DM Gixustrat wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:32 pm
ValerieJean wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:48 pm
Xorena wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:40 pm
I am OK with pure RP skills being on this list, as was the original intent of the change.
However, skills that benefit your character mechanically should not.
Yes, it's not difficult to get Tumble/Bluff/UMD or whatever if you build creatively. If that is your reasoning then why add these at all? Those builds require a sacrifice of multiclass penalty or losing CL or taking more feats you otherwise would not.
This feels like a bait and switch. I don't like it. This pushes the server much closer to an MMO mentality. Now everyone is going to be a money wizard.
+1
Personally I’m of a similar mind. This isn’t an mmo and no not all classes should be balanced and equal. Dnd is not meant to be configured in that manner.
And here I am with utterly opposite opinion on this matter, it is a great boon to role-play, because there are some players who just feel that they need to have access to certain skills, and the Extra Skill feat is a lovely way to avoid those awkwards dips into base or PRC classes.
I mean I do remember one ancient Paladin/Rogue on this server who had those Rogue levels just to be able to use 'Raise Dead' scrolls on any corpse he encountered. (Before those scrolls were changed so that anyone could use them, with or without UMD.) And when it comes to the large number of Dwarven Defenders this server has seen, some took that three or so level Rogue dip just to have access to either Tumble or UMD, and very rarely did that Rogue dip manifest itself in actual role-play of these Dwarven characters, as it was simply something done for nothing but mechanical reasons or outright necessity. And when Shadowdancer got its 19 Dexterity requirement, well, all those Fighter/Frenzied Berserker/Weapon Master/Shadowdancers became Fighter/Frenzied Berserker/Weapon Master/Rogues overnight -- instead of getting HiPS as anti-mage PvP tool and tumble for extra AC -- they still retained access to Tumble, with 2d6 Sneak Attack dice whenever they flanked in a party, ability to disarm all traps above DC of 20, and access to UMD skill which gave them wands of mantles that required far less skill than timing the use of HiPS... And I do remember how the actual "Rogue" players were rather unhappy that some "FRENZIED BERSERKER" performed their entire role in a party. Some players even felt that there was no need to party up with a Rogue, because the Rogue would slowly skulk around, while the "FRENZIED BERSERKERS" just ran to the next enemy, disarmed the trap on the chest, opened the lock, and it was all said and done before the "Rogue" had even a chance to react. This is probably one of the reason why "Rogue" players even today consider stealth as their one and only bread and butter on this server. Why they are so quick to jump up against 'Extra Skill: Spot, Listen, and whatever else.'
But if we are entirely honest, the players who want that maximized Spot skill will have that maximized Spot skill no matter what. A wisdom based Rogue 3/Cleric 7/
Darkfire Disciple 10/Hierophant 10 with base Caster level of 32 and maximized Spot is already more than possible on this server -- and you can have one WITHOUT a feat spent on Able Learner. Oh, and thanks to summons it can land those flanking Sneak Attacks without a need to form a party, which is why it is a build that can do very well in PvE, and it is even when you do not optimize the AC for thigns like 'Role-Play' reasons.
Thus, I am not really worried about some Cleric getting Spot as a class skill through and Extra Skill feat, because if the player is so inclined, the Cleric character in question would have always had access to it. I mean, I have probably made far more Cleric/Rogues than anyone else on this server... And what I am saying is this, the number of players is finite, and even if someone does nothing but create characters with Spot builds, they can still only play one character at a time.
And generally speaking, a feat spent on Able Learner can net the player character with the following cross class skill ranks: Tumble 10, Spellcraft 10, Open Lock 13. That is +1 AC, +2 saves against spells, and most of the locks opened with just a set of Thieves Tools and a d20 roll for extra experience points. Or they can take the Extra Skill Feat, and get +3 AC, +6 saves against spells, or open every lock they encounter without Thieves Tools. If they want all three skills, it will either cost a total of Three feats, which is only really feasible as a Fighter or a Ranger, or they just take a three level dip into Rogue, or some other class with the Able Learner feat, and probably gain a plethora of other mechanical benefits.
The Extra Skill Feats are literally Role-Play feats, and it is far easier to come up with an explanation why a character has trained himself in particular skill, rather than it is to explain why a character has a more or less random three level dip of some class for no other reason than mechanical advantage.
