Theorycrafting: Shifter

[Steve]

Has anybody experience with powerbuilding a dragon druid? How does an optimized dragon druid compare against the shifter?

dragon has a higher str than the shifter shapes which offsets the medium bab, higher base nat ac which compensates the shield bonus, higher dr, regeneration spell is stronger than shifter regeneration, dragon companion and spells.

Did I miss something or is dragon druid much stronger than shifter?

You can roll up a Druid/Shifter AND take Dragon Wildshape!! Get it all for nearly nothing!!

[DaloLorn]

Has anybody experience with powerbuilding a dragon druid? How does an optimized dragon druid compare against the shifter?

dragon has a higher str than the shifter shapes which offsets the medium bab, higher base nat ac which compensates the shield bonus, higher dr, regeneration spell is stronger than shifter regeneration, dragon companion and spells.

Did I miss something or is dragon druid much stronger than shifter?

You can roll up a Druid/Shifter AND take Dragon Wildshape!! Get it all for nearly nothing!!

A pure druid can self-buff with CL30 spells, including Regeneration. AFAIK, the Shifter form buffs don't transfer to any form except the special Shifter shapes, so a dragon-only shifter loses druid magic and their animal companion in exchange for higher BAB and 3 regeneration. Not worth it.

(This isn't to say that a druidic shifter would be a fool to take dragon shape, though. I could see a few scenarios where it was preferable to the Owlbear, and there's probably a few decent use cases for the other epic wildshapes too. And, of course, nobody has quite as diverse a range of possible forms as a druidic shifter.)

[YYA]

So it appears that Druid has a mechanical advantage over Wizard, Sorcerer, and Spirit Shaman due to Natural Spell. Druid has another advantage over Sorcerer and Spirit Shaman in that Druid only requires 5 levels, while Sorcerer and Spirit Shaman require 6. Any non-roleplay reason to take Sorcerer or Spirit Shaman?

If we keep the build as the same "EDM Blackguard 4/Shifter 20" -- then both the Sorcerer and the Spirit Shaman will actually increase their offensive spell DCs. Both the druidic and wizard spell lists have low level AoE spells that could be used to hamper your prey. From the top of my mind, wizard spell list has at least the spell Grease, and the druidic spell list has stuff like: Trip Vine and Vine Mine. But the big perk of the Spirit Shaman and Sorcerer is the ability to cast spells spontaneously, which means that when you get dispelled you can easily recast the lost Bull's Strengths, Cat's Graces. and with the wizard spell list: Eagle's Splendour. With caster level of ten, if any area has dispells, your buffs will be dispelled, and spontaneous casters will have much easier time getting back those +2 modifier bonuses from Strength, Dexterity, and Charisma. The reason I did not mention these spells with the Druid 6/Blackguard 4/Shifter 20 was simply because of dispels, you never know which of your buffs gets dispelled and thus it is better to just stock up on Flame/Frost Weapon. So there are some perks to Sorcerers and Spirit Shamans.

Which leaves us with Wizards, and well, if you go 14 intelligence you get to learn two new languages and get additional +66 skill points to place wherever, and the possibility to increase your AC through Combat Expertise. So, if we look at the wizard spell book little bit closer, you have the previously mentioned ability score increasing spells, but also spells such as Mage Armor, Shield at level one, while "Identify" gets a honorable mention here. On the second level you got spells like: Ghostly Visage, Mirror Image, and Invisibility. On the third level you would have Improved Mage Armor, Heroism, and Mass Curse of Impending Blades.

Wizard obviously suffers from lack of spontaneous spellcasting, so depending on the situation you might end up with memorized spells you have no use for whatsoever, but on the plus side you could learn pretty much every spell that I have listed above, and more easily cross-class into UMD with your extra skill points if you like to use wands.

As for Sorcerer and Spirit Shaman, we have to consider their limited number of known spells. A Sorcerer will know only 4 first level spells, 2 second level spells, and 1 third level spell. A Spirit Shaman will know 5 first level spells, 4 second level spells, and 3 third level spells. So all in all, there are some perks and losses to all four possible base classes, and the Druid build is not necessarily the best build for you if you consider your own individual preferences.

