Owl's Insight to P&P equivilent duration

[Ithilan]

Sorry I dont want to disclose the details of my builds in depth in public, for various reasons that dont belong in this topic.

But I agree fully with you that theres plenty of options deviating from these traditional builds, martial based druids with heavy multiclassing to compensate for their one flaw, mediocre to poor AB. Druids have very few means on their own to increase AB, but they have one of the best spellbooks for increasing damage.

And while as you say, some classes may be more appealing on paper for those type of builds, be it spirit shaman or clerics. Druids can become more than viable with them too and offers a completely different character concept and RP as I see it.

I think the essence of the issues is peoples mindset about optimizing and you really do not need to. Dragon druids are one of the strongest solo builds out there, but being S tier doesnt mean the alternatives are weak, far from it.

Also regarding a previous argument that people would just have to spend more money on consumables with the proposed change, I think is silly. People will spend consumables relative to many factors, if it is easy and cheap to achieve a significant power creep, you will buy the potions. If its expensive and more troublesome, you will probably not use this convenient buff and find yourself still performing quite well. Just like some people spam wands repeatedly and others dont, its also relative to individual player economy and availability.

Tons of people were using divine power potions for years, prior to the spells changes, because it was so easy to throw on top of your otherwise godmoding strength bard etc. once it was changed, those characters didnt stop destroying every zone on the server, they just did it a bit slower. And from reading through the thread, it seems like Owls Insight is serving that exact purpose now, while being a major headache for the developers. Im all for the change essentially.

[renshouj]

ty for the pm, those actually sound like fun combinations

but a few things pop in my mind.
Combinations with very heavy multiclassing like the ones you shared are harder to pull off. I'm not good at the game, mechanically. I also dont have many items to my name. Druid 30 (or close to it) is a simple but effective way to go, hard to f*ck up and can carry itself in epic PvE content.

The builds you mentioned to me, I have no idea how to pull them off. Especially mechanically, but even RP wise, since I care that I properly RP every class I take.

Also also, just to point it out, a dragon druid is strong in PvE, but I don't think I'd call them S tier. You can solo most things, but there are way better builds out there that struggle way less. Mostly because druids simply cant use consumables while shifted (something I dont really want to see changed imo), and in a lot of epic areas in this game, consumables are King. Its even one of the points in this post, talking about elixirs

[JustAnotherGuy]

martial based druids with heavy multiclassing to compensate

To me, this is no longer a druid. If "Heavy multiclassing" is the prerequisite for viability, then it is not viable. Because then you aren't playing a druid. You are playing something else who happens to have some druidic tendencies.

[DaloLorn]

martial based druids with heavy multiclassing to compensate

To me, this is no longer a druid. If "Heavy multiclassing" is the prerequisite for viability, then it is not viable. Because then you aren't playing a druid. You are playing something else who happens to have some druidic tendencies.

That might be why I hadn't thought of any builds that fit Ithilan's description... With very few exceptions, I build my casters for 20+ levels of spell progression, either from base class or from PRCs, and to my shame, I forgot that Warpriest was a thing.

[Ithilan]

martial based druids with heavy multiclassing to compensate

To me, this is no longer a druid. If "Heavy multiclassing" is the prerequisite for viability, then it is not viable. Because then you aren't playing a druid. You are playing something else who happens to have some druidic tendencies.

Absolutely rediculous statement. You are playing your sheet and if the majority of that is a druid, then so are you.

Multi classing is like adding to your profession and experience more than redefining you. Its like saying an arch mage is no longer a wizard.

All it takes is imagination and creativity, understanding of the representation of the PrCs in lore terms and inginuity of how to portray and incorporate that in to role play. A druid/shifter is still very much a druid, probably with more feral tendencies than the druid/heirophant who is more akin to an arch druid. But being a build snob and purist for fit such a narrow minded perspective is straight up idiotic.

My druid has a very good lore explination to every aspect of her build, just as all my characters do. I try and incorporate skill points, feats, stat allocations, language selections and everything that mechanically goes in to my builds, in to my RP as well and you can typically discern a lot of that from my character backgrounds as well.

"Play your sheet" is something I try and do to the letter and I never have any builds where I forfeit portraying the classes for that very reason.

That might be why I hadn't thought of any builds that fit Ithilan's description... With very few exceptions, I build my casters for 20+ levels of spell progression, either from base class or from PRCs, and to my shame, I forgot that Warpriest was a thing.

I gave a vague descriptor with out any disclosed information about build specifics or the narrative that goes in to portrayal of my builds. I'd highly recommend you do some research in to the Emerald Enclave and their many different member types across Faerun and the various examples of character builds from source books that represent their members, as well as the many differing nature deities and their aspects. Theres a large difference between an Eldathyn and Mielikkian druid, but whatever fits your argument.

My posts were only to elude to the fact you can make a ton of variation with druid builds that still very much are within norms of the setting, how one interprets them is down to imagination and creativity. And there is no where, any where, in any source book or on this server, where people have disqualified from their core class for multiclassing, in terms of lore or RP. Only a fallen paladin comes to mind for that narrative, or a druid who has broken their oath to nature.. which is not the case with my builds and I do not like the insinuation that others are roleplaying wrong by not following some unwritten build snobbery.

