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Re: The Bladesinger PRC
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:33 am
by Valefort
What if we forbid multiclassing with eldritch knight ?
After all things only get complicated, balance wise, when we're talking about wizard/EK/ Bladesinger I think. Problem being two full BAB, full spell progression PRCs.
What could be the worse powerbuilds with Bladesinger if EK is out of the window ?
First thing that comes to my mind is wiz 10 / Bladesinger 10 / Dragonslayer 10, in fact usual gish builds we have now, except you replace EK with Bladesinger.
Re: The Bladesinger PRC
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:42 am
by chad878262
Valefort wrote:What if we forbid multiclassing with eldritch knight ?
After all things only get complicated, balance wise, when we're talking about wizard/EK/ Bladesinger I think. Problem being two full BAB, full spell progression PRCs.
What could be the worse powerbuilds with Bladesinger if EK is out of the window ?
First thing that comes to my mind is wiz 10 / Bladesinger 10 / Dragonslayer 10, in fact usual gish builds we have now, except you replace EK with Bladesinger.
The problem is, if you give BS full progression or even 9/10 it is still superior to EK in every way. EK gives up 1 CL and gets high BAB and d6 HP... Bladesinger gets high BAB, d6 HP and a bunch of other perks, so why ever take EK over BS? That's why I say it has to give up something more and, IMO it is more on par with DragonSlayer than it is with EK.
Re: The Bladesinger PRC
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:03 am
by Invoker
chad878262 wrote:Valefort wrote:What if we forbid multiclassing with eldritch knight ?
After all things only get complicated, balance wise, when we're talking about wizard/EK/ Bladesinger I think. Problem being two full BAB, full spell progression PRCs.
What could be the worse powerbuilds with Bladesinger if EK is out of the window ?
First thing that comes to my mind is wiz 10 / Bladesinger 10 / Dragonslayer 10, in fact usual gish builds we have now, except you replace EK with Bladesinger.
The problem is, if you give BS full progression or even 9/10 it is still superior to EK in every way. EK gives up 1 CL and gets high BAB and d6 HP... Bladesinger gets high BAB, d6 HP and a bunch of other perks, so why ever take EK over BS? That's why I say it has to give up something more and, IMO it is more on par with DragonSlayer than it is with EK.
Actually, I am fairly sure the problem is the spellbook.
It would probably be better, balance-wise, to make Bladesinger a base class, with its own spellbook, and make it into something akin to what Paladins are.
That would remove the problem of the undispellable high BAB gish which also casts like a full lvl 30 arcanist (vs a character nobody can play because CR 5 Batiiri dispel it...), and it would also destroy the multiclassing options (put some key abilities in the epics, and delay the spell progression a bit like Paladin itself)
It goes without saying that Mirror Images shouldn't be in that spellbook. It shouldn't even be in the game, tbh.
Re: The Bladesinger PRC
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:35 am
by Valefort
How about this ?
[th]
[/th][th]
[/th][tr][td]Bladesinger[/td][td]
Bladesinger
Bladesingers are elves who have blended art, swordplay, and arcane magic into a
harmonious whole. In battle, a bladesinger’s lithe movements and subtle tactics seem beautiful, belying their deadly martial efficiency. Bladesingers have a treasured place in elf society, balancing the joys of art and magic with the skill of masterful fighting, and so bladesingers are well-respected by other elves. They usually serve as itinerant guardians and champions of the elf community at large rather than tying themselves to one particular settlement. Multiclass fighter/wizards can become bladesingers most easily, though any elf who can wield a martial weapon and cast arcane spells can become a bladesinger.
Bladesinging ranger/wizards, rogue/wizards, and bladesinger bards are not unknown.
Most bladesingers work alone, sufficient unto themselves, but in larger communities they sometimes have the opportunity to fight together in the same combat. Bladesingers are normally trained singly by another bladesinger, and the concept of anything as formalized as a bladesinger school is an absurd notion to them.
Requirements:
Feats: Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Weapon Focus (Longsword or Rapier), Still Spell
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Race: Elf
Spellcasting: Able to cast arcane spells of 1st level.
Skills: Concentration 4, Perform 3, Tumble 2
Class Features:
-
Hit Die: d8
-
Base Attack Bonus: High.
