Character Death (MvP & PvP/CvC)

[Kiran]

OOC communication is key.

If you cant agree oocly on something, be an adult and realise maybe your rp styles are different and try to avoid murdering one another, permanently or just 24 knockout...

[Hoihe]

Not really. I'd argue that neither type of RP is entirely inclusive of exclusive.

All it take is for non-permadeath players to avoid doing anything that would make pro-permadeath players feel compelled to actively try to murder the non-permadeath player's character.

Likewise, pro-permadeath characters would have to try to avoid interacting with non-permadeath characters in a way that is liable to produce that sort of conflict as well.

If the NWN2 community was bigger than it is, it wouldn't be an issue at the moment. We could have permadeath players on a permadeath server and non-permadeath players on a non-permadeath server. But the community is too small to sustain that right now. So we all just need to find a way to compromise and get along.

Pretty much both groups need to accept that they have to make sacrifices and allowances for the enjoyment of the other.

So, people who don't enjoy permadeath should never play a Good Aligned character. Understood. Very inclusive indeed!


Pro-permadeath people should stop saying those who oppose permadeath are horrible roleplayers of selfinsertism and we'd get along just fine. You lot kill off your characters, it annoys me if I enjoyed that character's RP, but.. meh. Same as if the player quit the server far as I can control it.

But please stop with "I want to be a big evil thing that mutiliates people and tortures them and wants them to have irreversible scars so much so that the char is no longer playable" or "I will sacrifice your soul to lolth, so you can't be resurrected."




You can have plenty of powerful consequences by doing social machinations. You can have someone kicked out of a guild by building dirt on them.

That's way more impressive and fun than stabbing them and then having a corpse nobody ever interacts with.

[Planehopper]

Unlocking. Please speak civilly to one another. We don't all agree on this topic, which is understandable. So make your points with respect and understanding, so that this can remain unlocked.

[Asmodea]

As a hopefully productive kind of thought... there could be 'high danger' and 'low danger' areas of the server?

We have such already in a way in that if a Surface Character goes to the UD or an UD character comes to the Surface everyone knows Perma-Strikes are waaaaaaaay more on the table.

We also have a kind of 'lawless north' in that I think most of the community knows you are more likely to get PvP'd in Soubar or Roaring Shore than Baldur's Gate.

For a while there was access to The Hells on the server which was eventually undone but if done carefully perhaps having areas or sections of 'The Server' that innately increase the Risk/Reward paradigm and Threat of Perma-death? As I said we already kind of do this with such things as 'Drow running around openly in BG are going to get Perma-strikes' without much issue.

[Mursey]

I wholeheartedly agree that there are better ways to take revenge IC than simply killing off another character. But not every vengeful type is that subtle or that intellectuality sophisticated or devious. Sometimes hulk smash really is the only appropriate IC response.

I understand a bit about how anxiety works, being that little devil on your shoulder that tries to tell you that "what they really mean by what they typed is X".Espeicallly in text based conversations with no visual or somatic cues. So let me be as clear as I can:


Non-permadeath RP is not bad RP. It's just a different style of RP from perma-death RP.


But I am struggling to understand how my comments on avoiding interactions where confict is likely to arise between characters whose players have different views on the acceptability of permadeath somehow bars players who don't enjoy permadeath from playing good characters? Nor do I understand the implication (again, I may be picking you up wrong here) that pro-permadeath players tend to play evil characters? Again, that is not an attempt to call you out. I'm not mocking you, I'm trying to understand your viewpoint.

[Mursey]

Asmodae, I like where you are going with that suggestion. However, I suspect some players might the inability to visit such zones and locations safely unfair and see it as limiting their ability to enjoy the full experience the server offers.

[Kaybrie]

I liked an earlier suggestion in this thread about a option to flip on your character during creation.

Like picking an option that made your character more mortal. (Though not just you die you're dead as that person suggested) more of like a Vitality system. Like other servers have implemented in the past.

An example;

Character has 100 points of "vitality" as a gauge or a bar.

On death you'd lose like, 40 points say (just an arbitrary number)

Accumulating more vitality loss leads to a character accumulating injuries in the form of long-term debuffs that can't be cured with magic.

