Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Sun Wukong wrote:Steve, how about you show me some basic understanding of the actual game mechanics before you go on insisting on game changes that adversely affect other players?

Ha ha ha! For a monkey in a suit, you're pretty funny.

If the rest timer is such an issue that it makes grinding mobs imbalanced one way or the other, then i think the best solution is to buff RP experience.

As someone who isn't playing an optimized pve build, it's pretty hard to solo anything on the server at around my level. I'm constantly grouped for stuff and not feeling all that useful there either because -everyone- can buff themselves to oblivion.
The problem from my point of view is a snowball effect. Firstly people expect that because its a video game they should be able to solo everything: D&D and NWN was designed for a party of 3-6 people. Because players feel the need to be able to solo all content they gish. Because many players gish, monsters need to be buffed that they're harder to solo, but not so buffed that they can't be taken on in a weaker than average group because a group of 4 gishs is worse than a traditional party. Since Gishs are able to solo, they don't have to group as much so there are less people actively searching for groups.

Or I'm totally wrong , but that's just my feeling about it. Most of my experience is DMing for 3.5 and now 5e (pen and paper) and I noticed that when I DM'd for a party using 'optimized' builds they almost always struggled more than a less optimized but more balanced party comp.

Alioops wrote:If the rest timer is such an issue that it makes grinding mobs imbalanced one way or the other, then i think the best solution is to buff RP experience.

and punish all of the UD?

IMJKBTW

Sun Wukong wrote: Steve, how about you show me some basic understanding of the actual game mechanics before you go on insisting on game changes that adversely affect other players?

I propose to set the rest timer for 8 IRL hours... for Steve only.

NegInfinity wrote:

Sun Wukong wrote: Steve, how about you show me some basic understanding of the actual game mechanics before you go on insisting on game changes that adversely affect other players?

I propose to set the rest timer for 8 IRL hours... for Steve only.

NegInfinity wrote:

Sun Wukong wrote: Steve, how about you show me some basic understanding of the actual game mechanics before you go on insisting on game changes that adversely affect other players?

I propose to set the rest timer for 8 IRL hours... for Steve only.

Yes, I fully support this notion of people living what they preach for!

Sun Wukong wrote: Yes, I fully support this notion of people living what they preach for!

have you seen all the orc prcs and add-ons for orcs i have posted over the last year or so.

SW supports it.

that makes 2 now.

Do you have an Orc Drummer Boy character?

Sun Wukong wrote:Do you have an Orc Drummer Boy character?

of course i do.. i have twenty orc characters.

Aaron, why is an INTELLIGENCE based gish "commoner"?


At the moment, the only viable gish is a muscle wizard.



Why? Because dispels will murder you if you don't have 30/29 Cl.

Wizard15/EK10/Swashbuckler 5 gives you 28 Cl. It's still somewhat acceptable, but your damage is miniscule compared to a muscle-wizard due to no access to IPA and piercing damage having the most frequent DR against.

Now, you want to play an intelligence-based Bladesinger.

Wizard 5/bladesinger 10/EK10/swashbuckler 5.

Your Cl is absolutely non-existent. You can no longer ward with hopes of keeping your wards. You need something to dodge dispels.

Wizard 12/shadowdancer 3/bladesinger 10/Swashbucker 5.

Finally - you have it all: damage, AC, avoiding dispels and damage. Your BAB is miniscule compared to the muscle wizard. you are now a MAD character like a paladin. Your Cl is practically non-existent.


Intelligence based bladesingers are one of the intended designs, seeing how they can do rapiers and longswords both. And how Song of Celerity encourages offensive spellcasting - which relies on intelligence again.


My character, a wizard17/duelist 5/shadowdancer 3/swashbuckler 5 is practically an after-market intelligence based bladesinger. No levels in BS because of RP. Has 2 points less BAB than the bladesinger would have, 1 less Cl, 1 less AB, same damage (or more, if going duelist 6), more naked AC, no need to wear armor, more free feats, way more dexterity.


Intelligence based wizards are forced to take swashbuckler 5 for equal damage to muscle wizards, reducing their Cl 5 (or 1, with practiced).

Consider this.

The more intelligent caster has less Cl by STANDARD than a muscle wizard. It's more less even when you optimize a muscle wizard for maximum damage and melee potential (29).


This means the more intelligent arcane warrior who is optimized for damage and melee potential (the Bladesinger build) has just a whooping 8 less Cl than "more muscle than brains".

This means their spells last way less and they've no incentive to take Extend spell - seeing it will just get dispelled over and over again.

So they don't have extend spell. Meaning, their spells last less than their rest timer does by default.

They're also Bladesingers, who have Song of Celerity. Meaning by lore and design, they're supposed to use spells offensively. So even less room for warding, at cost of offensive spellcasting.


As an added bonus, intelligence based gishes are an absolute torture to play before level 23.

As a second added bonus, int based bladesingers can barely loot. By needing armor, unlike the duelist variant, they always carry an added weight of a mithral chain shirt. By being MAD, they can't afford to waste points on strength - since strength is literally useless beyond carry capacity. Even charisma is more useful than strength due to UMD - but you could instead invest those into int/dex to be better able to match the muscle wizard who has no such sacrifices to make.