-
High Saves: Reflex, Will.
-
Weapon Proficiencies: None
-
Armor Proficiencies: Light.
-
Skill Points: 4 + Int modifier.
-
Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft Weapon, Craft Armor, Lore: Arcana, Lore: History, Lore: Local, Lore: Nobility & Royalty, Lore: Religion, Parry, Perform, Spellcraft, Tumble.
Class Abilities:
Level 1: Bladesong Style, Spellcasting Progression
Level 2:
Level 3:
Level 4: Bonus Feat
Level 5:
Level 6:
Level 7: Song of Celerity
Level 8:
Level 9:
Level 10: Greater Spellsong
-
Spellcasting: At every odd level and 10th level you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane or divine spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. If you had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a Bladesinger, you must decide which class gains the increased casting ability. (so 6/10 progression).
-
Bladesong Style: When wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other), a bladesinger gains a dodge bonus to Armor Class equal to her class level, up to a maximum of her Intelligence bonus. If the bladesinger wears medium or heavy armor, she loses all benefits of the bladesong style. This bonus will not stack with the AC bonus granted by Invisible Blade or Duelist.
-
Song of Celerity (Ex): A bladesinger can imbue his sword with spells he memorized, only one spell at a time can be imbued within the weapon. It is cast at the target on a successful melee attack. (not sure it's doable but I'll try to do it)
-
Greater Spellsong (Ex): A bladesinger of 10th level ignores arcane spell failure chances when wearing light armor (ie granting
Armored caster feat.
-
Bonus Feat: At 4th level, the bladesinger gets a bonus feat. These feats must be drawn from the following list: any metamagic feat, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical (Weapon), Improved Disarm, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack.
[/td][/tr][/table]
Re: The Bladesinger PRC
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:43 am
by BigJ
The notion gishes are squishy is mistaken.
I've been playing a Gish in the UD (wizard base) the past few weeks and he is far from squishy. I solo areas above my CR, I haven't come close to dying. I've been dispelled and carried on fighting. I have mirror image still spelled but hardly ever cast it, its sort of my backup, I'm in trouble now spell, hardly used it.
I'm lvl 19 currently, with +4 boots but a +3 Deflection item. My ac is 44, with 2 more to come from upgrading to +4 and a class feature. My active bab is 30 with 3 attacks (base 15), my damage output is fine, especially with a summon (lvl 8 spells at the moment).
If you want to improve Gishes then advocate improving the EK PrC.
But if this Bladesinger PrC is brought is as suggested, as we have already confirmed Drow can qualify under 3.5e, then I am immediately RCR'ing at 50% loss of xp because it is massively OP.
My current gish build cannot take autostill till lvl 25 because of the spellcraft requirement (27), and that is just for spells 0-3. A class that can get full autostill (0-9) in the mid teens and therefore extra epic spells? Plus a huge ac bonus whilst wearing armour? Plus quickened spells? Sign me up. sign everyone up.
Maybe remove the spellcraft requirement for autostill and add a few things to EK if you want to make gishes better.
Or drastically reduce this proposed PrC so it can be brought in for RP purposes. Forget the mixed bags of rules that seem to surround this class in 2e/3e/3.5e, and create something brand new to fit the RP needs. Valeforts is a start, but no free ASF casting.
BigJ
Re: The Bladesinger PRC
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:10 am
by chad878262
Valefort wrote:How about this ?
[th]
[/th][th]
[/th][tr][td]Bladesinger[/td][td]
Bladesinger
Bladesingers are elves who have blended art, swordplay, and arcane magic into a
harmonious whole. In battle, a bladesinger’s lithe movements and subtle tactics seem beautiful, belying their deadly martial efficiency. Bladesingers have a treasured place in elf society, balancing the joys of art and magic with the skill of masterful fighting, and so bladesingers are well-respected by other elves. They usually serve as itinerant guardians and champions of the elf community at large rather than tying themselves to one particular settlement. Multiclass fighter/wizards can become bladesingers most easily, though any elf who can wield a martial weapon and cast arcane spells can become a bladesinger.
Bladesinging ranger/wizards, rogue/wizards, and bladesinger bards are not unknown.