Slowly overtime a character's vitality replenishes itself. (a point every half hour? Again, arbitrary number)

If a character's vitality reaches zero, they're permanently dead.

Could make it a background feat, call it "Mortal Coil" or something.

[Asmodea]

Asmodae, I like where you are going with that suggestion. However, I suspect some players might the inability to visit such zones and locations safely unfair and see it as limiting their ability to enjoy the full experience the server offers.

It already exists in some sense though. I know PCs who are 'under threat of Perma-strike' if they ever go to certain locations. For example: A Zhentarim betrayer wandering into Dark Hold. A Drow entering BG without a mask.

I'm not entirely sure how we could best build upon those while keeping people happy! But it's a start. 'What makes Lore sense' is a big part of it? Maybe?

[Mallore]

:

But please stop with "I want to be a big evil thing that mutiliates people and tortures them and wants them to have irreversible scars so much so that the char is no longer playable" or "I will sacrifice your soul to lolth, so you can't be resurrected."




You can have plenty of powerful consequences by doing social machinations. You can have someone kicked out of a guild by building dirt on them.

That's way more impressive and fun than stabbing them and then having a corpse nobody ever interacts with.

There is actually no difference between mutilating a character and stacking social crud to get a character removed from a guild. Atleast the mutilation can be undo, rp passed or forgotten. Your suggestion as a better alternative is actually far more cruel to a person as you take an aspect of the game away from a player.

Perm death. Life, and consequences for myself always come down to the fun of the other players. In my personal view If at any time anyone considering an option did not pause and think. “Am I making this unfun” they are not a member of a community but instead a vampire on that group. I will always consider another player in my choices and this can be done by staying in character also true to it as well.

I believe if more people considered others we have less worries over all, stronger stories and even intresting deaths.

[Mursey]

I really like both of those suggestions. Maybe as well if we had the option of a "permadeath" toggle or something similar to indicate that your character is willing to inflict permadeath on other characters (and also accept being permadeathed in turn). That way players who wont' accept permadeath will know not to antagonise the tagged characters to the point that they might become mortal enemies.

A heads-up that allows the players involved to make an OOC agreement along the lines of: "I won't kill your character and you won't create a situation where my character would want to kill yours."


It would also allow players who aren't keen on interacting with players who practice once of those two "opposite" play-styles to identify characters they might wish to make an OOC decision to avoid entirely.

I know some players already do put similar warnings in the bios of certain characters. I might start doing the same for my one character (the lawful good one, funnily enough) who might actively seek to kill a rival character IC if pushed far enough. (As an aside: the evil one would ruin a rival socially, financially and politically repeatedly rather limiting themselves to a less satisfying single act of murderous vengeance).

[Steve]

And once more, this is something I, as a person, think is cool. Others dont, and again, that is cool too. We all play the game to have fun. My fun is intrigue, perma killing, real risk/reward and a bit darker roleplay. That is how I relax. I would say I am by default the weird one for it. I understand why people do not enjoy the above. Maybe their life/work is stressful enough and this is just a nice gateway to relax and forget about that kind of stuff.

In the end, just have the curtesy to speak to people ooc before you do sometrhing "life changing" to their char. Understand their opinion and ideas on it. Seek out like minded people for your rp if you cant do the above.

I agree with your position Kiran. We play a game for enjoyment, right? Forcing this or that is usually antithetical to fun.

I am not interested in finding a way to force other characters to have life changing events...unless they want to have them. However, at the same time, life changing events, like DYING (!!!). But that can be...forgotten?!?

Character Death issues are more those seeking High Risk / High Reward. Personally, I'd like to see more of that RP sought out, and more of that RP supported by DMs (if they, as well, enjoy the experience of running those events).

This is the invite.

[Steve]

As a hopefully productive kind of thought... there could be 'high danger' and 'low danger' areas of the server?

Some could probably argue that this can already be manifested in pure RP, decided upon by each and every Player. Just like deciding if your PC experience death or a knockout, when engaging Mobs, or even in PvP situations.

Nonetheless, it is an interesting idea. I actually at one time thought the Upperdark would become such a place (instead of a hyperloop grind area).

