Taking Another Whack at Surface Evil RP. Who Wants In?

[Tekill]

So we are up to ten players that have shown at least the mildest of interest, so far. That should be enough to start The Murder Hobo Gang. I am going to soon send a group Private Message to these Terrible Ten, and basically Shanghai everyone that has expressed even the mildest curiosity so far. Naturally, you can duck out at any time – just send me a PM.

Oh and more are welcome- PM me or post here; which ever.

Next step is to break down a basic synopsis or theme of this experiment. I am going to keep it very simple and I will generalize a lot. From there you can take the vague goals and apply them to your own goals. Try to blend them. If we do this it should work. Playing it loose to start to let you all create.

As all the wise players on this thread have posted, one good piece of advice I want to repeat is to create your character first, and then create a gang member second. Think about your religion(s), ambitions, motives, vices, habits, obsessions, compulsions, delusions etc., first and foremost.
Then secondly think how all these things will affect your character by joining a 'crew'.

We have different levels and different time zones but lets try and make it work. Most of us appear to be closing in on epic levels. Not to discount lowbies, they are totally welcome and useful- and in fact had the best chance to develop and grow.

Closer to the weekend I will shoot off that PM with the crews theme.

[Necromantis]

Oh, this again. I've had...

I don't want to sound like an arse here, but honestly a guild that relies on DM bones to be alive, isn't doing very well at all. Guilds get attention by taking initiative to doing things without DMs. Make up a reason to go kill some high end boss every now and then (gathering balor blood for DAAARK RITUALZZZZ?). Create player-driven events to promote the guild (public hanging of a made-up level 1 character played by some willing player?).

This isn't unique to evil guilds. It happens to absolutely all guilds - good, evil, neutral, morally irrelevant.

I said 'Guild involvement' as a broad spectrum. There's been so many betrayals and departures, there's hardly anything left to build upon. And those that do stick around hardly have an interest to go kill the same thing -once again-, or are simply around at different times. I'm doing my best to pick up the pieces, but I can only do so much when people don't have the patience or persistence to put up with difficulties. Especially when I only see them online once in a blue moon.

Sent you guys a pm ...gotta be over a week ago now but deleted it recently, figuring you guys weren't active anymore. Had another pc asking about Zhents too. Told him to use the forum as well. Haven't seen him on since last week.

We've recently had a transfer of leadership (who, while I respect(ed) their ideals concerning the guild, wasn't exactly an organizational prodigy, and barely ever used the forums). I've been catching up with a backlog of messages, cleaning up the Zhentarim forum section from seven year old threads, all the while trying to juggle showing my face with my personal time schedule. My apologies if you feel your message was overlooked, and I've sent you (to Danzaki, and now you) a return message a while before reading and responding to this, with a request towards your timezone and playtime, to arrange a meeting.

I hope this hasn't taken away from your experience on the server, and I'm looking forward to seeing you in-game!

I've played evil almost exclusively throughout my nwn2 career and I can't stress blowuup's point enough. Get to know your partners in crime better, their worries and ambitions. Set time aside for bonding with eachother. Bash a bugbear's skull in and have a laugh about it, or grab a beer together- doesn't matter. Whatever you do, don't just let your faction/group RP devolve to sterile meetings and briefings every other week.

I agree with this whole-heartedly, I've seen this be a problem for a long time, and am finally in a position to -really- change that for the Zhentarim.

[ShineDown]

We've recently had a transfer of leadership (who, while I respect(ed) their ideals concerning the guild, wasn't exactly an organizational prodigy, and barely ever used the forums). I've been catching up with a backlog of messages, cleaning up the Zhentarim forum section from seven year old threads, all the while trying to juggle showing my face with my personal time schedule. My apologies if you feel your message was overlooked, and I've sent you (to Danzaki, and now you) a return message a while before reading and responding to this, with a request towards your timezone and playtime, to arrange a meeting.

I hope this hasn't taken away from your experience on the server, and I'm looking forward to seeing you in-game!