A few points :

1. There are many areas without any dispel.

2. INT based gishes have decent DCs as well as skill points compared to an STR version, there has to be a drawback.

3. You're not forced to go swashbuckler. A ~16 base STR score with a max INT, combat insight and PA with a weapon used with two hands deal enough damage.

4. You have the room to take extend spell.

5. You can build gishes who are not buff-reliant.

Valefort wrote:A few points :

1. There are many areas without any dispel.

2. INT based gishes have decent DCs as well as skill points compared to an STR version, there has to be a drawback.

3. You're not forced to go swashbuckler. A ~16 base STR score with a max INT, combat insight and PA with a weapon used with two hands deal enough damage.

4. You have the room to take extend spell.

5. You can build gishes who are not buff-reliant.

16 base strength kills the point of an int based warrior.

10 strength is average
12 strength is above average
14 strength is the peak what an average soldier can reach.
16 strength for the average person often results in weaknesses elsewhere, even for adventurers it is very high.

16 strength on a str + 0 race costs 10 whole points. TEN. 14 strength costs just 6. That's a massive leap of investment. While your char won't look like Alex Lois Armstrong, they still will ruin the idea behind of a unassuming fighter.


And what worth is skill points? Have enough for 33 UMD, 33 detect skill, 30 spellcraft, 30 tumble, and maybe 66 H/MS. Ignore concentration as it's useless - if you are getting hit then you might as well leave the area unless you have 400+ HP. Even strength builds can satisfy those.

RP skills? Nobody cares about them far as I experience. Some DMs even admit to not using proper source books DCs (like, not even that they modify it by circumnstance modifiers), but rather take the skill points your level should have with maximum investment and add onto it 5-10-15-20 depending on the "challenge" they want the skill to have.

We have a ton of skills now, and you actually need to read the sourcebook DCs if you want your skills to represent your abilities as you can't afford to max them all. So... if you can't max a skill - why even spend anything on it? You'll just end up failing the exact same action in the exact same circumnstance that you passed at level 15 with 15 ranks in the skill with a roll of 5, but failed at level 30 with 15 ranks while rolling 15. The exact same action. Because the DM wants it to be a "challenge", uncaring for the fact that you have to balance a bazillion skills and sacrifice from the mechanical skills to properly represent your character.



Intelligence wizards sacrifice actual use for something that doesn't exist.

As for DCs, unless you commit all your feats into spell focuses and maximise your Cl, you might as well not cast DC spells because things will succeed on them a disproportionate amount of times compared to their numbers and the spellslots you have available.

"You can make a non-buffing reliant int gish" - If you are fine with not having 9th circle spellcasting, sure. But by then, why have spells at all? UMD does the same job.

"Room to take extend spell" - sure, but why? You'll just get dispelled over and over again unless you have cl 29/30.

"There are many areas without dispels" - there are also areas where a common footsoldier somehow has magical capabilities to dispel an equal CR adventurer.



"Sure! You can take the bike across town. But you must put the bike in a car and not ride it" - what your suggestion boils down to with "16 strength" int wizard.

gish(Noun) A magician, or character that is skilled in both physical combat and the use of magic. Most gish characters use their magical abilities to increase their own personal combat abilities (known as "buffing").

The question I have for you Hoihe is whether or not you're really making a gish.

If the underlying build design is NOT to gain the greatest combat abilities possible, then I suggest you look at the build a different way entirely.

CL 29 should see your build getting dispelled 5% of the time. That's not so terrible. But since we know one can get CL 29 plus BAB 26+ with Augment Form and buffs (Tenser's), if your not taking advantage of this, you are making something other than a gish, or just a weak gish that has other (hopefully) skills or Skills the combat proficient gish does not!

Hoihe wrote:RP skills? Nobody cares about them far as I experience. Some DMs even admit to not using proper source books DCs (like, not even that they modify it by circumnstance modifiers), but rather take the skill points your level should have with maximum investment and add onto it 5-10-15-20 depending on the "challenge" they want the skill to have.

Yeah, it should be compulsory for DMs to read and memorise the contents from this page: http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/skills.htm

Steve wrote:CL 29 should see your build getting dispelled 5% of the time. That's not so terrible. But since we know one can get CL 29 plus BAB 26+ with Augment Form and buffs (Tenser's), if your not taking advantage of this, you are making something other than a gish, or just a weak gish that has other (hopefully) skills or Skills the combat proficient gish does not!

The wiki states that it only works with 'Polymorph and Shapechange' - hence no low to medium BAB from casting that Tenser's Transmutation.

Steve wrote:Ha ha ha! For a monkey in a suit, you're pretty funny.

And the previous point still stands.

Sun Wukong wrote:The wiki states that it only works with 'Polymorph and Shapechange' - hence no low to medium BAB from casting that Tenser's Transmutation.

Well that is either incorrect or unfortunate, since from Nachti's thread on Polymorphing 1.1, it lists many other applications:

Nachti wrote:

Augment Form
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Spellfocus Transmutation.
Specifics: The character becomes skilled with spells and abilities that allow him to assume another form. For the duration, the character’s base attack bonus becomes medium (unless its already higher) but cannot exceed the character’s HD.
Affected Spells and Abilities: Polymorph, Tenser’s Transformation, Shapechange, Spider Shape, Spider Form and Shifter’s Forms.