Upcoming time of troubles

[Dragonslayer]

Something maybe to consider would be knocking the max grinding xp down to 20, but keeping the level 30 cap. People could then gain experience through DM events and similar guild pursuits. This would have the added benefit of making epic feats actually epic in nature, rather than something commonly held by adventurers.

[Shadowspinner70]

I'm not actually sure much of the classes would even need rebalance with a level 20 cap, choices would just have to be made more carefully and there would be more focus and less "dipping" just to get an ability or another.

Gear and stores = no change needed at all. All the stuff we have is appropriate for level 20 really.

Yes, you would lose access to the Epic stuff like Expose weakness and the Ranger level 21 abilities for archery or duel wielding, or the rogue's crazy precision, and epic spells. But that is also partially the point for a level 20 cap. Epic levels are great for a targeted campaign with 100% oversight and ongoing balancing, but to have 60 of them running around willy nilly is beyond lore-breaking, and just encourages "Well, guess we'll have to hit them with MOAR damages and make our creatures just resistant to everything!" to be a challenge. Which is silly IMO. (BTW, yes, I know that affects builds, it would totally require a remake of MY build as well)

I"m not sure the areas would need updating, just the creatures that are in the epic areas redone so they're not... well... so epic? and thus doable.

I"ve never seen any ruling officially on "your level 30 character is level 15 in reality" which is a silly thought to me anyway as then you have level 15 people tossing hell balls like mad, wild shaping into dragons, and the like. And if it IS official, it's not readily available as I've looked for it, and I don't think I've seen anyone follow that ideal in any fashion for any length of time, DMs included.

Level 20 would make prestige classes, well.. prestigious... rather than "oh, yeah, well... everyone does that."

Clearly a server wipe is out of the question for multiple reasons, a goodly number of them valid. Ok, no worries on that.

But the ToT represents a period of massive change in how FR reality works. Let's not waste it.

Same, it'd cause a total rework for me, but I wouldn't mind if that's what the ToT results in. Some classes were nerfed with level 30 goals in mind, they'd need to be pulled back to look at 20. I'd love for SOMETHING to happen with the ToT. It's incredibly silly for level 30s to act level 15, as much as I see the reasoning why. And it's a legitimate reason--level 30 is godlike in power, and that is difficult to RP. So kudos to those who manage it beautifully.

[Snarfy]

Want a level 20 cap? Easy peasy: once you hit level 20, click your experience toggle. Presto! Want some spell failure to go with that? Start saving up all that equipment with plus %'s to ASF. Double win! Heck, start up a ToT club if it tickles your fancies, put it in your bio's and call it a day
Man, I'm full of good ideas.

Barring that, join the dev team and get a taste of how many years it'll take to rework all those areas.

[Tekill]

I can see a homebrewish mega plot where a couple of the events of the ToT are played out on the coast. A couple lore savy DM's can set the wheels in motion and see what happens.
You could have the major battle royal of the Gods play out around us and we mortals get in the way, or are swept up in the chaos.
Or maybe we play small but significate roles.
You could even still stick to the actual events and of the gods, but have the DM's create smaller player involved events around these major canon events. The backlash of the major events making waves that we mortals have to deal with.
For example Cyric kills Bhaal, with Godsbane (I think), a sword that was really the God, Mask. Cyric finds out Mask took the form of Godsbane and steals some of Masks powers.
So maybe the DMs run events where some of us players were unwitting pawns in what happens with Cyric, Bhaal, and Mask. Or maybe we players are given the change to prevent the situation from getting better/worse. Maybe we players save Mask form being slain. Maybe we prevent Godsbane from being used to cause further harm. Maybe we have a chance to save/kill/witness the first bhaalspawns being created?
That example is just off the top of my head and half-baked. But with some knowledge of the lore and some clever planning, there are lots of cool things that can happen.
You could also leave the wild magic and dead zones up to the DMs during the DM events. Let the DM's decide what happens to magic at any given momment.
Or you can create a ToT optional ruleset for players to RP. Such as creating a table of effects that a caster rolls when casting a spell. Depending on what they roll they RP the outcome. Again totally optional and for RP purposes.
It doesnt need to take too much time either - Make the ToT a one month Real Time Event. But have the DMs make that one month be very intense. I would rather have 1 month of pure chaos then 3-6 months of sporadic events, random occurrances and long meandering plot lines that are hard to follow.
The ToT have been creeping up on us for quite a few years now. I would assume a lot of what we discussed has already been considered by now.
I am sure most of us have been considering the many options for the good er...troubled times to come.

