100% Optional Permadeath Mode

[Sun Wukong]

You're assuming that the target wouldn't want to be brought back.

Actually, it is you who assumes that everyone wants to be raised back to the living.

[NegInfinity]

those who seek to play without.

Speaking of which...

What the heck. It's been repeatedly said that the feature is optional, and if you dislike current setup with permastrikes, well, don't conspire against dukes, don't go out of your way commiting crimes, and don't sell your soul to devils.

[Incarnate]

Furthermore, there could be placed a level penalty for each 10 years that has passed in-game.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but the time on the server is moving at real life speed. One IRL year == one in-game year, despite one day having 4 sunrises this way.

So, by 2028, you'll lose one level. That's awfully generous "penalty". Assuming that Bgtscc will be still around by that time, the world would be at 1364 - past the beginning of time of troubles so losing one level would be the least of your concerns.

If you want a penalty for late resurrection, then a decent one would be losing one level per 2..4 hours, with permadeath either after running out of levels or something like 3 days. Due to bg being a videogame. That would be in line with kidnapping rules, I believe.

I am, which was was why I said those numbers could be changed to fit, but by changing them, they should change every part of the spell respectively - which I tried to point out. So, for instance it could be changed to be an in-game month per casterlevel, this would mean 30 months at maximum, 2½ year. The character would then lose a level per month. It should be within reason so that actual rp can be done without it being too constrained time-wise.

INTERACTABLE & REVERSIBLE.

Not sure what sparked the whole "anti-permadeath" campaign, but permastrikes are a thing, even though there were like 2 people total I personally knew who got permakilled by them. I would prefer them to stay, as a way of enforcing consequences in the world.

A world without consequences is meaningless to play in.

That was Hoihe I believe....However, with the above it would have consequences to die, and depending on exactly what values they would set it to be.
There wouldn't be a need for perma-strikes, because if a character for instance attempted to assinate one, but was killed, then if the character were "out of lives" he'd have to brought back through either of the mentioned spells. This would make dying a lot more consequential.

I doubt there would be an afterlife area for RP as it would put more stress on the server. I mean, it would be kind of interesting to play in a Limbo-environment where death beyond death is meaningless. But I'm pretty sure people would just impatiently fight each other while waiting to be revived into the living world.

I've actually mentioned something like this earlier, or like be able to play as an mindful undead.

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In relation to the topic - why exactly would you want to have this as an option without any gain what so ever?

[NegInfinity]

In relation to the topic - why exactly would you want to have this as an option without any gain what so ever?

For extra fun. Challenge is fun.

I'm aware of exactly one character that made it from 1 to 30 without ever dying even once and that character was combat-oriented.

Of course, having "gain" would be great (the Arelith approach), but I think this option should be available for those who wants it even without any bonuses.

Oh, and "self-enforce permadeath" is not the same, because you have an option to chicken out and say "nah, THIS death doesn't count".

[Hoihe]

With permanent death, you will lack the eyes.

No.

Character death serves as a frame of the painting, defining its boundaries. Which should be fairly obvious.

What started it? The constant attacks on those who seek to play without.

Actually I believe it started with certain other thread which appeared prior to this one.

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Can moderators maybe axe every post that is not related to the original proposition and discussess unrelated matters?

I would like to see optional permadeath feature, but the way thread is going now, it is going to end up being closed instead.

The reason I am campaigning against even an optional feature is to prevent the normalization of the idea of permanent death by creating mechanical support. Once it has mechanical support, it will polarize people even more and that will lead nowhere good. It is better to quell it at the design board.

[Incarnate]

In relation to the topic - why exactly would you want to have this as an option without any gain what so ever?

For extra fun. Challenge is fun.

I'm aware of exactly one character that made it from 1 to 30 without ever dying even once and that character was combat-oriented.

Of course, having "gain" would be great (the Arelith approach), but I think this option should be available for those who wants it even without any bonuses.

Oh, and "self-enforce permadeath" is not the same, because you have an option to chicken out and say "nah, THIS death doesn't count".

I don't really see a reason why it should be a problem having this as COMPLETELY OPTIONAL thing, with the exception of people possibly becoming more tolerant and open to the idea of serverwide permadeath. I can definitely see how it could be abused if there was an increased gain. Especially when you consider this is self-enforced, so when you made the choice it was a binding agreement that was made while being fully aware of the consequences.

Though I do believe it would be a good thing for deaths to be a lot more impactful and immersive, as with what I suggested. If both were implemented, dying wouldn't seem so bad when death would happen alot more, especially to the ones that chose the hardcore path.

[NegInfinity]

it will polarize people even more and that will lead nowhere good. It is better to quell it at the design board.

I'm not seeing this.

If anything, it reminds me of the time where I requested tiefling tails. There was an outrage. "Tails are evil", "Tails are slippery slope", and whatever else. I think one of the people back then was firmly convinced that tails are abominations from hell or something and should be destroyed.

Time has passed, tails got added anyway (without my request), and none of the horrible prophecies I read during time I made my request has happened.

[Incarnate]

it will polarize people even more and that will lead nowhere good. It is better to quell it at the design board.

I'm not seeing this.

If anything, it reminds me of the time where I requested tiefling tails. There was an outrage. "Tails are evil", "Tails are slippery slope", and whatever else. I think one of the people back then was firmly convinced that tails are abominations from hell or something and should be destroyed.

Time has passed, tails got added anyway (without my request), and none of the horrible prophecies I read during time I made my request has happened.

