Open question to team evil/morally questionable

[Steve]

I don't understand why the focus is on Zentharim instead of evil PCs.
Plus I don't think everyone is interested in politics, as already mentioned, some want to have power, wealth, fame that doesn't have to come from a guild/faction

It's no just about Zhentarim. You can take for example trying to be a member of the Church of Umberlee, for example, and easily get the shaft.

Thing is, power (mechanical) and wealth (looting) is easy and without restriction. One will not make any lasting "dent" into the Environment of the Server, pursuing this. It is a totally valid way to experience the Server, however. And, one can even experience a certain amount of fame, being a bandit, or an Orc in the woods causing havoc.

So obviously there are levels of experience in RP on BGTSCC. And some levels are far easier to reach, than others.

[Blaze]

What I mean has a different perspective from the mechanical one.

Power is not only having a strong build, but having the ability to influence NPCs and maybe even players, this does not mean taking the lead but rather having a role, being able to change the current setting.


Unfortunately many things require DM intervention and this cannot be denied, but it could be an input that would give life to something long lived, something that would then be given to the players.

I take Soubar as an example, why not make certain PCs guards, captains, sergeants? People do not have to enforce the laws because there are not many, but they could have the task of protecting the trade, making sure that there are no thefts.

[Endelyon]

Honestly, I have a bit of an odd question.

Why are Bane, Bhaal, Loviatar, Malar, Myrkul, Shar and Talos banned in Baldur's gate? They aren't or weren't banned in Faerun canon, and it doesn't really make all that much sense. Considering....

Myrkul's Clergy performs important social services.
Talos is Umberlee's superior in the Deities of Fury.
Malar is the god of Hunting. Which I presume people still do when they want venison.
Bane is explicitly called out in canon as permitted/tolerated.
Bhaal... I honestly dunno because I can't find much about his church beyond 'Murders someone once a tenday.'


Like for Shar it kind of makes sense, because Shar's whole schtick is being secretive and culty and it would be a disservice to people wanting to play the secretive type, and Amn specifically permits Shar's worship in canon. And maybe bhaal as well just because Bhaal is literally a god of murderhobo-ism. But why the rest?

Because Myrkulite PCs have taken actions against the Dukes and the city and gotten the religion banned since the server started. These inconsistencies with canon lore aren't some effort conjured up by staff to make it more difficult to play evil characters, they are a result of actions evil characters have taken since the server began.

It might be possible for a prominent enough Myrkulite to get the right to practice the religion reinstated, but no such PC has ever existed or at least come forward to try.

[Tekill]

Honestly, I have a bit of an odd question.

Why are Bane, Bhaal, Loviatar, Malar, Myrkul, Shar and Talos banned in Baldur's gate? They aren't or weren't banned in Faerun canon, and it doesn't really make all that much sense. Considering....

Myrkul's Clergy performs important social services.
Talos is Umberlee's superior in the Deities of Fury.
Malar is the god of Hunting. Which I presume people still do when they want venison.
Bane is explicitly called out in canon as permitted/tolerated.
Bhaal... I honestly dunno because I can't find much about his church beyond 'Murders someone once a tenday.'


Like for Shar it kind of makes sense, because Shar's whole schtick is being secretive and culty and it would be a disservice to people wanting to play the secretive type, and Amn specifically permits Shar's worship in canon. And maybe bhaal as well just because Bhaal is literally a god of murderhobo-ism. But why the rest?

Because Myrkulite PCs have taken actions against the Dukes and the city and gotten the religion banned since the server started. These inconsistencies with canon lore aren't some effort conjured up by staff to make it more difficult to play evil characters, they are a result of actions evil characters have taken since the server began.

It might be possible for a prominent enough Myrkulite to get the right to practice the religion reinstated, but no such PC has ever existed or at least come forward to try.

And you see nothing wrong with this picture?

[enginseer-42]

Honestly, I have a bit of an odd question.

Why are Bane, Bhaal, Loviatar, Malar, Myrkul, Shar and Talos banned in Baldur's gate? They aren't or weren't banned in Faerun canon, and it doesn't really make all that much sense. Considering....

Myrkul's Clergy performs important social services.
Talos is Umberlee's superior in the Deities of Fury.
Malar is the god of Hunting. Which I presume people still do when they want venison.
Bane is explicitly called out in canon as permitted/tolerated.
Bhaal... I honestly dunno because I can't find much about his church beyond 'Murders someone once a tenday.'