[DaloLorn]

Minor nitpick: If you're taking all 20 shifter levels, you're a druidic shifter, not a druid/shifter. With the loss of half of your spell progression and possibly other class features, full shifters do tend to play more like "shifter who happens to be an X" than "an X who happens to be a shifter".

[Ithilan]

Minor nitpick: If you're taking all 20 shifter levels, you're a druidic shifter, not a druid/shifter. With the loss of half of your spell progression and possibly other class features, full shifters do tend to play more like "shifter who happens to be an X" than "an X who happens to be a shifter".

That is an example of an interpretation, luckily its a creative space where people can make unique characters and RP them differently, or the server would stagnate with cloned archetypes of no variation or individuality.

But to dismiss your Caster Level argument, my "martial" druid is caster level 30 with near full spell progression and I have had only possitive feedback from roleplaying her from genuinely intrigued players, including a lot of other druids and nature attuned builds. Ill withdraw from this topic for now as the conversation is getting derailed in to something bizzare.

[JustAnotherGuy]

But being a build snob and purist for fit such a narrow minded perspective is straight up idiotic.
. . .
I do not like the insinuation that others are roleplaying wrong by not following some unwritten build snobbery.

Well. That went from zero to sixty in no time flat. Instead of addressing the vitriol and responding in kind, I'll move on to a single statement that defends my reasoning for what I said.

And there is no where, any where, in any source book or on this server, where people have disqualified from their core class for multiclassing, in terms of lore or RP.

From the Complete Druid's Handbook:

Initiates constitute the 1st- to 11th-level druids within a circle.

. . .

Upon reaching 12th level, a character receives the official title druid

According to this supplement (which is up to date with the 2e lore of the server), those with the druid class are initiates until they reach level 12. Given the server's stance on "half levels", this would mean that lore-wise, someone is an initiate (and does not have the title "druid") until they have 24 levels of druid. Hence my statement that other builds would have "druidic tendencies" and not be a druid.

And this follows with what I said that to me, if the build is multiclassed heavily, they are no longer a druid, but have druidic tendencies. Is this wrong? There's nothing inherently wrong with it, no. People can play whatever builds/classes they want (within server rules, of course).

[Rhifox]

And there is no where, any where, in any source book or on this server, where people have disqualified from their core class for multiclassing, in terms of lore or RP.

From the Complete Druid's Handbook:

Initiates constitute the 1st- to 11th-level druids within a circle.

. . .

Upon reaching 12th level, a character receives the official title druid

According to this supplement (which is up to date with the 2e lore of the server), those with the druid class are initiates until they reach level 12. Given the server's stance on "half levels", this would mean that lore-wise, someone is an initiate (and does not have the title "druid") until they have 24 levels of druid. Hence my statement that other builds would have "druidic tendencies" and not be a druid.

And this follows with what I said that to me, if the build is multiclassed heavily, they are no longer a druid, but have druidic tendencies. Is this wrong? There's nothing inherently wrong with it, no. People can play whatever builds/classes they want (within server rules, of course).

This isn't entirely accurate.

They are still druids. They are just initiate druids. But they are still part of druidic circles, still inducted into the order, given training, taught the secret languages, etc.

They might not have the title druid, but that doesn't mean they aren't druids. Just that they aren't full druids.

I also think using level-based ranking isn't entirely appropriate for an RP server.

[Rhifox]

Oh, and there's nothing in those quotes to indicate that only druid levels count. It could be referring to character level.

[Ithilan]

It also varies greatly depending on the faction, and PrCs have various descriptions that state how they are simply a more advanced, specialized or ascended form of the given class that provided them access to it, that does not by any means diminish their qualifications for certain possitions in canon factions. How each seperate faction handles it on this server is perhaps a different matter.

This is a wonderful video to explain how the Emerald Enclave for example is structured and operates.

[JustAnotherGuy]

They might not have the title druid, but that doesn't mean they aren't druids. Just that they aren't full druids.

I also think using level-based ranking isn't entirely appropriate for an RP server.

I can agree on both statements. For the first one, that's essentially a better way of saying what I was trying to say.

On the second one, we do end up doing a lot of things differently than in the books, because we have to, being a PW. We have to change how some things work, and can't bring it directly in line with PnP, or how it would be with a small group meeting up to play. We have to be willing to give on some things, and not try and draw it straight into how it is in PnP.

Which segues back nicely into the original point of the topic. In my opinion, trying turn Owl's Insight into it's PnP restrictions on time (I'm speaking of 15 minutes, not an actual, RL hour) would make it moot for use on the server, save for those who use it right before a boss in dungeons. It would lose any RP value, and any value in DM events. It would become just like Oaken Resilience, which I have and wish I could use, but just can't.

[Kitunenotsume]

Thank you to all those who have been participating in this conversation, and for providing your perspectives on this matter.
I appreciate your contributions, and shall attempt to summarize and address this week's discussion.