No, please don't take it as a negative. I honestly thought the guild was inactive as some I have messaged in the past. I'm glad the Zhents are still active. Good guys need evil guys just like evil needs good too or this would be a boring server.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

PvP is entertaining but a drop in the bucket of memorable events in comparison of quality RP, such as intrigue plots that take time. I play evil aligned characters that tend to act and behave as though what they do is for good, some that bite the hand that feeds, ends justify means, etc, etc. I've lost as many fights as I've won but the ones that mattered were the quality of the fallout to lead them in either continuously destructive paths like Rokh (Failures within Flaming Fist overthrow in 2008-2009, Siege of Candlekeep and later Guide Protector, B/Amn War as a spy, Seer plot as the 'Mule' that "accidentally" killed the Crimmor refugees) by design, or with their fingers dipped in everyone's cookie jar like Mizzrym obscenely successful influences to bring pieces to be pushed together that favors an outcome of one of her interests. Play your evil aligned character as though they have an actual life to live, not as PvP bait that'll get a new name on the next RCR.

That was the sort of thing I looked for when DMing for newbies to the server.

Guild heads do have to recognize that there is actual work involved, and be prepared to take a much more proactive throw at it. Northern Watch for example uses a method for rotating RP and plot around individual stories and goals, giving player characters something to be a part of than a weekly DM summary. This has turned out successful, if a bit interrupted at times for other venues. Use your imagination and don't look at everything as a hindrance, including the past.

[Tekill]

It is a lot of work keeping a faction afloat. IMO it is even harder for evil factions. I have been trying to avoid it as long as possible. Even with The Murder Hobo Gang- it is small and not a real official faction so, I am sort of hoping we can all act as leaders. Taking charge when the need arises. *crosses fingers*
I am determined to see the experiment through though, so I will step up to keep things going.

Personally I have been focusing on the more overtly evil RP ((don't even think Saturday morning cartoon villains!)) on this server and how to encourage it. But I can see how important the intrigue and infiltration RP is, especially from reading some of the posts here. So I guess you need both at the same time. You can not really have one without the other. I don't think the other aligned factions have to worry about this balance as much. I think this should be a simple but big take away here.

Yes, I think you have to build a bond or friendships with the other players, especially if you are going to trust each other while committing nefarious deeds in each others presence. There has to be a reason for us all to get together to begin with, and I have tried and failed to do it the naturally and organically way. Maybe some of us can organically meet and get to know one another in game and start building bonds of brother/sisterhood. But the reality is, that sort of thing is rare in life and its rare in game.

So lets give it a bit of an ooc push.

There is a lot of idealism and political correctness, used when discussing how to RP and in more particular how to RP evil alignment and evil factions on this server. We have all discussed and have agreed on some of the extra challenges that evil players/factions face in past threads. We have to keep those extra challenges in mind when we continue our discussion.

[CleverUsername123]

(deleted)

[Tekill]

Mercenaries, spies, grifters, thugs for hire. I could add Burglars, robbers, extortionists, kidnappers, assassins etc.
-What else can we fit in there?

General Opportunists.

It would make good business sense not to prejudge any potential job opportunity.

The members of the crew have to suggest ideas for 'capers'. The rest of us will run with it, reject it, or save said idea for another time.

Ideally we will do our own jobs and as well offer to get hired by others to help with their jobs.

[Rask]

Alcreed and I just rolled some evil characters the other day for fun. Feel free to find us on any time. We decided to play bandit/thug style evil RP rather than big grandoise "destroy the world" sort of evil that you see a lot. We thought it might be more fun to do some lesser evil and get beat up a few times.

[Darkwind]

Alcreed and I just rolled some evil characters the other day for fun. Feel free to find us on any time. We decided to play bandit/thug style evil RP rather than big grandoise "destroy the world" sort of evil that you see a lot. We thought it might be more fun to do some lesser evil and get beat up a few times.

I'm of the opinion that this may be a large part of the reason why other attempts at "evil RP" have either been derailed or simply fallen flat. Why?

Everyone wants to be the Arch-Devil, nobody wants to be the imp. Lesser evils can grow iteratively and organically. When you have grand arch-devil plans and the world, the players, and the DMs don't go along you set yourself up for disappointment. You needn't look farther than this very thread to see evidence of this.

