Do we want more consequences/realism in game?

[aaron22]

Good dms know how to weaken a fvs same can be done with a bard. A clever DM can also make the rp based toon hero of the day. These are not uncommon tools.

The difference is when a DM requests the survival skill and it passes and the group moves to the next stage. The group doesn't see what would have happened had it failed. When the super beast rises up and the fvs, DD, and arch mage take it out. The group sees the bad thing and it appears that the fvs, DD, arch mage are the hero's when the Ranger that passed the survival roll actually saved the group from the mega super beast that would have eaten the whole group.

Also. Stop complaining about the railroad. It is NEEDED sometimes because the players do dumb stuff and need to be moved along to the FUN . Railroad abuse is not common from the DMs that I have had encounters with.

[Vogar Eol]

I voted no, for reasons much like Valefort and others have stated.

Really, I don't believe this server to have real problems right now. It's still alive after years. It still has enough people playing to be popular. It still has DMs who are active, and care about the health of the playerbase.

What we have is a perception that problems exist. Perceptions do not equal reality. There are as many unique perceptions of this server as there are people who know about this server. We've all had our own unique circumstances and experiences that enable use to view the same exact things differently. Each of these unique perspectives is just as real as the next.

Where the problems really start is when we try and use our personal experiences and stories as facts rather then opinions or viewpoints. The human mind estimates. Specifically there is a heuristic called the "availablity heuristic" where we falsely weigh things. In the Availability Heuristic, the more readily you can think of an example of something, the more common you BELIEVE that something happens. If 90% of your friends are allergic to peanuts, you tend to believe the peanut allergy is much more common than it really is. Why? Because you can think of examples. We also have people who are more vocal about various issues. Simply having passionate proponents doesn't mean that viewpoint is statistically held by more people.. Estimate biases also come into play.

I think we have to realize how good we have it here, and simply try not to shoot ourselves in the foot. If it works, why risk changing the formula?

[Steve]

Boosting Skill Points is not difficult, especially if you see your Character as focusing in a particular area of knowledge, instead of, being a walking Encyclopedia (or a bard ).

But seriously, the way DCs are calculated in D&D, having a base 33 pts in the NWN2 specific way, MOSTLY is used when those Skills have a mechanical benefit.

You *could* make very good use of 10–15 pts in Diplomacy or Lore—in order to have as much storyline effect as mechanical battle wins get—by looking at how DCs are used in D&D:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm

Knowledge (Int; Trained Only)

Like the Craft and Profession skills, Knowledge actually encompasses a number of unrelated skills. Knowledge represents a study of some body of lore, possibly an academic or even scientific discipline.

Below are listed typical fields of study.

• Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
• Architecture and engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications)
• Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking)
• Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people)
• History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities)
• Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
• Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin)
• Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities)
• Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)
• The planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes)

Check
Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.


Action
Usually none. In most cases, making a Knowledge check doesn’t take an action—you simply know the answer or you don’t.


Try Again
No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place.


Synergy

• If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (arcana), you get a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks.
• If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering), you get a +2 bonus on Search checks made to find secret doors or hidden compartments.
• If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (geography), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made to keep from getting lost or to avoid natural hazards.
• If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), you get a +2 bonus on bardic knowledge checks.
• If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (local), you get a +2 bonus on Gather Information checks.
• If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (nature), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made in aboveground natural environments (aquatic, desert, forest, hill, marsh, mountains, or plains).
• If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (nobility and royalty), you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.
• If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion), you get a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.
• If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (the planes), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made while on other planes.
• If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (dungeoneering), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made while underground.
• If you have 5 or more ranks in Survival, you get a +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) checks.

Untrained
An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

I really do not think it is impossible, neither difficult, to create storylines/events/moments where any build can be challenged, and...the ACTUAL UNIQUENESS we can find in all builds, can be utilized to find one of the solutions, to the danger/dilemma proposed by the DM or the Storyline.

I know...because I've done it myself for Players!!!

[AlwaysSummer Day]

Good dms know how to weaken a fvs same can be done with a bard. A clever DM can also make the rp based toon hero of the day. These are not uncommon tools.

The difference is when a DM requests the survival skill and it passes and the group moves to the next stage. The group doesn't see what would have happened had it failed. When the super beast rises up and the fvs, DD, and arch mage take it out. The group sees the bad thing and it appears that the fvs, DD, arch mage are the hero's when the Ranger that passed the survival roll actually saved the group from the mega super beast that would have eaten the whole group.

Also. Stop complaining about the railroad. It is NEEDED sometimes because the players do dumb stuff and need to be moved along to the FUN . Railroad abuse is not common from the DMs that I have had encounters with.

