritual, there's nothing to return back anymore.

Likewise there is a large number of creatures that do not come back from the dead. Outsiders are the most notable example.

And then there are gods. If a god has gotten character's soul as a servant, it is entirely up to that god to decide if character can return or not.

All of these things, really has to fit RP-wise for it to fit with the context of things, and these are just possible scenarios, which for the most part doesn't fit with the reason why they can't be resurrected lore-wise in context to the actual rp.

Unless the character actually made a pact with devil in regards to his soul, then it would be LORE-BREAKING if suddenly a devil were interfering. From a lore perspective, IF a devil did interfere without a VALID a pact, that character would have the right to a trial. Not to mention the devil in question actually should have an actual RP reason for doing so.

There aren't that many playable outsiders, even they can be resurrected.

Also, in relation to why other entities would have an interest in making sure the character can't be resurrected, primarily based on an OOC-ruling is indeed LORE-BREAKING.

Like I said, you don't get that death can still be impactful without it meaning it has to be permadeath.

[chad878262]

I was being a bit tongue and cheek with the whole Ao/DMs thing. The point was just as there are many ways to bring someone back from the dead, there are also ways to ensure that they DON'T come back from the dead. However, it needs to be stated IC to support the OOC rules I'll leave to you. My only point is that the argument for perma-death being added to the server is moot as it already exists. You can argue to change it, or remove it...I argue that if it were simply enforced more often I think it would be a good middle ground.

[Incarnate]

I was being a bit tongue and cheek with the whole Ao/DMs thing. The point was just as there are many ways to bring someone back from the dead, there are also ways to ensure that they DON'T come back from the dead. However, it needs to be stated IC to support the OOC rules I'll leave to you. My only point is that the argument for perma-death being added to the server is moot as it already exists. You can argue to change it, or remove it...I argue that if it were simply enforced more often I think it would be a good middle ground.

I'm not sure if you've seen this, but I think it makes deaths a lot more impactful WITHOUT it being subject to permadeath as permadeath is now.

There is really no reason why permadeath should exist as it does since you can get resurrected - hence why I suggested a character should be disabled when permadead, and truly be permadead when its either died of old age OR it has effectively been dead at least 300 in-game years. As 300 years would be the limit for PC's to be able to cast the spell and as its 10 years per casterlevel its 300 in-game years.

Furthermore, there could be placed a level penalty for each 10 years that has passed in-game. So, if the character had been dead 10 years it would receiv at least ONE level LOSS that CANNOT be prevented nor restored through any means. Additionaly these values could be tweaked as per DM ruling. So say if it was changed to 1 year per caster level, then it would be a maximum of 30 in game years, and ONE level loss per year being dead. When the maximum amount of in-game years is reached, then it would suffer TRUE Permadeath.

...where the only TRUE means of restoring a character after this would be divine intervention aKa DM Intervention, not just DM Assistance, which is completely different. DM intervention would be the equivalent of a Deity or other Powerful entity that was capable of such intervention.

This is a good middleground and would make deaths alot more impactful and meaninful.
I'm not for permadeath, but with this, death would be INTERACTABLE & REVERSIBLE.

This captures the essence that you'd experience in a traditional PnP D&D, and at the same time it makes death and the rp around it a lot more immersive, in a non-game-breaking way.

[NegInfinity]

Furthermore, there could be placed a level penalty for each 10 years that has passed in-game.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but the time on the server is moving at real life speed. One IRL year == one in-game year, despite one day having 4 sunrises this way.

So, by 2028, you'll lose one level. That's awfully generous "penalty". Assuming that Bgtscc will be still around by that time, the world would be at 1364 - past the beginning of time of troubles so losing one level would be the least of your concerns.

If you want a penalty for late resurrection, then a decent one would be losing one level per 2..4 hours, with permadeath either after running out of levels or something like 3 days. Due to bg being a videogame. That would be in line with kidnapping rules, I believe.

INTERACTABLE & REVERSIBLE.