You need to earn your stripes perhaps in some way and your small times plans may grow and morph into world altering events. You generally build from bottom to top. When you declare your 'grand plan' in advance you have already partly failed because you are building top-down which rarely works, and if it does it almost certainly will not work as you envisioned it leading to frustration and disappointment.

I signed onto this endeavor with this very idea of 'growing' into the role and seeing where it leads. A lot of the comments here I can tell are from long time players on this server who are rigidly trapped inside paradigms that cannot shift. "I haven't seen a plan or definition yet..." So what? I'd say that is a net positive not a net negative for every reason I just listed above.

"Big things, have small beginnings..." -David the Android (Fassbender), Prometheus (h/t Lawrence of Arabia)

Here to help...

[Deathgrowl]

I signed onto this endeavor with this very idea of 'growing' into the role and seeing where it leads. A lot of the comments here I can tell are from long time players on this server who are rigidly trapped inside paradigms that cannot shift. "I haven't seen a plan or definition yet..." So what? I'd say that is a net positive not a net negative for every reason I just listed above.

The problem with this is that you'll have a bunch of players making evil characters of extremely different personalities and creeds. They won't have anything really in common except their evil. Some (really most) of them will deny being evil. Some will even claim to be good. Some will want to rule and others will just want to destroy. And yet others again will want to sow chaos more than anything.

I'm not saying this needs to have a serious plan. But it needs direction. It needs something to give people plausible expectations. Otherwise you'll have a lot of conflicting expectations.

[Tekill]

I would like Evil RP on the server to be more organized and connected. So basically this is my stab at organized crime. I do not want to be more descriptive at this point because I want there to be some mystery to the 'crew' for people not involved in it.

We are going to be opportunists. That will be something we will advertise to anyone.

We are not starting big. We are not trying to build an entire mafia all at once. We starting small with your basic criminal crew. Too small in my opinion to even qualify as a faction.

I think if you want to try 'conquer' or 'destroy the world' so be it, all the power to you. You can hire us to help accomplish that as long as it it worth it to us. We will go along, because to us, it is just business.
In character we accept jobs to help your plans for world domination- who cares if they work of fail, as long as we get paid. OOC we are fostering the growth of evil RP.

Your goal may be to destroy or conquer- my goal is to do one shady job at a time.

I am trying to keep it an open concept because people have different perspectives of the same things..more so when they are Roleplaying. My Gargaros Barbarion may join because it is an opportunity to hunt and kill stuff. My Mask rogue may join because it is opportunities for intrigue and deception.

I think if I can just keep things happening, whether its helping other factions or just working on our own schemes, then this should work.

[Steve]

I humbly offer you this to consider, then:

1. Start at Level 1. Have fun growing the individuals and the group, together.
2. Play Lawful (follow the Rules) Evil (no regard for sanctity of Life). You'll be just like any other Character that goes adventuring (and slaughtering mobs)!
3. Find a steady, regular playing time, and show up in that time frame X times per week. By not deviating from a schedule, others will find you and log on to join you (DMs as well...I'd put money on it).

The above is, of course, if you want to start a New Group.

Because already, there exists more than a handful of Evil-minded Groups—many Canon Lore groups—that would, I'd imagine, be very excited to get an influx of RPing Players.

- Pirates/ Roaringshore
- Zhentarim / Darkhold
- Red Wizards / Baldur's Gate
- Drow/Duergar/Orc (Upperdark + Middledark)

[Deathgrowl]

Wrote something with my DM account (everyone should know - I'm deliberately not being anonymous!) without realising and felt like writing it over again with this account! Feels more appropriate.

I'm probably more interested in pirates or the zhentarim right now. Or thayans, although I don't want to play a thayan knight or red wizard, so I'm not sure I'd be able to get involved in any real manner there. I don't really have the energy to put into starting up something new if I'm expected to contribute in the actual formation. It's easier to contribute to RP in something that is established in one way or another.

But I'll first have to see if I can actually make a character concept that think I'll like.