Hidden: show

To be fair to the other classes, the normal +4 spellcasting stat boost that they get is rubbish. BGtSCC monsters, especially the epic ones, are so massively overpowered and absurdly powerbuilt with regards to certain key traits - and specifically saves are what I'm on about here - that DC-based spellcasters or spells are a joke that people still pursue either for flavour or ignorance of the module's mechanics. The thing with comparing that to Owl's Insight is that mages can mix several prestige classes to boost their DCs (and they still won't be high enough to matter as a level 30 PC against epic enemies, mind you), whereas druid has only two ways to get comparable DCs: cast Owl's Insight and take hierophant (+1 DC by level 6 of that class woohoo!!!!) and lose access to dragon shape (unless dragon shape requirements have been substantially lowered whilst I wasn't looking); or cast Owl's insight and do nothing else (+6 DC boost, 4 above Owl's Wisdom).

The shortcomings of DC druids (and DC casters in general) have been fairly adequately addressed in Cosmic's post, though I'd also like to reiterate that our gameplay is designed in such a way that offensive spellcasting is only vaguely economical in PvP, certain DM events, and boss fights. (Of which DM events are the only place where it's plausible for you to land a DC spell worth a damn.)

Essentially, we have three kinds of druids. Dragon druids, monk/druid combos, and druids that suck at everything outside of some builds that rely on Owl's Insight. That's the reality that we have right now, like it or not. Dragon druids are powerful, yes. I won't try and argue that. But unless a druid is shifted into dragon form, the only saving grace they have is Owl's Insight. Without Owl's Insight the way it works, you will only have two types of druids: Dragon Druids, and druids who can't do anything.

If the primary issue is DCs then why not change owls insight into a strait DC boost for Druids and Spirit Shamans?

This would actually equalize the disparity between SS and Druid DC casters

Recent discussion appears to have been rather heavily inclining towards the idea that DCs are the main concern, with AB a lesser one, which is a function of more than just individual characters.
The factors so far provided have been:

1. Enemy saves require unreasonable DCs.
2. Druid DC save spells are of poor variety.
3. Multiclass druids lack DC boosting PRCs available to other classes.
4. Non-multiclass Druids (and Druid/Monks) rely on a single stat to make-or-break combat effectiveness (Wisdom).

Of these, I can currently see the following considerations:

1. It is known that enemies are incredibly overtuned, and while not an immediate solution a rebalance of all enemies will likely substantially help all DC casters that are currently suffering from the inflated saves, not just druids.

   ---

2. I unfortunately have little insight into what Druid spells are of questionable use, but I am aware Spells are an involved process to create and finalize. However, if enemy saves are reduced, and suggestions for other spells were put forwards and implemented, other viable options should open up.

   ---

3. I have personally been bothered by how much the server rewards multiclassing/PRCs over pure-class. If #1 does not resolve the issue of DCs being ineffective, an option here could be to 'bake' a DC increase into all primary caster classes for dedication. My immediate inspiration here would be either a +1 DC per 10 base-caster levels (so 10, 20, 30, for a total of +3 DCs for a pure class), or +1 per 5 levels *over* 10 (so 15, 20, 25, 30, for a total of +4). This would be equitable across all caster classes, and reward any pure caster class who forgoes special abilities awarded by PRCs (particularly when coupled with 3b20). By requiring levels in a base class, it is available to all spell-lists regardless of what PRCs they can access, as taking a PRC actively reduces the reward. As to what is conisdered a "pure caster", I leave to others to decide but suggest limitation to full-CL classes with 9 spell-levels, at a minimum.
   This is secondarily effective because most PRCs increase effective caster-level, not DC. Given that it takes 3 epic-CL to equal 1 DC, PRCs would have a higher CL, but pure-casters a higher DC, creating some reward for both choices.

   ---

4. While point was brought up that characters taking Zen Archery are reliant on maximising their wisdom bonus, it would hopefully be less manditory should #1 be implemented. I am unfortunately quite unaware of pure druid meta, and unable to provide much consideration on this angle.

I am aware my responses are prescriptivist, over descriptive of the current situation, but hopefully provide some consideration of what adjustments could be used. I maintain that the existence of any +12 bonus to a stat is both concerning and anomalous regardless of target-limitations, particularly when it is both effectively permanent and seen as a required portion of builds who receive it automatically. Even if restrictions are applied, its mere existence colours and affects balance and induces exceptions that require further counterbalance. It is still my hope that this outlier can be rendered unnecessary and removed, but it is also evident that doing so is disruptive to existing status quo.

It is therefore my further suggestion that if any changes to this spell were to be introduced, that they occur at the same time as the PvE rebalance pass and no earlier, as that is quite evidently one of the largest factors in its reliance.


Addendum:
Following my recent investigations into the Disease mechanics and testing with Mass Contagion, I have identified that the non-P&P implementation of Spellcraft granting a bonus vs Spells contributes heavily to Save Inflation, and further penalizes the utility of DC-based spells. The potential +6 to saves vs spells from 30 skill-ranks is rather evidently a hard-nerf to DC-casters, and could reasonably make a +4 to spell DCs seen as failure to keep up - rather than an excessive boon.
Removing this buff from Spellcraft universally could substantially help this matter, but likely has consequences in many areas uninspected by the current exploration.