[Blackman D]

It's a wonder BG hasn't been reduced to rubble yet.

you are late to the party, it has simply been rebuild after we blew up the palace district

[DaloLorn]

Want some spell failure to go with that? Start saving up all that equipment with plus %'s to ASF. Double win! Heck, start up a ToT club if it tickles your fancies, put it in your bio's and call it a day
Man, I'm full of good ideas.

Barring that, join the dev team and get a taste of how many years it'll take to rework all those areas.

Does it take years, then, to write a spellhook? I've looked inside the wild magic implementation I mentioned; it's not half as complicated as you make it out to be. Neither is shutting down divine magic.

Stop conflating the ToT itself with the rest of the proposals in this thread. Better yet - perhaps a moderator should move them to a separate thread, so we don't have two or three concurrent discussions in a single thread.

[Snarfy]

Does it take years, then, to write a spellhook? I've looked inside the wild magic implementation I mentioned; it's not half as complicated as you make it out to be. Neither is shutting down divine magic.

I wasn't making that part out to be complicated. I was actually referring to how much work it would take to redo literally everything based on the farcical notions of implementing a level 20 cap.

Stop conflating the ToT itself with the rest of the proposals in this thread.

Late to the party indeed. Things were conflated from the first post, feel free to go back and have a read.

[Thaelis]

I"ve never seen any ruling officially on "your level 30 character is level 15 in reality" which is a silly thought to me anyway as then you have level 15 people tossing hell balls like mad, wild shaping into dragons, and the like.

Hehe I'd have to agree that "you're all level 15" is hand-wavery of the highest magnitude. And that would make Emmanuel the proverbial Dragelephant in the room

[Hoihe]

I"ve never seen any ruling officially on "your level 30 character is level 15 in reality" which is a silly thought to me anyway as then you have level 15 people tossing hell balls like mad, wild shaping into dragons, and the like.

Hehe I'd have to agree that "you're all level 15" is hand-wavery of the highest magnitude. And that would make Emmanuel the proverbial Dragelephant in the room

We should just say "Every NPC in the realms is twice their power/level. Consequently, higher level spells are more available and less exceptional."

Level 0 commoners toiling the fields remain the same.

That level 3 warrior in the city watch? Level 6
That level 5 Adept leading a village flock as a Priest? Becomes a level 10 adept.
That level 10 retired adventurer working as a bartender in random village, defending it from Shadows and other undead as a side gig? Level 20.
That level 20 Hellfire Wyrm? Level 40!

Simple solution, and I love its consequences in spell availability.

[Thaelis]

We should just say "Every NPC in the realms is twice their power/level. Consequently, higher level spells are more available and less exceptional."

Level 0 commoners toiling the fields remain the same.

That level 3 warrior in the city watch? Level 6
That level 5 Adept leading a village flock as a Priest? Becomes a level 10 adept.
That level 10 retired adventurer working as a bartender in random village, defending it from Shadows and other undead as a side gig? Level 20.
That level 20 Hellfire Wyrm? Level 40!

Simple solution, and I love its consequences in spell availability.

So Elminster is level 70 and Drizzt is level 40. Yeah ok I'm down with that

[Snarfy]

I've never seen any ruling officially on "your level 30 character is level 15 in reality" which is a silly thought to me anyway as then you have level 15 people tossing hell balls like mad, wild shaping into dragons, and the like.

Hehe I'd have to agree that "you're all level 15" is hand-wavery of the highest magnitude.

There's never been a ruling, per-se, but it's certainly been floated as a guideline for as long as I can remember, since a true level 30 in 3.5 is absurdly powerful(and well beyond in power compared to what our level 30's can do). I think it would be far more accurate to say that our characters are 2/3 their level, since spell progression stops at level 20.

Even everyone's favorite character of all time( ) is only CR 20 in the 3.5 era:

Drizzt Do'Urduen : Male Drow Ranger6 Fighter8 Rogue2 Dervish1 Barbarian1; CR 20

(... three by twenty violation!)