I have never seen a dm able to "weaken" a fvs in a combat scenario without doing even more damage to other characters but I have seen that claim a -LOT -

Yes I agree but the problem is that both the ranger and the bard pass the skill check. The bard is the jack of all skills and master of all skills.

Also "complaining"? Stop crying about people having a different opinion. It is childish.

[dedude]

I would settle for some interesting story/plot. I couldn't care less about challenging the FvS in combat. You can find that anywhere on the server outside dm events.

[aaron22]

I have never seen a dm able to "weaken" a fvs in a combat scenario without doing even more damage to other characters but I have seen that claim a -LOT

Ok so the DM creates a battle. Then another battle. Check abd see how much the Fvs spell book he has used. Keep challenging the party enough to have the Fvs use his spell book. Don't allow rest and his smaller spell book will be expended. And the bard will have likely used most of his songs. The sorcerer and cleric will likely still have spells left. The fighters rogues and warlocks will be 100%. Now the Fvs and bard are almost liabilities. I have been with one DM that employed this technique. It was a hard adventure and the Fvs was BEGGING for a rest stop. Lol

[AlwaysSummer Day]

Standard fvs build is low DC high spell slot. They get more slots than sorcerers (edit: they get the same amount per day but fewer known). I have been in events with lots of dispells and the sorcerer loses their buffs and is screwed, the fvs loses their buffs and has the strength to carry consumables + armor + weapon + more spells + better saves. Bard songs and skills cannot be dispelled. Clerics do OK but have worse saves thus are hit harder by spell attrition than fvs.

[aaron22]

Fvs and bards use there buffs early and oftengor survival. Sorcs stay back and save their bombs for when they need it. They just don't get dispelled unless they are under level. Bards will typically use songs if there are a lot of enemies. The fighter types may use a number of heal pots and some of the many kits they have. But really will be close to good. Of course the lock will be fine. The cleric may have used a Rez or two a summon and buffs. Plenty of spells left. Same with the shammy and wizzy. The only ones that will be hurting is the classes that have smaller spell books and/or lower cls because of dispelling. Fvs bard and PB dips. Solo building a Fvs is way different than event building an Fvs. An even built Fvs will be slightly weaker for soloing but the increase in cl will keep the buffs going through the dispels. Of course if the cleric and Mage refresh buffs for the Fvs it wil go longer stronger. But now it still is no better than anything else and the party has become weaker because of this. Hence liability.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

fvs powerbuilds have 30CL and they buff at the same rate or less than sorcerers thanks to armor, hp, and saves. Far less once the sorcerer dies a few times in fact. Not sure why you think fvs powerbuilds have low CL. Clerics are close up and fighting as well so they lose their buffs at the same rate presumably through attrition. If you are talking about spell breaches and mords getting thrown around then once again they won't exclusively target the fvs. They target everyone and the sorcerer is left wearing a dress and wielding a club while the fvs has mithral FP on, a hvy shield, and a decent weapon along with all three saves still in the 40's. The fact that you feel DM's have to specifically target the fvs and focus the event on weakening them just demonstrates my point btw.

Wizards are different from sorcerers though. They are not blasters. They can use invis and wait half AFK during the fights and hope the DM gives them a puzzle to solve or a spell to cast later on. The worst two things with this is when the bard beats the wiz to the spell/problem and when the DM didn't intend for it to be solved so railroads alters the fabric of the event so the correct answer/action makes no difference.

This conversation is totally off topic though. The point of my post was that stricter consequences encourage powerbuilding which is a drawback in my opinion. As much as I'd like things like raise dead scrolls to be player crafted only and require UMD or divine levels to use I have to keep that drawback in mind when it comes to the base mechanics and pvp consequences.

Oh and again it is up to DM's if they want to implement event consequences. Whether they all get together and give us a single notice or if they individually warn people before their own events it is their choice (some already do). Even if 100/100 people vote for more severe consequences you cannot force DM_____ to perma kill anyone for failing a save. That is their decision or perhaps the head admins decision if someone gets a little too rule breaking.

[7threalm]

I had never had a serious consequence from a dm, I think the most was -2 shift to evil, though i don't play 2nd life type charaters that is must likely the reason i dont it to personal. I would like more consequences and I am not super attached to my charaters so a dm says you lost your hands or something that is alright.

One time i requested to have my paladin perma killed off, and it was denied by the dm staff I roleplayed him at least 6 months to..

but those were darker days for the server, things do seem a lot better now

I remember one event from long ago, we did some evil stuff and the dm shifted everyone in the group for allowing it happen.

Players started to complain about -2 points and the event just went sour and turn into an ooc complainfest.

I just shook my head and teleport ed out.

