Theorycrafting: Shifter

[The_Sorting_Hat]

We've all seen it. And if you haven't, go check it out and swing back here.

We're all on the same page? The Hype is Real? Good, let's begin.

How are we making the best shifter we can? We've had it confirmed that Monks' melee attacks and Wis AC won't work. Neither will Transmutation's Augment Form. So those are out for the 10 levels we have to work with.

But what about other sneak attack sources? Would Sneak attack be added to all forms? Would it stack with Pixie form's own Sneak Attack? Would Arcane Trickster function with it and the Ogre Magi?

What about all the combat feats? Northlander and the like? Will those be of use? What about ranger favored enemy things?

Let the Theorycrafting Begin!

What's your take on the best shifter build?

[The_Sorting_Hat]

Assassin: Death Attack? Will it stack with the pixie? 5 levels are easy to pick up and will get you some nice class skills like Tumble and UMD alongside +3d6 Death Attack and Uncanny.

Arcane Trickster: Hard to Fit in, but Possible to grab two levels of it and get Arcane Sneak Attack with 3d6 to ogre's Force Orb, if it'll even work with it...

Rogue: Neat Class Skills, Skill Points, Sneak attack and Evasion for Expose Weakness later on.

Cleric: Can get Evasion and Divine Might, but I doubt it'll be very useful with the new forms. I doubt you'll be able to use it with them.

Paladin/Blackguard: Same problem with Divine Might, but you get some decent saves with it I suppose...

Fighter: High BAB and Bonus Feats, though I'm not sure what Weapon to focus on... Can you take Creature Weapons on fighter levels and feats?

Dwarven Defender: Will the Dodge Bonus to AC work with it?

Pale Master: Will the AC Bonus Work with the forms?

Breach Gnome: Seal the Breach bonuses seem pretty great with all of this. But will it work?

[Kalgain]

I am set on my owl bear paladin.

spirit shaman 5/ paladin 5/ shifer 20

epic feats all cha, epic prowess, armor skin. There is just not enough free levels to get evasion for expose weakness in.
combat expertise,imp combat expertise, and divine might+shield, toughness, alertness, loh, steadfast.

[Kalgain]

From Wiki

Monk AC (both wisdom based one and level based one) are disabled during wildshape, polymorph and shapechange.
Natural AC from Palemaster, Frostmage and Dragon Disciple is disabled during polymorph and shapechange.
Spellslot loss fixed. (Sadly not for spontaneous casters (Sorcerer, Spirit Shaman, etc.) and slots from items!)
Item properties merge with new shape. Only best slot merges.
Natural, Deflection, and Armor AC from items merge, dodge AC does not merge.
Permanent weapon enchantments carries over to creatures who use weapons. Temporary ones are removed to avoid an exploit.
Weapon Feats: Unarmed do not convert to Weapon Feats: Creature.
Damage Reduction derived from Shapechange now works.
100% Spellcasting Failure has been added to Polymorph and Shapechange to prevent exploiting.
All forms have been rebalanced.
Forms are selected through the feat Shape Shift, which is granted by the spells. For the duration this feat can be used to shift between all available shapes.

[The_Sorting_Hat]

But how do you plan to activate your divine Might and Divine Shield in the forms though? I bet it'll be like every other form where your quick bars get locked.

[Kalgain]

I have no experience with shape changing, but I want to make an owl bear paladin .
If what you say is correct, then I am out .

What you are saying that it is impossible to use wands if shape changed?

[The_Sorting_Hat]

It is. And most abilities like Divine Might. But expose should work as you toggle it before shifting.

[joleda]

I am set on my owl bear paladin.

spirit shaman 5/ paladin 5/ shifer 20

epic feats all cha, epic prowess, armor skin. There is just not enough free levels to get evasion for expose weakness in.
combat expertise,imp combat expertise, and divine might+shield, toughness, alertness, loh, steadfast.

You can't make that character. As it's currently written, the minimum level requirements are Wizard 5, Sorcerer 6, Druid 5, and Shaman 6 due to the requirement to cast level 3 spells. The requirements are here and the spell progression is here.

[Kalgain]

thanks, but then I would just use wizard instead of spirit shaman. The big question was if it is possible to use divine might.

[Steve]

Seems the best builds are going to be Druid 5 / Rogue 5 / shifter 20 or Druid 7 / Cleric 3 / Shifter 20.

Maybe even Druid 6 / Fighter 4 / Shifter 20 if you think the AC dodge loss is acceptable, then you’ll have much better damage ( if I remember correctly matelenar said Shifter AC is shield not Dodge!!).

Because of loss of spellcasting progression, any non-Druid version is effectively gimped.

[Kalgain]

I would include paladin or blackguard just for the saves. Even if divine might won't work, you can put points into cha for saves.

[Kalgain]

What other attributes could benefit shifter? Int Wis?

[TheKai]

I feel that pixie form would be encumbered as soon as you shift to it with everything you have on, and in inventory.

[Kalgain]

depends, I read contradicting information about attribute items working when shapeshifted.

[The_Sorting_Hat]

Seems the best builds are going to be Druid 5 / Rogue 5 / shifter 20 or Druid 7 / Cleric 3 / Shifter 20.

Maybe even Druid 6 / Fighter 4 / Shifter 20 if you think the AC dodge loss is acceptable, then you’ll have much better damage ( if I remember correctly matelenar said Shifter AC is shield not Dodge!!).

Because of loss of spellcasting progression, any non-Druid version is effectively gimped.

The more I think about it, the more it seems druid5/rogue5 is the best split. You get expose weakness, tumble, sneak attack and skills. Cleric 3 would only get me expose, but not tumble, skills or sneak. Maybe if any of the new domains are expecially great to pick up, but I doubt they will. I guess the good ol' Grumbar Cleric/Druid dip, but god, how I'd not want to RP that... Even the Druid class in there makes me unhappy, but what else can we really do. Wizard gives up an extra attack, being the low BAB class unless you pair it with fighter, and even in that case... What do you actually gain as a wizard that you can't have as druid? I suppose it's possible to have 5wiz/5 fighter but that bonus wizard feat only gets you spellcasting feats wihch are pointless here and maybe great intelligence, but again, what's the point of that. And Sorcerer gets you even less at a cost of more levels. Shaman as well.

So really, what you end up getting is a 5 Druid as a must-have pick, just so you can some choice with the other 5 levels without losing the extra attack. And Rogue simply gives the most out of the bunch. Even if Fighters weapon specialization creature works with the forms, not all of them use creature weapons. And even then, I don't suppose it'd do that much more damage overall when compared to expose weakness a rogue would get you. Alongside tumble. And you can even be a trap disabler when shifted. And a shitty sneak, as skill bonuses don't transfer over to forms.

The only real alternative I see to Druid5/Rogue5 is Druid5/Cavestalker5 as you keep tumble, but instead of evasion/Expose you get 1 more BAB (MAYBE +2AC, but I doubt it'll end up working in forms), a roleplaying shifting form of a spider, if that's your thing and spellcasting up to level 5 spells instead of level 3.

IF you're not going the Rogue route though and already skipping the Expose Weakness route, you might as well grab the starting class as a Spirit Shaman and save one feat on Alertness which you get for free. You then have 4 levels to play with, so Fighter will get you 1 BAB and maybe Creature Weapon Specialization, if that even works. The Cleric Route would also work with Spirit Shaman better than the druid, and so would the paladin.