I'd say that DM events could provide this high/low danger aspect, would DMs be willing to up the stakes, using role-play, skills, DCs, and to whatever expect necessary some mechanical combat. Risk and Reward, commensurate.

That said, I am a Player that does very much value my Characters, and more so, the RL time I put into their storybuilding, their existence. I'm not looking to cheaply sacrifice them. Nor hoping other Players would do that to their "investments," either. But what I do think is that Players and DMs, together, could craft guidelines toward this end, and create options for some "high danger" experience.

An Epic Death is an Epic Experience!

[InsomnesCanis]

I have seen this done by others and this gets me thinking to assimilate this as well; Players specifying in Examine their preferences to the rules of engagement they enjoy playing. As it's been stated, the community is much too small atm, we need to learn to play together under the same box and allow for others to enjoy their style of play as much as we want to enjoy ours. The way it's described throughout the thread, we are actually in a situation not very different from many LARPs that merge both heavy RPers and heavy action oriented players. And in larps the best solution is always setting expectations for other players and making them something other characters can work with, regardless of how light or heavy the RP actually is.
I believe this little constructive habit will help us understand better who is the player we are about to engage with, what kind of adjustment will this likely to have on the engagement that we want to have and, hopefully, find the place in the middle for both players to have fun and both characters to shine. If this is becomes an encouraged culture we can then avoid a lot of non-fun situations.

As for the discussion as a whole, as it's my first PW server and Lylan be my first character, so im taking a back seat from giving out a strong opinion as for sides.. i would like to enjoy CvC with the rush from the risk of perma, but i feel there needs to be a baseline of respect between the players involved to feel comfortable doing so, which goes a step further then strict adherence to pvp rules. i.e. acknowledge both parties needs of how to enjoy this story.

[Steve]

Some people have suggested in the past that Permastrikes are OOC aspects to the Game, and shouldn't affect Role-play, like in the way setting a PC(s) Hostile is a mechanics function, and not an IC action (which is why RP hostilities need to be communicated IC in order to provide the correct situation for engagement to PvP).

Anyway...my point is that it would seem many Players "fear" Permastrikes, but additionally, as I've touched on above, are not clear on how to RP Permastrikes, and maybe THAT could be better developed into suggested guidelines. Because now, I think maybe Perms COULD be utilized in RP [thus no longer feared, but respected, and capable to be utilized for Role-play...the POINT of playing on BGTSCC!].

How? Well, you ever have that feeling in RL, that voice in the back of your head that's saying "Hey mate, what you are about to do is pretty dicey and you would do yourself a favor in thinking twice!" Permastrikes could be this "voice," in terms of RPing behavior after receiving 1 or 2 strikes.

What I'm saying here, again, is that Character Deaths, at least the potential of, can be greatly moved for potentially magnificent Role-play experiences. It does require a healthy amount of distance from your "digital fantasy you puppet," aka Toon, but if that is there, you really have in your power the chance for some very interesting Storybuilding! I don't use the term storytelling any more, at least I attempt to avoid it, because BGTSCC and NWN2 invited us to a collaborative experience in the story that unfolds, "written" with great Unknown and mystery, dictated through attempt and result, hopefully more often than not left to Chance (as in, the Dice Roll).

This is essentially the beauty and genius of RPGs like D&D: you can't determine all of it, and neither Player nor DM can force the End of the Story, as long as chance and DCs are involved.

Let's talk more about a healthy balance of Role-play AND roll play. Seriously, this is exactly why there are mechanics to this game, else we are just writing amateur fiction with amateur editors helping us get the Plot out. Which...isn't so bad, but I personally appreciate numbers. Those don't lie...right? Right?!?

Finally, to touch in what was posted just above, maybe we can agree on some form of Tag to put at the top of our examines that quickly explains we appreciate Skill rolls and numbers-related descriptions in order to back up the RP we experience IG and on the Forum.

And as well, a Tag that quickly points out our Character(s) are RP'd with Finite Life in mind, in order to promote less folly and some more realism to the behavior of how the personalities manifest.

Cheers.

[AgentOrange]

My main is a barbarian. He dies a lot.

Until he's run his course and I'm sick of him, at which point he will go down in a blaze of glory, he's just going to talk to Myrkul as much as he needs to.