Most bladesingers work alone, sufficient unto themselves, but in larger communities they sometimes have the opportunity to fight together in the same combat. Bladesingers are normally trained singly by another bladesinger, and the concept of anything as formalized as a bladesinger school is an absurd notion to them.
Requirements:
Feats: Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Weapon Focus (Longsword or Rapier), Still Spell
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Race: Elf
Spellcasting: Able to cast arcane spells of 1st level.
Skills: Concentration 4, Perform 3, Tumble 2
Class Features:
-
Hit Die: d8
-
Base Attack Bonus: High.
-
High Saves: Reflex, Will.
-
Weapon Proficiencies: None
-
Armor Proficiencies: Light.
-
Skill Points: 4 + Int modifier.
-
Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft Weapon, Craft Armor, Lore: Arcana, Lore: History, Lore: Local, Lore: Nobility & Royalty, Lore: Religion, Parry, Perform, Spellcraft, Tumble.
Class Abilities:
Level 1: Bladesong Style, Spellcasting Progression
Level 2:
Level 3:
Level 4: Bonus Feat
Level 5:
Level 6:
Level 7: Song of Celerity
Level 8:
Level 9:
Level 10: Greater Spellsong
-
Spellcasting: At every odd level and 10th level you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane or divine spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. If you had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a Bladesinger, you must decide which class gains the increased casting ability. (so 6/10 progression).
-
Bladesong Style: When wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other), a bladesinger gains a dodge bonus to Armor Class equal to her class level, up to a maximum of her Intelligence bonus. If the bladesinger wears medium or heavy armor, she loses all benefits of the bladesong style. This bonus will not stack with the AC bonus granted by Invisible Blade or Duelist.
-
Song of Celerity (Ex): A bladesinger can imbue his sword with spells he memorized, only one spell at a time can be imbued within the weapon. It is cast at the target on a successful melee attack. (not sure it's doable but I'll try to do it)
-
Greater Spellsong (Ex): A bladesinger of 10th level ignores arcane spell failure chances when wearing light armor (ie granting
Armored caster feat.
-
Bonus Feat: At 4th level, the bladesinger gets a bonus feat. These feats must be drawn from the following list: any metamagic feat, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical (Weapon), Improved Disarm, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack.
[/td][/tr][/table]
I think I like Invoker's suggestion of making it a base class better, though I would maybe put it somewhere between a bard and a wizard, rather than a paladin, to take an idea from a previous poster about going to 7th level spells, perhaps give them something akin to a bard where they can cast up to level 7 arcane spells, but they memorize like a wizard instead of a sorc and then just make a requirement that their opposition school must be illusion and necromancy (or something like that).
If we were to go the PRC route, I do have a concern with the dodge AC gained based on class level/Intelligence... Up to +10 dodge AC is too much IMO. I am picturing a 16 DEX (20 after cat's grace) max INT Bladesinger with Mithral Breastplate and +4 dodge/deflection items casting IMA and Shadowshield, Haste, Displacement etc. and being essentially untouchable. 10+10 (MBP w/ 20 dex) +12 (dodge/deflection/shield) +5 (shadow shield/natural) +6 (IMA) + 10 (INT/BladeSinger) + 1 (haste) = 54 w/out LoH, ICE, etc... on top of mirror images, deez's/displacement, and damage reduction. What if they take the one hander feat? I can see this AC getting really high by some smart build decisions mixing feats/epic items and spells. Maybe make the dodge AC 1/2 the Bladesinger class levels (max +5)? Gishes have so many defenses, making free AC a tough sell in my opinion.
CL 6/10 I can get behind, especially since without taking all 10 levels the class is much less attractive, due to the high feats cost (using 5 of 9 feats in pre-epics assuming 10 levels of wizard and no fighter levels) and the relatively lower value abilities earned prior to 10. Thinking through a build in my head, the bonus feats the wizard may select would be Combat Casting and Still Spell at 5 and 10. The PC will also need to either take Martial Weapon Proficiency or take levels in a class that gains those weapons, even if he wasn't going EK (at least if Rapier was the prefered weapon). Extend Spell could be taken as the bladesinger level 4 bonus feat, but the character also needs practiced caster, so in all likelihood the character has only 2 feats to select as unique to his/her character. Few ways to go, but ICE and Feint might be good picks, or perhaps Deadly Defense to add some extra damage. In my opinion this is all fair, still allows the BS to get some extra punch to damage, which is often where Gishes struggle. As I said, the biggest issue for me is with the AC... Perhaps to Invokers point w/ regard to Mirror Images you state the Bladesinger must select an opposition school of Illusion, though I am not certain that makes sense it would certainly add some limitations to the buffing with no Mirror Images, Displacement or Deez's repulsive shadow, etc.