Anyhoo, this topic is starting to meander...

[artemitavik]

Actually, discussion of level 20 cap possibility as well as what to do with the ToT were both in my original post (mostly as a reaction to the ToT) so I find both topics in this thread perfectly legit IMO.

The point being that the ToT offers a great deal of potential for a great deal of fun and change, and the level 20 cap suggested to be maybe part of that as a result. The idea of this is to help rebalance the massive top-heavy stuff that has to take place to give any group any sort of "challenge" and in theory, nothing map-wise would have to be done, nothing gear or store wise, just some of the top-end creatures remade *shrug*

The wipe was suggested because I figured it would be the easiest way to implement a level 20 cap, but *more shrug* that seems to be a non-thing, so that's ok. It was only a suggestion.

As noted before, there are some really good ideas for both of those points coming from all sides. I don't agree with all of them, but that doesn't mean they're not good ideas.

But I will ask that folks remain civil, lest the moderators actually lock the thing down and actual conversation suddenly ceases.

That being said, I still find the 1/2 or 2/3 rule massively silly. Why bother to say "act like your characters are level 15" or "act like your characters are level 20" and then just... give them abilities and powers far and beyond that? So people can see fancy numbers on the screen? That sort of declaration confuses me. But as Snarfy has pointed out, that at least is a different topic.

[Rhifox]

in theory, nothing map-wise would have to be done, nothing gear or store wise, just some of the top-end creatures remade *shrug*

I kind of like this idea. Capping players at 20 but leaving the epic dungeons as they are rather than rebalancing them, so they're truly dangerous areas.

[yyj]

I am positive most of these ideas would kill the server population.

As many have been suggested before and it's really a loud minority that wants it.

[Snarfy]

The wipe was suggested because I figured it would be the easiest way to implement a level 20 cap, but *more shrug* that seems to be a non-thing, so that's ok. It was only a suggestion.

in theory, nothing map-wise would have to be done, nothing gear or store wise, just some of the top-end creatures remade *shrug*

I kind of like this idea. Capping players at 20 but leaving the epic dungeons as they are rather than rebalancing them, so they're truly dangerous areas.

While I may have been cheeky in one of my previous posts, and at the risk of repeating myself, I would just re-iterate to anyone who wants to play at a level 20 cap, they can absolutely can do so. It is a thing, and all that is required of interested parties is:

A. RCR their level 30 character back to 20.
B. Ask a DM for a de-level to 20.
Or even, if it works(?), C. Use the experience remover in nexus to pull your character back down to 20.

All you need to do after that is use the 'Experience toggle' feat and you're done. Everyone has the freedom and ability to do this right now if they so choose, and there's nothing unreasonable about individuals deciding for themselves to play at a level 20 cap. Personally, I would applaud anyone doing this, and one day I might even recycle one of my level 30's and join in.

What isn't reasonable about the idea(at least the way it's being promoted) is expecting everyone to want the same, or promoting a level 20 cap implementation server-wide if it means that peoples builds/characters will be rendered mechanically unviable. I mean, it's one thing to want something for yourself... that is already within your power to participate in, but if it comes with the condition of: "everyone else has to do it too", then that's obviously going to meet some resistance.

So, my simple question to the proponents of said cap: What is stopping you?

Back to the ToT ideas, I liked some of what Tekill had to say, specifically these:

I can see a homebrewish mega plot where a couple of the events of the ToT are played out on the coast. A couple lore savy DM's can set the wheels in motion and see what happens.

You could even still stick to the actual events and of the gods, but have the DM's create smaller player involved events around these major canon events. The backlash of the major events making waves that we mortals have to deal with.
For example Cyric kills Bhaal, with Godsbane (I think), a sword that was really the God, Mask. Cyric finds out Mask took the form of Godsbane and steals some of Masks powers.

So maybe the DMs run events where some of us players were unwitting pawns in what happens with Cyric, Bhaal, and Mask.

Maybe we have a chance to save/kill/witness the first bhaalspawns being created?

You could also leave the wild magic and dead zones up to the DMs during the DM events. Let the DM's decide what happens to magic at any given moment.

Or you can create a ToT optional ruleset for players to RP. Such as creating a table of effects that a caster rolls when casting a spell. Depending on what they roll they RP the outcome. Again totally optional and for RP purposes.