And finally, finally:
Spell casting ability score of 12 nets you one extra first level spell slot.
Spell casting ability score of 14 nets you one extra second level spell slot.
Spell casting ability score of 16 nets you one extra third level spell slot.

In order to get additional slots, you need 20 for a first level, 22 for a second level, and so on. Therefore, if the polymorph spell slot lost has been fixed, base ability score of 13 with appropriate +3 items might be the best way to go at it. Otherwise 13 or 14 in the base ability should be fine even without item items to boost it further.

[YYA]

Has anybody experience with powerbuilding a dragon druid? How does an optimized dragon druid compare against the shifter?

dragon has a higher str than the shifter shapes which offsets the medium bab, higher base nat ac which compensates the shield bonus, higher dr, regeneration spell is stronger than shifter regeneration, dragon companion and spells.

Did I miss something or is dragon druid much stronger than shifter?

The greatest flaw of the Druid is the lack of spontaneous spell casting, which means that a Druid player has to actually decide what they want to do with their druid because they cannot do it all at once. You know, you have high DC spells, you have great animal companion, you can turn yourself into a dragon, etc, but if you try to spread your spell slots to cover all those things at once -- you will quickly realise that the druid has some terrible flaws, and you might be baffled how anyone would even think that druids are powerful. Personally, I would rather play a wisdom based Spirit Shaman with no spell DCs, with no animal companion, because the spontaneous spell casting lets my character survive a great deal of things.

So, you have to choose how to play your druid and dedicate your spellbook towards that very purpose.

For example, you could focus entirely on buffing up and keeping your animal companion alive. It is a beast that tears through the server when you pour every possible buff you have on it. In such a case I would actually recommedn three levels of Shadowdancer, so you can just HiPS away and watch how your buffed up bear tears through everything.

When it comes to making the best out of your high spell DCs, the first thing to remember is that you are not a wizard, you are not going to kill things by just throwing your high DCs at them. Instead, you use your eigth level spells on Storm Avatar, you use it to run around the map to gather a mob of monsters, and then you cast that Trip Vine, Vine Mine, and Storm of Vengeance, and perhaps Briar Web for good measure, and you just sit and watch as the monster become utterly helpless and slowly die.

And then there is dragon druid. To my eyes, most people tend to take it just to be bulky or something, little bit more difficult to kill, and then complain how the form is weak. Thus, the first way to fix that problem is to cast Flame/Frost Weapon on yourself, Followed by Stom Avatar, and possibly Thorn Skin to get extra +1d8 fire/ice, +3d6 electrical, and +1d4 piercing damage per every hit. The rest of your spells go to transform your animal companion into a meat shield.

So yeah, if you know what you are doing with a Druid, it is going to be stronger. But if your druid is trying to do everything at once, then perhaps playing a shifter of some kind would be the far better choice.

[Kalgain]

UPDATED for the new change

dragon vs owlbear:

Dragon:
37 STR , 16 DEX , 27 CON , 17 NAT AC (+2 shield enhancement) ( +1 tumble)(+3 dodge ac from lvl 28,29,30 druid)
dr 15/-
bab 22

(+spells including a +10 regen spell,companion,+5weapon enchantment spell,Immunity: Mind effects, Paralysis, Sneak attack,True Seeing)

Owlbear
STR 23+10=33, DEX 12+10=22, CON 21+5=26, NATURAL AC 8+7(shield enhancement) (+3 tumble)
10/-
bab 28 (or 27)

(+3 regen,+5 weapon enchantment,expose weakness or weapon spec/mastery)

If we assume no buffs then owlbear has +4 ab, -2 ac
dragon has +5/- dr, +2 dmg (I dont know the claw weapon of the bear, most likely dragon is stronger)

Conclusion: Now I think I will just stick with a dragon druid. That gap between shifter and dragon druid seems too large now.

[Theodore01]

Did I miss something big that the Owlbear shifter has going for it? Most likely

Yes, the owlbear is so cute!

[Kalgain]

with the recent change in CON scaling (-5 con) and ac reduction (-3ac), now has severe problems in his defense. Combat expertise is a must now, but what can be done about the saving throws?