The tails and the serverwide permadeath, are two very, very different things.
Because serverwide permadeath is what Hoihe seeks to prevent, and if just the slightest permadeath was implemented, then it would have the potential to make people tolerate it more and more, the point where it could mean serverwide permadeath being implemented, although that is a very, very remote possibility, but it is there.

[NegInfinity]

The tails and the serverwide permadeath, are two very, very different things.

The reaction is the same.

Also original post does not request server-wide permadeath.

[Incarnate]

The tails and the serverwide permadeath, are two very, very different things.

Also original post does not request server-wide permadeath.

I know it doesn't but I'm saying what Hoihe is getting at, and why Hoihe have said its best to quell it at the design-board.

I can see what Hoihe is getting at, because when you make changes like these, they have the potential to change how people will react in the future to it, in a positive way, so that they become more open to further changes of the same sort, which ultimately could lead to serverwide permadeath.

[chad878262]

there was also a vocal minority against implementing party loot in chests... regardless of the change there will be supporters and detractors. Comparing one to the other is unlikely to have any relevance on what the actual impact would be if any given proposal were implemented.

[Sun Wukong]

There are people on this server who from time to time wish for some added challenge.

In my opinion, the permadeath mode could provide just that. One mistake and the character is gone, which means that each transition, each player or mob encounter could mean the end. Not to mention how taking part in a DM event could be a certain death sentence of its own.

It would completely change the approach you need to take on the server. Not to mention that it could grant something to actually worry about for the willing level 30 characters of this server.

As for those who would not want to risk it all, they would not have to, it is their choice. More power to them.

But for those who want to gamble it all, for those who want to feel the rush of tempting fate, permadeath mode could bring rather interesting challenge - regardless of the character starting out from scrath or with grandfathered mountain of loot and/or experience.

Or what would you think if two willing feuding factions decide to have an all or nothing final battle? A battle where whoever dies, remains dead, a final victory, but at what cost? Doesn't the thought just send shivers of excitement down your back?



Now, peer pressure to accept the permadeath trinket could be an issue, but adults should be able to stand up for their interests. If someone doesn't want to lose it all, more power to them.



But on second thought, I suppose it could be fair if the Permadeath NPC could also remove the trinket. In the case of the above faction conflict, for example.

[NegInfinity]

But on second thought, I suppose it could be fair if the Permadeath NPC could also remove the trinket. In the case of the above faction conflict, for example.

And, upon removal of the trinket, the npc should grant a cursed chiken hat helmet that can't be removed?

I can confirm that playing a permadeath character is a very interesting experience, though I havent' played my arelith char for long. Basically, everybody who is not permadeath char gives impression of being a bloodthirsty murderous lunatic due to their behavior. It is an interesting perspective and a very interesting experience.

[Sun Wukong]

Yeah, it kind of makes you wonder how much lead there is in the server's drinking water.

[Hoihe]

it will polarize people even more and that will lead nowhere good. It is better to quell it at the design board.

I'm not seeing this.

If anything, it reminds me of the time where I requested tiefling tails. There was an outrage. "Tails are evil", "Tails are slippery slope", and whatever else. I think one of the people back then was firmly convinced that tails are abominations from hell or something and should be destroyed.

Time has passed, tails got added anyway (without my request), and none of the horrible prophecies I read during time I made my request has happened.

I'm already seeing this.

Example 1, direct relation: Chad and you cite the existing permadeath rules as proof that "it wouldn't be so bad." The more ammunition you have, the more you can cite as "it wouldn't be so bad" while ignoring the exceptions.

As an exception to the current permadeath rules being "not so bad", I know a player who due to a DM event ended up permakilling*/retiring a PC. If not for the small script leaving the true fate ambigious, the player would have been unable to ask to have the character brought back, which was needed for them to enjoy the game. If permanent death was enforced upon this player, they would never have been able to regain the avenue of enjoyment they now possess.

Example 2, indirect relation: Person on BGTSCC discord claimed that +4 gear should be possessed by level 15 characters.

This was in response to a calculation showing that you needed AC that's beyond and above the AC you could acquire at level 15 (or even level 18) to survive a CR 15 area. Turns out if you wear a full +4 gear get up, this AC is acquirable. Why is this a problem?

Their argument would have been balooney and equivalent to Bill Gates telling a man living in a run down apartment with improper insulation almost freezing to death in winter to "hire some workmen to fix it up." However, by introducing +4 gear to travelling merchants and the hellshop, arguments made in favor of demanding optimized builds become less "crazy" (by comparison.)


Now, you introduce optional permadeath mode ontop of the already existing permadeath rules. You don't even introduce a new thing, rather you start a movement from an existing thing towards an ultimate ideal of "mandatory permanent death with no opt-out." A second step, making optional permanent death opt-out would be easier to get across than the current idea. After that, it's child play to remove the opt-out option.

And it wouldn't become easier because people realize the truth of your gospel. it would become easier because your opposition quits. If you need a direct example, examine Baystation 12's history. It involved 1 mass exodus of High-RPer crowd once to evade the OOC atmosphere, leaving behind more low-RPers with different tastes. Some High-RPers remained, but became minority.

Then they forced a setting change down everoyne's throats and mass-murdered characters through incompatibility, causing a second mass exodus of 30+ people, further homogenizing their player base. And finally they killed off an entire playable alien species, and THEIR playerbase performed an exodus as well - this after they caused a general exodus of most alien players due to the new setting's incompatibility.

To make it even better, the non-alien players claimed roleplay superiority just like the pro-permadeath crowd tends to.