Re: The Bladesinger PRC
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:53 am
by Valefort
Max +5 INT to AC why not, it'll still be strong.
Re: The Bladesinger PRC
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:54 am
by Tantive
How much melee damage and AC will it have without buffs?
And this talk is ofcourse depending on Rapier and Longsword type chosen. An issue that wasn't much solved in pnp making rapier superior in every other way.
Your suggestion however Valefort, in regards to song of celerity will be making it a duskblade class instead of bladesinger. And song of Fury is gone?
Re: The Bladesinger PRC
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:01 am
by Valefort
If we go with the build chad talks about, which is probably the most optimized one, we're at, without spells :
10 (base) + 3 (DEX, unbuffed) + 5 (mithral breastplate) + 5 (INT to AC) + 4 (dodge, deflection) + 3 (tumble) = 31 AC, 34 with CE on.
But nothing prevents this guy from equipping AC items like everyone and thus go add +4 (armor enchant) and +4 (natural) + 2 (DEX item ) = 41 AC, 44 AC with CE on.
With spells it would be 31 + 6 (IMA) +5 (shadow shield) + 4 (shield spell) + 2 (DEX buffed) = 48 AC, 49 with haste, 52 with CE.
Nothing overly high anymore imo.
Re: The Bladesinger PRC
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:08 am
by chad878262
Valefort wrote:If we go with the build chad talks about, which is probably the most optimized one, we're at, without spells :
10 (base) + 3 (DEX, unbuffed) + 5 (mithral breastplate) + 5 (INT to AC) + 4 (dodge, deflection) + 3 (tumble) = 31 AC, 34 with CE on.
But nothing prevents this guy from equipping AC items like everyone and thus go add +4 (armor enchant) and +4 (natural) + 2 (DEX item ) = 41 AC, 44 AC with CE on.
With spells it would be 31 + 6 (IMA) +5 (shadow shield) + 4 (shield spell) + 2 (DEX buffed) = 48 AC, 49 with haste, 52 with CE.
Nothing overly high anymore imo.
Agreed. I would actually say there is not necessarily a need for making mirror images/illusion spells band from the class based on this. I do agree with Big J though that free armored caster is making this very strong, perhaps we could lower the requirements for auto-still (definitely requires it's own balance discussion, but based on divine gishes I don't think it would be bad to reduce the spellcraft requirements, or even change the feat line to only require two feats instead of 3 (Auto-still 0-5 and Auto-still 6-9, for example). In any case, it's a separate discussion...
Re: The Bladesinger PRC
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:24 am
by Tantive
BigJ wrote:The notion gishes are squishy is mistaken.
I've been playing a Gish in the UD (wizard base) the past few weeks and he is far from squishy. I solo areas above my CR, I haven't come close to dying. I've been dispelled and carried on fighting. I have mirror image still spelled but hardly ever cast it, its sort of my backup, I'm in trouble now spell, hardly used it.
I'm lvl 19 currently, with +4 boots but a +3 Deflection item. My ac is 44, with 2 more to come from upgrading to +4 and a class feature. My active bab is 30 with 3 attacks (base 15), my damage output is fine, especially with a summon (lvl 8 spells at the moment).
If you are playing from the get go with a twinked out character, ofcourse you are going to get a completely different experience for survivability in earlier levels. This is true for every class that engages in melee. So tell me, what armor piece is he wearing? Are you buffing in cloth, then swapping armor piece?
You are not getting 30 BAB from any wizard spell. Tensers Transformation doesn't give you it. It may help you get towards the +20 AB limit, but the spell at the same time makes any benefit Bladesinger has in regards to spellcasting moot.
If Int has a maximum to be benefited from to 20 for +5, then like optimisers do, its easy enough to qualify for such a thing as Shadow Dancer, or using a Mithral Chain Shirt which has a max +6 dex dexterity bonus. And you can already get mithral items like it with 0 arcane failure.