At this point I'm about to write off all requests to remove possibility of permadeath as an attempt to create a consequence-free world. I wouldn't agree to something like this and wouldn't enjoy playing in it.

Not sure what sparked the whole "anti-permadeath" campaign, but permastrikes are a thing, even though there were like 2 people total I personally knew who got permakilled by them. I would prefer them to stay, as a way of enforcing consequences in the world.

A world without consequences is meaningless to play in.

[Hoihe]

Furthermore, there could be placed a level penalty for each 10 years that has passed in-game.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but the time on the server is moving at real life speed. One IRL year == one in-game year, despite one day having 4 sunrises this way.

So, by 2028, you'll lose one level. That's awfully generous "penalty". Assuming that Bgtscc will be still around by that time, the world would be at 1364 - past the beginning of time of troubles so losing one level would be the least of your concerns.

If you want a penalty for late resurrection, then a decent one would be losing one level per 2..4 hours, with permadeath either after running out of levels or something like 3 days. Due to bg being a videogame. That would be in line with kidnapping rules, I believe.

INTERACTABLE & REVERSIBLE.

At this point I'm about to write off all requests to remove possibility of permadeath as an attempt to create a consequence-free world. I wouldn't agree to something like this and wouldn't enjoy playing in it.

Not sure what sparked the whole "anti-permadeath" campaign, but permastrikes are a thing, even though there were like 2 people total I personally knew who got permakilled by them. I would prefer them to stay, as a way of enforcing consequences in the world.

A world without consequences is meaningless to play in.

A world may have the most beautiful painting, but if you lack the eyes you'll never tell.

With permanent death, you will lack the eyes.

What started it? The constant attacks on those who seek to play without.

[NegInfinity]

With permanent death, you will lack the eyes.

No.

Character death serves as a frame of the painting, defining its boundaries. Which should be fairly obvious.

What started it? The constant attacks on those who seek to play without.

Actually I believe it started with certain other thread which appeared prior to this one.

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Can moderators maybe axe every post that is not related to the original proposition and discussess unrelated matters?

I would like to see optional permadeath feature, but the way thread is going now, it is going to end up being closed instead.

[BlueAce417]

I'm not as-a-whole against the idea of permadeath; I think lower-level characters would suffer the worst since they all would die super easily and quickly if they are new to the server.

If I can make a suggestion, IF permadeath would be implemented can it be enabled after a certain level? I'd say level 10 cause thats the current 100% RCR setup but that's obviously subject to change.

And for those that are OVER this limit, they would be transported to the Fugue and wait for revival Or these people can be transported to the nexus (where the NPCs would not allow them to enter the land of the living, much like it is already).

My last suggestion: self-revival. There was a server I played on called Forgotten Realms (in 2012) where THEIR Fugue's demons would revive them for a trade. Now on their server there were SOULS you could collect. Turning these souls to these demons would revive you at your corpse as well as shift your alignment -10 towards Evil per instance. Of course, this is favoring evil characters and to balance it out, there could be a GOOD means but I can't think of one that would make sense. Unless of course Wishstones were implemented with a use in the Fugue to revive yourself? It would also make sense for the demons to pose a deal while they are in the living world, probably carrying out something sinister or collecting a soul of some NPC before the server reset (meaning they would still be considered dead but now on a time limit). Doing THIS would be what an EXP hit should be attached to since it's temporary yet still a deal for solidifying revival.

As for people with no means of revival in-hand. They can choose to remain dead until -as mentioned above- revived through a ritual with DM Approval. However these dead players should also be able to choose to RCR their character as well as place their items in a storage so they can create a new hero (no getting around it, everyone's going to be salty about dying).

This very last part isn't a suggestion, but currently (as I'm lead to believe) the only thing you CAN do while you are dead is wait or suffer the exp hit. I doubt there would be an afterlife area for RP as it would put more stress on the server. I mean, it would be kind of interesting to play in a Limbo-environment where death beyond death is meaningless. But I'm pretty sure people would just impatiently fight each other while waiting to be revived into the living world.