Like for Shar it kind of makes sense, because Shar's whole schtick is being secretive and culty and it would be a disservice to people wanting to play the secretive type, and Amn specifically permits Shar's worship in canon. And maybe bhaal as well just because Bhaal is literally a god of murderhobo-ism. But why the rest?

Because Myrkulite PCs have taken actions against the Dukes and the city and gotten the religion banned since the server started. These inconsistencies with canon lore aren't some effort conjured up by staff to make it more difficult to play evil characters, they are a result of actions evil characters have taken since the server began.

It might be possible for a prominent enough Myrkulite to get the right to practice the religion reinstated, but no such PC has ever existed or at least come forward to try.

That's... Incredibly non-obvious to anyone who wasn't around for the events in question.

[BloodRiot]

Honestly, I have a bit of an odd question.

Why are Bane, Bhaal, Loviatar, Malar, Myrkul, Shar and Talos banned in Baldur's gate? They aren't or weren't banned in Faerun canon, and it doesn't really make all that much sense. Considering....

Myrkul's Clergy performs important social services.
Talos is Umberlee's superior in the Deities of Fury.
Malar is the god of Hunting. Which I presume people still do when they want venison.
Bane is explicitly called out in canon as permitted/tolerated.
Bhaal... I honestly dunno because I can't find much about his church beyond 'Murders someone once a tenday.'


Like for Shar it kind of makes sense, because Shar's whole schtick is being secretive and culty and it would be a disservice to people wanting to play the secretive type, and Amn specifically permits Shar's worship in canon. And maybe bhaal as well just because Bhaal is literally a god of murderhobo-ism. But why the rest?

Because Myrkulite PCs have taken actions against the Dukes and the city and gotten the religion banned since the server started. These inconsistencies with canon lore aren't some effort conjured up by staff to make it more difficult to play evil characters, they are a result of actions evil characters have taken since the server began.

It might be possible for a prominent enough Myrkulite to get the right to practice the religion reinstated, but no such PC has ever existed or at least come forward to try.

That is all well and good. As I stated in a previous post, the past should indeed carry weight. However what I understand a lot of people in this thread seem to be feeling is that anything resembling changing that past is shut down before it even begins because of the factors they want to change.

Things are as they are because past happened -> player tries to correct/change the present so the future is not like the past -> player is shut down from doing so because Things are as they are because past happened.

[Azroth]

That is all well and good. As I stated in a previous post, the past should indeed carry weight. However what I understand a lot of people in this thread seem to be feeling is that anything resembling changing that past is shut down before it even begins because of the factors they want to change.

Things are as they are because past happened -> player tries to correct/change the present so the future is not like the past -> player is shut down from doing so because Things are as they are because past happened.

That's exactly the issue, partly at least on many levels of different contexts. Be it with the Myrkulite as quoted and much, much more.

it's why I broke away from some of that as it's a rather unfortunate repetitive cycle that I'm not interested in.

[Anrilor]

That is all well and good. As I stated in a previous post, the past should indeed carry weight. However what I understand a lot of people in this thread seem to be feeling is that anything resembling changing that past is shut down before it even begins because of the factors they want to change.

Things are as they are because past happened -> player tries to correct/change the present so the future is not like the past -> player is shut down from doing so because Things are as they are because past happened.

That's exactly the issue, partly at least on many levels of different contexts. Be it with the Myrkulite as quoted and much, much more.

it's why I broke away from some of that as it's a rather unfortunate repetitive cycle that I'm not interested in.

I really don't belive this is the case with the current staff. When things got changed in October. I put forward my goal of changing something that happened in the past. I stated that it would be a long goal, I knew that it would take months to complete. And gave the basic points that I wanted to try and complete.

Those plans have adapted over time as the dm rumors popped up. I've adjusted parts of the plot, but the overall goal remains the same. Things have slowed down due to holidays and other events being run for other groups. I have been told by NPCs that are a part of the plot, to find more help ICly. That a lone woman will need more backing and support to see the plot through and because I did my homework on various potential allies for my goa, I knew who to reach out to, and what motivations they would need for them to help me. Other plots slowed down my own push for what u wanted because they were closer to home for my character.