[Steve]

with the recent change in CON scaling (-4 con) and ac reduction (-3ac), now has severe problems in his defense. Combat expertise is a must now, but what can be done about the saving throws?

AC is still excellent. And take Steadfast Determination, so that CON modifier transfers to Will Saves.

[mrm3ntalist]

UPDATED for the new change

dragon vs owlbear:

Dragon:
37 STR , 16 DEX , 27 CON , 17 NAT AC (+2 shield enhancement) ( +1 tumble)(+3 dodge ac from lvl 28,29,30 druid)
dr 15/-
bab 22

(+spells including a +10 regen spell,companion,+5weapon enchantment spell,Immunity: Mind effects, Paralysis, Sneak attack,True Seeing)

Owlbear
STR 23+10=33, DEX 12+10=22, CON 21+5=26, NATURAL AC 8+7(shield enhancement) (+3 tumble)
10/-
bab 28 (or 27)

(+3 regen,+5 weapon enchantment,expose weakness or weapon spec/mastery)

If we assume no buffs then owlbear has +4 ab, -2 ac
dragon has +5/- dr, +2 dmg (I dont know the claw weapon of the bear, most likely dragon is stronger)

Conclusion: Now I think I will just stick with a dragon druid. That gap between shifter and dragon druid seems too large now.

If you build the shifter like trash, it is going to be trash. The shifter, can be much more powerful than the stats you provide. The "nerfs" did nothing to this PRC. It is still going to solo everything. With the self-concealment changes you now have an additional build alternative compared to the CON build.

[Steve]

The "nerfs" did nothing to this PRC. It is still going to solo everything. With the self-concealment changes you now have an additional build alternative compared to the CON build.

And...you can look at my theorycrafting build that I posted earlier, and in that build I choose to max INT for mad Skills...and still, that Shifter PrC slays.

[mrm3ntalist]

The "nerfs" did nothing to this PRC. It is still going to solo everything. With the self-concealment changes you now have an additional build alternative compared to the CON build.

And...you can look at my theorycrafting build that I posted earlier, and in that build I choose to max INT for mad Skills...and still, that Shifter PrC slays.

Yes, any shifter build will slay. Powerbuild it and it will slay literally everything on the server with just shop items

[Kalgain]

Ok, maybe I still have some difficulties power building a shifter. My builds are a bit stronger than Steves Shifter when fighting against bosses but not much.

Making a straightforward comparison to other classes based on stats a shifter comes out roughly equal, and fighting against normal mobs is where a shifter shines equally. However, in hard fights, all other builds can heal, use wands, use other oh shit skills that save him. A shifter needs to revert to normal form and thus expose himself heavily if he wants to do that.

How would you deal with these situations?

[mrm3ntalist]

Ok, maybe I still have some difficulties power building a shifter. My builds are a bit stronger than Steves Shifter when fighting against bosses but not much.

Making a straightforward comparison to other classes based on stats a shifter comes out roughly equal, and fighting against normal mobs is where a shifter shines equally. However, in hard fights, all other builds can heal, use wands, use other oh (#2) skills that save him. A shifter needs to revert to normal form and thus expose himself heavily if he wants to do that.

How would you deal with these situations?

DR + Heal ( all sources) + High AC = Invulnerable

Because of he above this PRC is OP. It gets everything and it gets them in high values. Even little things like givingit nor restrictions, Uncanny Dodge and Blind fight. There is not only another PRC that gives so much, but no other melee build. One of a kind.

I ll make a video when the shifter is out

[Kalgain]

You can still achieve higher or the same DR as a dragon druid, you have a better AC as a dragon druid (when you cast tortoise shell) and you regen more HP as a dragon druid (if you use the regeneration spell)

[mrm3ntalist]

You can still achieve higher or the same DR as a dragon druid, you have a better AC as a dragon druid (when you cast tortoise shell) and you regen more HP as a dragon druid (if you use the regeneration spell)

Nothing I wil lsay will convince you. I know that. Through out the years with this game, I find that there is only one way to convince people - videos. Talk to you again when it is released