[aaron22]

we have delved away from topic and I do agree that there is a balance issue regarding a few builds. I also think that dms have enough skill to work through it. I would not like to see bgtscc become only Druids warlocks Fvs and str bards. Because events are hard core. The only way to not have to delete your toon in an event that is geared to challenge the power builds is to stay back and self preserve. I like my "feel builds". Sure I optimize the idea, but they are never perfect power builds. I also want to be able to participate. I think some concessions could be made to make cleric builds needed. How many pnp groups would form without a cleric. How many mmorpg raids would form without solid heals. This game is something in between imho. Maybe rezzes should be set to specific classes only. No scrolls. Or scroll use comes with massive penalties. I am sure that would not really go over very well though.

Off topic I would also like to see more variations of the benefits the bard gives. Bard doesn't always fit with all races. Looking for that grey Orc bard. Stretch.

[Invoker]

First of all, clearing the air from some widely spread misinformation.

Ok so the DM creates a battle. Then another battle. Check abd see how much the Fvs spell book he has used. Keep challenging the party enough to have the Fvs use his spell book. Don't allow rest and his smaller spell book will be expended. And the bard will have likely used most of his songs. The sorcerer and cleric will likely still have spells left. The fighters rogues and warlocks will be 100%. Now the Fvs and bard are almost liabilities. I have been with one DM that employed this technique. It was a hard adventure and the Fvs was BEGGING for a rest stop. Lol

Done this multiple times, in my DM tenure. It basically ensures everyone to have fun, kill their fair share and feel useful throughout the entire event. It doesn't take much time, either, if you do it right.

I have been in events with lots of dispells and the sorcerer loses their buffs and is screwed, the fvs loses their buffs and has the strength to carry consumables + armor + weapon + more spells + better saves. Bard songs and skills cannot be dispelled.

Expert Sorcerers don't use many buffs. They use their spells to attack. A caster's best defense is positioning, and it's very easy to position yourself in a party of 4+.

Bard songs and skills aren't a problem, being party-wide: they are a solution.

Clerics do OK but have worse saves thus are hit harder by spell attrition than fvs.

I think some concessions could be made to make cleric builds needed. How many pnp groups would form without a cleric. How many mmorpg raids would form without solid heals. This game is something in between imho. Maybe rezzes should be set to specific classes only. No scrolls. Or scroll use comes with massive penalties. I am sure that would not really go over very well though.

I don't know if we're talking about another game, but in NWN2, high Wisdom, caster clerics aren't inferior to anyone or anything. And I am talking about "Joe, the lvl 30 cleric" here, not even considering Hierophant (which makes a caster cleric devastating).

Suffer "spell attrition"?!? Really? With Silence as a spell available, and long-term Spell Resistance? No way.

The only "problem" with cleric and wizard, is that you need to be able to play them, because "right click ftw" and "memorize the same spell 15 times for spam" won't perform nearly as well as other classes.

----------------------------------------------------------

On topic:

I would settle for some interesting story/plot.

I think that's what a lot of people would love to see more and more (it DOES happen, at times): "realism" as in real (within the hypothetical reality of the setting, of course) consequences for the world itself, and thus the characters in it, based on those very characters' decisions.

I don't think many would care for mechanics portraying eating/drinking/fatigue and whatnot.

[Pimple]

I had never had a serious consequence from a dm, I think the most was -2 shift to evil, though i don't play 2nd life type charaters that is must likely the reason i dont it to personal. I would like more consequences and I am not super attached to my charaters so a dm says you lost your hands or something that is alright.

One time i requested to have my paladin perma killed off, and it was denied by the dm staff I roleplayed him at least 6 months to..

but those were darker days for the server, things do seem a lot better now

I remember one event from long ago, we did some evil stuff and the dm shifted everyone in the group for allowing it happen.

Players started to complain about -2 points and the event just went sour and turn into an ooc complainfest.

I just shook my head and teleport ed out.

I thought it was the most awesome thing ever when I got 2 evil points. It was also nice when I got 2 good points on another character, for entirely different reasons. Not sure we were that good in that event, but it made me laugh xD

The only thing you can really do about such derps is consider whether you want to be playin with them in the future

[Heimdallr]

As to RP realism...
I've lost many friends, good RP friends here, because they just went to lower pop. servers on which consequences...well they existed.

What do hurt my eyes here? Many things, yet this server has great potential and I can't get why it shoots arrow to it's own knee.