My advice, for your own plots to change the world are:

1. Have a clear goal in mind, not just the end, but the steps planned to take to get there. Ie I would like to make a coalition of x groups. I would want to meet with them individually to try to convince them to my side. Then as a group to discuss plans of how we will work together to go after goal z.

2. Be adaptable. As you influence, and other plots occur, there may be times you see an advantage to use some of those resources on another plot. This helps build relationships with the NPCs and show common goals, and strengthens your character to that npc faction.

3. Be ready to include other players in the event, sometimes the DM may ask you to have more players included for world changing events so more people can be a part of the change. This can be either cooperative or antagonistic.

4. Accept the consequences of the plot. If you misspeak, don't follow through, get discovered, etc. Deal with it icly. Accept that the good guys/other bad guys might find out and try to do something about it. My own plot I believe earned me an assassination contract against me. Depending on how it's carried out, Aly is up for permadeath. (Yeah that's right, a good guy is up for a meaningful death).

Just having these four rules goes a long way to having things accepted and succeed.

[Shadowspinner70]

From experience, I don't think that's the case with current staff either. However, "team evil" is rightfully concerned because they have precedent on their side. Because they have precedent of being shut down, of players throwing fits because they managed to scrape even a minor victory. Perception is far more important than reality right now, because right now, many players do not trust staff. With some of those players, those wounds are being healed. Other players, not so much.

I still stand by my suggestion: make BG dynamic. One consequence of Bg being reactive is we have good-aligned characters shrugging off deaths of the common man. I've seen it happen, and there's no pushback with that. No "hold on, you're not upset that farmer just died?" And it's encouraged because the status quo is good. The status quo isn't neutral, which means that every little thing evil achieves, will eventually shift back into goodness if not this state of neutrality because evil is just too far away of a shift.

Let the FF be the status quo. Let Entar and Eltan, let gold, be the status quo. Let the interest of the city be the status quo, and not everything that's good for the city is good. I've also found that despite lore showing that good gets along better than evil, evil players/characters are far more willing to band together for a greater cause, though it's conditional and filled with strife.

If the Gate needs it, they might bring back the Myrkulite and Banite churches. The next year, they might be banned again because the Gate's people remembered they're evil and are having protests. Then they come back again. In a time of great need, they might be willing to look the other way with most things if you offer gold. Then it's up to "team good" to make sure severe crimes aren't being gotten away with, but... where is the line of vigilanteism? Where is the line of sedition? They need to tread that. "Team evil" will have more leeway, but when will they overstep? When won't the guards be bought off? These are all example scenarios.

And yes. Let Soubar have a Sheriff, who recruits "guards" and is watched over by Mags. If a sheriff isn't up to snuff? Hand off the job. If they're blatantly abusing the position, with evidence? Well, you clearly don't deserve it in the eyes of might is right and most drow, because you got caught. If no one can prove it, you're not doing it, clearly. Your fault you got caught. In the eyes of at least the drow, no one cares if you don't have evidence.

[Azroth]

I really don't belive this is the case with the current staff. When things got changed in October. I put forward my goal of changing something that happened in the past. I stated that it would be a long goal, I knew that it would take months to complete. And gave the basic points that I wanted to try and complete.

I have valid reason to believe that your own experiences would be different from mine, and I am going to just leave it at that.

[Rain]

I really don't belive this is the case with the current staff. When things got changed in October. I put forward my goal of changing something that happened in the past. I stated that it would be a long goal, I knew that it would take months to complete. And gave the basic points that I wanted to try and complete.

I have valid reason to believe that your own experiences would be different from mine, and I am going to just leave it at that.

I don't want to sound bias or bitter but i'd have to 2nd this. There is some valid experiences that leads me to believe that behind the curtain the conclusion the differences in how progression and goal-achievement is finalized is staggering. There is a reason threads like this occur so frequently if this was not the case. The likely-hood of it being blurred in public view is obvious. Because realistically from a authority stand-point there still needs to be some hidden transparency in how the staff operates and makes decisions.

I made a post on the BG discord already that explained a case that followed this exact subject matter where I replied to someone with this:

There was a time where team evil unified together to try and make exactly what is being promoted. Probably the one and only time every single evil faction leader logged on at the same time and all sat at a round table to discuss upgrading and unifying soubar into something lawfully controlled by them and it’s surrounding lands.