[Darkwind]

The problem with this is that you'll have a bunch of players making evil characters of extremely different personalities and creeds. They won't have anything really in common except their evil.

Extremely different personalities and creeds can group for common purpose. Good characters do this every single day. And if they cannot, they need to find another group to join. Simple as that. again, lots of needless angst hand-wringing for something quite elementary. Many good characters have little in common except their good, same concept.

Some (really most) of them will deny being evil. Some will even claim to be good.

I should hope so! I certainly will. It would be comical not to because other than the overtly Saturday morning cartoon type most people who are evil really don't see themselves that way. You think Hitler or Osama Bin Laden were not 100% convinced of their righteous cause? Unless you want to go for the parody mustache twirler villain, then that is on you. Nuance goes a long way however, and denying your true nature is fundamentally evil at its core.

Some will want to rule and others will just want to destroy. And yet others again will want to sow chaos more than anything.

And? All of that is viable under a big tent ideology. I feel like you are sort of talking around the subject of anti-social griefer types that can be drawn to this, is that what you are saying? Because mature RPers with any of those goals would be viable setups. Griefer / anti-socials are quite easy to deal with because in a group of evil people it is -really- easy to dispense retribution rapidly. If your 'crew' sees you are more of a bane then a boon it is easy enough to make your life miserable until you disappear.

This is why I'm strongly in favor of Steve's Lawful Evil suggestion at least for the majority. An entire group of Chaotic Evil people w/o an iron fist on top of them will quickly descend into anarchy. So you have your baseline of LE types and a few outliers perhaps which won't poison the mix entirely.

As for the 'plan' Tekill has outlined all that is needed. Mercenary company that takes ANY job, and may grow into something bigger than that depending on if it fits well and pays. More complexity than that is again just angst / anxiety / hand-wringing for the sake of. Gotta just ride the river where it takes you and relax a bit.


EDIT:

1. Start at Level 1. Have fun growing the individuals and the group, together.
2. Play Lawful (follow the Rules) Evil (no regard for sanctity of Life). You'll be just like any other Character that goes adventuring (and slaughtering mobs)!
3. Find a steady, regular playing time, and show up in that time frame X times per week. By not deviating from a schedule, others will find you and log on to join you (DMs as well...I'd put money on it).

I don't think I can state strongly enough how much I agree with this. Especially since you are new on the scene. Your reputation, goals, 'plan' (which seems -really important to lots of folks here for I think dubious reasons), etc. will grow with you.

You will naturally bond over time instead of in an forced / injected way as you will have few preconceived notions since you are all 'young' still. It doesn't have to be level 1 but certainly sub-10th would be ideal.

My understanding is that this may not be viable as it sounds like most folks want to be on the top of the power curve but that eliminates half the fun which is the 'journey' IMHO. Again, I'm along for the ride either way but I wanted to publicly state my support for this particular vector to launch this thing.

[Deathgrowl]

I should hope so! I certainly will. It would be comical not to because other than the overtly Saturday morning cartoon type most people who are evil really don't see themselves that way. You think Hitler or Osama Bin Laden were not 100% convinced of their righteous cause? Unless you want to go for the parody mustache twirler villain, then that is on you. Nuance goes a long way however, and denying your true nature is fundamentally evil at its core.

Lets not go into RL moralities.

Dungeons and Dragons and especially Forgotten Realms has very objective morals. The evils know that they are evil (at least if they have like at least 5 in knowledge religion, but even without that, it's easy to know that you are evil). If you play a cleric with the Evil domain, you have picked that domain. If you play a cleric of Vhaeraun, you know that part of his portfolio is "Evil activity on the surface". A blackguard is well aware that he is serving evil. A warrior of darkness isn't a warrior of light. A wizard who casts his animate dead knows that the spell is fundamentally and objectively evil.

Good and Evil aren't "just" concepts of morality in Dungeons and Dragons. They are fundaments of nature.

My wish is to play a character fully aware of this nature of evil. Embracing it unapologetically. Because to me, it's the kind of evil that makes most sense in the Forgotten Realms setting.