What extremely hurts my eyes:
-Paladins that are fine when they can see evil gods worshippers/faul magic
-Paladins totally hanging out with warlocks
-Paladins hanging out with demon form warlocks
-Totally not neutral druids
-People that trust warlocks and hang out with them without any problem, totally not suspicious that someone who sold his soul to get powers, most likely would like to get rid of you or sthing.
-Warlocks totally hanging out with other people and being uber social - Just read warlock class and your character please...it does not hurt to rp that way, or at least be close to it.
-All kind of evil/chaotic beings...that are a happy family in FAI - this is terrible, how you want to create bigger groups of Dark Hold, Roaring or other place, if you can just enjoy being good in Fai with your bad char? No separatism means, that people do not need to stay away from such places, and settle others and act from there.
I have listened to a lot of talk like - we plan destruction, we must use them...typical talking. For last year I have noticed nothing that would even go into that way.
-Last dwarves that I remember, and that were real dwarves, and most true gray Orcs stopped playing because of abovementioned things - I really do miss them just spitting on themselves, brawling or just doing ambushes whenever they did spot each other. Typical, healthy, low int guys rp or rp pvp out their chars, or just rping their chars vs others
-I have noticed people, that gank other constantly without any consequences - Imho there should be a 3rd strike rule, If you would be defeated by same person 3 times in a MONTH in open pvp, you are permed. Mindlessly striking others is bad.
-Too many people break their concept just to do some fluffy rp, no one cares about warlocks, warlocks are super friendly, all love good necromancers and vice versa, Tieflings the same, why people think they are fluffy...and why do fluffy thieflings do not act at all like Tieflings?
same goes to orcs...
-Last but not the least are super pleasant UD races...but this I might understand as the problem between connections from ud/surface is a tight grip on ud and ud looks like a family now, just to play and rp with each other, because it is pretty dead.

Many people do not keep their race/character rp at all, Imho consequences should be an exp penalty so people would keep up with their concepts, both in the way of rping out their character and to become more sceptical and even aggressive vs other classes/races.

Even if it sound like I would expect something too big from players, to just RP what is in the character sheet, I believe that a good rules on server+dm striking with -exp would help people learn that fast. It would be a typical Adapt - It was introduced, people will follow, nothing special and server would at least fill this gap.

And yes, it all might sound like hard stereotype rp...but you go either left or right.

One thing worth mentioning is that people are cool to each other, I get that, but no one will cry or be mad at you, because your character killed a player character or was racist/unpleasant did not want to help. Imho it is better to keep your concept up that breaking it to be kind.

I was defeated many times, on different characters in pvp and in 99,9% people were whispering me, that they are sorry, asked me to not get it wrong but it's their char concept and we are cool. I really get it, but it pretty sounds like...people do not want to be different than super friendly...because they can hurt someone's feelings..come on:<

As to realism and consequences different than just character/class/race rp - I would like to see dms playing more like a gods instead of friends. I would like to get on a quest on which dm is just playing with char, like - you can go there - and if player chooses to act that way, dm would just roll a die, for example it was 3 of 6, it sounds like it spawns some mobs, you know - more random actions, more consequences from dm/world side. Quests aren't about things what you expect, but they should be more about things that you do not expect.

Give it a try and believe me, it will be better;]
(if you can read this point it means that you really have read that all - that was hell of an essay right? thanks for reading)

[Side]

Two things I'd like to comment on.

-People that trust warlocks and hang out with them without any problem, totally not suspicious that someone who sold his soul to get powers, most likely would like to get rid of you or sthing.

I had a warlock that I absolutely loved playing. I loved the character and story and was ready to play it out, but then I ran into the above problem. I had planned to try and earn people's trust so I could (hopefully) manipulate them later on, but all I had to do to earn trust was say "hello". IC inclusiveness has ruined a lot of potential characters, for me and for many others.

-Too many people break their concept just to do some fluffy rp, no one cares about warlocks, warlocks are super friendly, all love good necromancers and vice versa, Tieflings the same, why people think they are fluffy...and why do fluffy thieflings do not act at all like Tieflings?
same goes to orcs...

While I'm not a fan of "fluffy" RP I do have to ask, just how is a tiefling supposed to act? It's like saying humans are supposed to act a certain way while ignoring the variety in culture throughout the race. Tieflings are pretty darn varied, and are not directly drawn toward evil deeds. They can act in most ways without it being a departure from the history of the race.

That said, just with the warlock, it would be nice to be able to RP out the typical reactions to the race without a DM nearby to control the NPCs. Yes PCs are extraordinary and don't have to react the same way the general public does, but seeing as how RP with PCs is far more common than RP with the general public it would be nice to be able to deal with racism and distrust from time to time.

Perhaps more consequences isn't right for the player base of the server, but a bit more lore correct realism would improve things by quite a bit, in my opinion of course. Even just a few extra lines of dialogue added to civilized areas could do the trick to make races (and possibly classes) that are allowed but not completely trusted more meaningful.