It was something so rare at this point youll probably never see it again and even with all of that influence between all of us united those few weeks nothing happened. DM team never got involved and shot down the request to do so. There was -one- chance for it to happen and even the rariest of gathering couldn’t pull through.
Still have the screenshots to. Was a beautiful sight seeing all those faction leaders in one room towards a directive.

[blazerules]

One consequence of Bg being reactive is we have good-aligned characters shrugging off deaths of the common man.

The amount of times I've seen characters just shrug off the winter food shortage or see it as not a big deal that people are dying is unideal. I get that NPCs dont matter to players but still...

Since you know. Even neutral characters would be horrified by it. Mass starvation with people dying of hunger in the streets. Dying of hunger is horrible way to go. And you have to remember the consequences of it such as families being left entirely broken as parents will naturally give food to children and die before them. Leaving many an orphan. What about newborn children? Some would end up abandoned in times like this as its not unheard of.

Not to mention food prices being up would mean the price of everything is up. You wouldn't offer services or goods for the same prices when it means you literally cant buy food anymore unless you raise prices. Homelessness would also be at a rise, unemployment too due to cost of employees and shrinking job market in terms of food sales. Imagine the corpses piling up in the streets too once this all reaches critical mass. Its a huge horrific snowball of pure despair and suffering.

Then people just shrug it off like its not that big a deal. Not too important a thing going on. Or are confused when my character is horrified by the events.

Maybe I'm over reacting (probably am) but I've seen it so often I see it less of a alignment issue and more of just an RP issue to some degree. Perhaps things just aren't communicated well enough. Plus you're never really shown any importance that common NPCs hold, nor do they take imitative as they're generally seen as background fodder. Or at best used to make PCs look nice.

[Kiran]

Hey all!

Took my time to read through all of these as people made some great points across the board. Both team evil and good.

I was team evil for a good... 3-4 years on the server, played a lot of (To my opinion) known villains or at least troublemakers who either met their end by PC's, DM's or being completely outlawed.

I had a lot of fun, had a lot of roleplay, but I also knew their time was limited at the onset of making them. These characters I made, were going to die...

For a person like me, who love making new characters. That's great, I get to build up relationships, build a story, get a climatic ending, move on to the next. I had the time back then to create them, play them and go wild.

But as I have less time to play, I switched over to team good, brought back an old paladin I made back gods know when... and without even trying, I get 1000% more roleplay, dm events, interaction and fun on this old character that just honestly sits AFK in a temple while I paint IRL at my desk...

I sometimes played my evil toons all day and night, and I got a lot of interaction, but damn did I have to work for it.. On my old paladin? It is thrown at me, like sweet sweet roleplay nectar.

I understand fully where team evil is coming from with what they are saying. It is hard to just get casual roleplay like team good... I lived it..

Furthermore, there is more pressure for consequences to occur to someone from team evil than good. That is simply a fact. I am sure there are cases where it is not so, but overall, it is to my experience.

I don't think it has to do with the DM's, or the team overall. There are just more active casual good players who over many years have built trusting relationships and history between their characters. Not many would want to lose or risk such characters with years of history and roleplay. Thus when they engage with someone from team evil, there might be an unspoken bias that one should win, and one shouldn't.

Anyway, what was I saying? Oh yeah... if you are on team good, try and come up with a reason why your character should go and roleplay with someone YOU know might be evil, and let them trick/betray or perhaps, just perhaps, create memorable roleplay that will both enhance you and your character as well as them.

Try and be kinder ya'll!

(Death to all elves)

[enginseer-42]

So. To finally post a genuine in depth opinion. There are three main issues I see with playing an evil character on this server. That isn't to say it's an unenjoyable slog either, I've enjoyed playing my Myrkulite Necromancer more than any of the other good/neutral characters I've had put together.


Firstly, there's the issue of imbalance of risk. Suppose, as many have suggested in this thread, I decide to send my guy to Baldur's gate to petition the dukes to reinstate the right to publically worship Myrkul in the city. There is every chance that I can be executed, gaining a permastrike on my character for either A.) Being a Myrkulite, or B.) Being a Necromancer.

Likewise, I don't even have to go to the city to run this risk. If I run afoul of some do gooder somewhere in the north, and they drag my carcass back to Baldur's gate, it's my understanding you can still be judged for actions outside of Duchal lands, and thereby gain a Perma-Strike despite never even setting foot in Baldur's gate.