Re: The Bladesinger PRC
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:47 am
by BigJ
Tantive wrote:BigJ wrote:The notion gishes are squishy is mistaken.
I've been playing a Gish in the UD (wizard base) the past few weeks and he is far from squishy. I solo areas above my CR, I haven't come close to dying. I've been dispelled and carried on fighting. I have mirror image still spelled but hardly ever cast it, its sort of my backup, I'm in trouble now spell, hardly used it.
I'm lvl 19 currently, with +4 boots but a +3 Deflection item. My ac is 44, with 2 more to come from upgrading to +4 and a class feature. My active bab is 30 with 3 attacks (base 15), my damage output is fine, especially with a summon (lvl 8 spells at the moment).
If you are playing from the get go with a twinked out character, ofcourse you are going to get a completely different experience for survivability in earlier levels. This is true for every class that engages in melee. So tell me, what armor piece is he wearing? Are you buffing in cloth, then swapping armor piece?
You are not getting 30 BAB from any wizard spell. Tensers Transformation doesn't give you it. It may help you get towards the +20 AB limit, but the spell at the same time makes any benefit Bladesinger has in regards to spellcasting moot.
If Int has a maximum to be benefited from to 20 for +5, then like optimisers do, its easy enough to qualify for such a thing as Shadow Dancer, or using a Mithral Chain Shirt which has a max +6 dex dexterity bonus. And you can already get mithral items like it with 0 arcane failure.
Every wizard class struggles early levels. I for one RcR'd / perma'd my main char to build this one.
Armour piece - Mithral Chain Shirt (6/4 light armor). I have 14 dex + Cats grace for 18.
Bab - 15 + 6 (Str 18 + bulls), + 5 (GMW), + 4 Grt Heroism. Items make no difference.
No Tensers involded, I don't use it.
I did not min / max. I started with 17 int, 10 wis, 12 cha. He's an intelligent diplomat for RP reasons, I just needed him good enough to handle the PvE and you know what, he does.
Yes I get dispelled sometimes. No I did not die.
BigJ
Re: The Bladesinger PRC
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:19 am
by Tantive
Just to make you aware BigJ, you confused BAB with AB earlier.
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Base_attack_bonus
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Attacks_per_round
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_bonus
+20 AB extra is a hard cap coded in the nwn2 engine. And only things that increase BAB could exceed it further.
Re: The Bladesinger PRC
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:19 pm
by Tantive
I have a request for our programming and scripting wiz's on BGSTCC for the investigation of a possibility.
Currently, in the case of normal and auto Quicken Spells, it would fire off in the beginning of the next round, leaving it without any melee in a form like this, but leave room for a second cast of a spell.
Initiative [Melee Flurry/Flurry/Flurry|Cast Quickenned Spell/No melee/(Cast normal spell?)|Melee Flurry/Flurry/Flurry]
............ [Que Quickenned spell]
Is it a possibility to code a feat to have 'quickened like' spell work like this? Or in any way to have spellcasting in the same round as melee?
Initiative [Melee Flurry/Flurry/Flurry|Melee Flurry/Flurry/Flurry|Melee Flurry/Flurry/Flurry]
............ [Que 'Quickenned' spell...|Cast 'Quickenned' spell]
Re: The Bladesinger PRC
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:13 pm
by BigJ
Oops, there I go again with my typing, that extra 'b' was a typo. It should have read:
"My active 'AB' is 30 with 3 attacks (base 15), my damage output is fine"
But I your are right, I should use Tenser's more to up my AB to the cap limit for a few minutes, making it 35, I just haven't had the need so far.
I assume by asking about that quicken info is so a Bladesinger can cast its 1/day quickened spell in the same round as melee? Or are we moving away from pnp/books to something homebrewed for bgtscc?
I only ask because as I stated earlier in the thread, in 2e Bladesingers were slower at casting spells than wizards. In 3e they had there own assassin like spell book with max lvl 4 spells but could quicken those spells. In 3.5e they had the wizard spellbook at 5/10 but could only quicken 1 spell a day.
If we are homebrewing now I do have a good idea for the class, if its worth posting.
BigJ