Meanwhile, there is no such similar active enforcement for heroic characters. Which when combined with the complaints earlier in this thread really comes across as "Consequences for thee, but not for me." but I'll get into that again in more detail later.




Secondly, there's the issue of lore. In many cases trying to interact with 'Goodly' factions is rife with proviso's contingencies, and necessary DM involvement. You want to attack someone in Baldur's gate and it's a whole ordeal if you can do it at all. Why? Because lore wise there would be things that cannot be accounted for in day to day server NPC's and it truly is best to be able to turn such a thing into a proper scene overseen by a DM.

The issue is this is not at all reciprocated onto villainous groups. The most egregious one I'm aware of is that the idea that the Church of Myrkul would take a ban on his worship sitting down.... is counter to every bit of lore about either Myrkul or his church. Both of whom invest an incredible amount of time and energy into cultivating an image of implacable inevitability. While this is pre-ToT and the gods are less interventionary, Myrkul was always quite active. Taking the time to personally attend funerals, haunt peoples dreams, and otherwise remind people that death awaits all. So much so that he is the only god that the vast majority of people of the time have personally seen at least once.

Likewise, his church makes a regular practice of murdering anyone who so much as touches a priest of myrkul without their permission, while practically mounting crusades against those who mock or disrespect the lord of bones.

A ban of his worship would be met with constant reprisals until either Baldur's gate or the church broke, and as wealthy and powerful as Eltan and the flaming fist are, I do not think they're on the realm of fighting an entire church with the backing of a greater deity indefinitely. It would be a costly, destructive conflict. And that's just one of the gods they banned the worship of.

This being the case, how are we to approach the subject of the ban without godmodding the NPC's in question? Why has the head of Myrkul's Clergy down in Tulmon not heard of this and come to speak to the dukes in all these years? It's far away, but not so far as that. Just down by the border of Tethyr. If we follow canon lore, and attempt to attack the gate, as would be the proper 'Myrkulite' thing to do, it merely reinforces the ban. If we play nice, we ignore the fact that both we should be attacking, and that the church hierarchy should have long since addressed this, and that the constant attacks of the faithful should be a drain on the time and resources of the gate which seems to have endless money and epic level fist NPCs with impossibly roided stats to throw at any problem.

When evil is treated like a minor annoyance that just needs an assortment of paladins to slay without effort, while 'good' forces are treated as impossible to overcome demigods of the status quo... it gets old. Likewise, when evil is treated as something outside proper society, rather than something that should be ordinary, things become bizarre. As an example, the Day the Dead are most with us, AKA the Feast of the Moon, is a holiday not just celebrated by Myrkulites, despite it's special significance to them, but by everyone in Faerun. It's the Faerunian equivalent to Dia de los Muertos or Halloween and happens on the last night of Uktar and carries into the first morning of Nightal. This bizarre separation of the world into good places and evil places and good culture and evil culture each in a state of perpetual total war with the other is not just toxic to the game, but just plain weird from a lore perspective where you'd get good and evil people united by country or city even if they didn't much like each other personally. The fact that we have this sharp divide between good vs evil, rather than say, Amnian vs Baldurian PC's is.... at least personally, bizarre.



And lastly, in connection to the first issue. The difference in risk is also coupled with a difference in Attitude. Earlier in this thread, Hoihe and Ashenie made a point about player vs player, and how it seemed to them that evil PC's were eager for permakills.

The very first thing the radiant heart did after the dust settled in the Undercity battle was try to RP cutting off the heads of every fallen Myrkulite, to prevent resurrection, to the point where the DM had to tell them to cut it out because they were interrupting him. Some years ago, when by happenstance a red wizard was downed by event creatures in the cloakwood, the Radiant Hearts response was 'Aha! Now we have the foul evil doer, let's take his corpse to Baldur's gate to be turned in to the fist to get destroyed.'

The threat of being permakilled by do-gooders is a constant weight on peoples minds on the villainous side of the fence.

While not every interaction I have seen between villain and hero has been bloodthirsty on the heroes part, I have seen far more OOC courtesy and respect for the concept of friendly PVP from villains towards my characters, villain, hero, or otherwise, than I have ever seen from goodly heroic characters. And a lot more hunger for permakills from heroes than I have from villains.

[Tekill]

Please don't 'let me' trick you.
*EDIT* ...unless a skill check is involved?

But ignore me! -Read the previous post before this one, a second time!