Discussion on "playing your character sheet"

[stevebarracuda]

Colleagues,
What are you opinions on this subject?

Should Ability Stats be followed more true to form, or are they just numbers in a bigger picture?
What is the consensus on min/maxing a build— if you have a 6 CHA, but put 33 skill points into diplomacy (max 31 natural), are you a high quality negotiator?

We can be elves, dwarves, genasi...the hated Gray Orc...but can we RP a half-elf/half-orc? That option doesn't exist in this game, but would it be allowed here on this server to RP as a spawn of a elf and orc? Can we RP a half-monstrous race?

Should DMs be paying more attention to our actions as they reflect our alignments? Yes, some, like Paladins, are more strict in the alignment-affects-your-class than others...but, saying you are Chaotic Good allows you to wantonly kill creatures that attack you at anytime...is that still a definition of being good? Alternatively, are all Red Wizards evil aligned by their very nature? Is it appropriate to let lore be bent around our OOC "having a good time" playing this game?

If you're curious to why I ask these questions, it's because I'm trying to balance out how best to interact and RP with toons that I think do not take these questions into account when they're built. And, if these questions are idle questions with no real bearing on how or why we play on BG, then I can easily—or hopefully—through a discussion here, stop thinking about them.

Cheers.

[WeWhoEat]

I have met uncharismatic negotiators before, people who are ugly and crude and have no leadership potential whatsoever yet are still skilled at presenting arguments in a concise manner that makes sense to all the parties involved. There is more to Diplomacy than just unwarranted persuasiveness - it involves debate and argument skills and a knowledge even of conversational logic depending on how intense you want to get. Certainly being a charming dapper fellow helps, but not to the point that it overshadows everything else.


I certainly do agree that more people need to play closer to their sheets, however. I imagine half of the people running around with their descriptions being something out of a Harlequin romance novel are just 8 CHA under the hood. And yes, I know, charisma is not just about looks, but it DOES include looks. If you have 8 charisma, you are not gonna be hot.

Ideally, a DM would weigh how a player acts against his actual stats and better reward people who keep them close, but that is a LOT of work and a lot of judgment calls to be made for even mundane occurrences.

Alignment is a tricky thing as well to judge, simply because there can be different motivations for actions, and there is the hole "subjective vs objective" thing that it is too late for me to get into now.


As for odd racial mixes, the best you can get are the primary races with selectable subraces, modified by the Heritage feats. So that likely means no to half-elf orcs. I think the policy is "Play your sheet", which is very defiantly enforced when it comes to races, classes, and abilities.

[WeWhoEat]

Granted, higher scores in the mental states are harder to RP for players that have low scores in those categories. A foolish player trying to RP a wise character comes off sounding comical, and a dunce trying to play a smart character just makes her sound like crazy person. Nobody ever likes half-arsing it either, likes the emote "*Says something profound*" or "*Explains the concept in an intelligent way*" or even "*Says something inspiring*". It is similar in a way to the issue with intimidate: Just rolling it is a fool's action; a proper use of an intimidate roll is when such a roll is paired with something that is actually intimidating.

We may be here to have fun, but a game without rules and guidelines tends to only be fun to those who hate rules and guidelines.

I ~like~ rules. They make me happy, and impose order, which also makes me happy. There is a reason I am Lawful Neutral, after all.

[stevebarracuda]

I don't know if my questions are about making strict rules, but I do want to know the guidelines by which other players built and RP their toons.

Also, guidelines that the Staff and DMs see appropriate to uphold in situations of disagreement.

I read over the server rules again before and after writing the OP, and if these are the only guidelines by which we are to follow for this PW, it would seem that one really doesn't have to "play their character sheet" at all.

The only situation in which one would be required to do so is if a DM requests it. But, as has been pointed out time and time again, the DMs cannot be the police of this server—we as players need to uphold some sort of agreed upon, rational set of guidelines for how we RP with out toons.

[mdchrist]

I follow my character sheet with everyone of my characters. Ability points, skills points, alignment, and i do throw their personality into the mix. I prefer following it since it causes interesting events and even discussions while keep things out of the norm while having fun to me =). I'd get to bored of i had everyone as smart as for example maybe Rhys or Charraj as a mage of their level or if they were as Charismatic as maybe Juliana / Mia, and had the common sense to know whats the best course of action in every situation. I mean do i have to? Not really, but i find more value in it when i do. I honestly say people should try it at least, i think its alot of fun doing so =).

[Xanfyrst]

If you have 8 charisma, you are not gonna be hot.

Bullsh!t.

You can have 8 charisma (which is still in the 'normal' range, mind you) and be stunningly good-looking, yet have a personality that makes other people want to avoid/ignore you (or worse)

Comic book Examples of low charisma people that are good-looking: Emma Frost (x-men), Harley Quinn (Batman) and Mystique (x-men)

The opposite is also true, where the charismatic person isn't particularly good-looking: Joker (Batman), Beast (X-men), Harvey "Two-Face" Dent (Batman) and Caliban (X-men).

The stat descriptions are merely guidelines on how to RP it. If your dex is 8 doesn't necessarily mean you trip over everything, but could mean you're limb from an old war-wound.

[stevebarracuda]

You can have 8 charisma (which is still in the 'normal' range, mind you) and be stunningly good-looking, yet have a personality that makes other people want to avoid/ignore you (or worse)

OK, if this is so, what stops someone from RP'ing a good looking and magnetic personality and leadership potential yet having only an 8 CHA?

It is grand that you put faith in the player RP'ing the toon correctly, cause in your comics examples of characters, they are managed much more strictly by the producers (read: DMs of the comic world) than we players are managed.

EDIT: It seems that the fail safe against judging solely on one's Ability scores is the introduction and use of skills. In this way, one can have a negative stat, yet still achieve great use of an ability through an investment of skills. The lingering problem is: rolls are not enforced unless requested by a DM. Therefore, between players, we can roll tumble all we want, but if I say *Drunkypants doesn't trip*, then he doesn't trip.

[Xanfyrst]

You can have 8 charisma (which is still in the 'normal' range, mind you) and be stunningly good-looking, yet have a personality that makes other people want to avoid/ignore you (or worse)

OK, if this is so, what stops someone from RP'ing a good looking and magnetic personality and leadership potential yet having only an 8 CHA?

I don't think you quite understood what I wrote, Steve. Weaknesses and strengths still has to be RP'd, but you have the choice on which you want. A charisma of 8 means there is something to your person that people may not like. Maybe you're ugly or maybe you're a rude person. Or perhaps you're just crude and blunt. Or you could simply be annoying like Cicero in Skyrim. You don't have to take all the flaws or strength in the stat descriptions, but it still has to make sense, and preferably be in some sort of balance.

[mdchrist]

You can have 8 charisma (which is still in the 'normal' range, mind you) and be stunningly good-looking, yet have a personality that makes other people want to avoid/ignore you (or worse)

You can be somewhat decent looking still, but you won't have that physical attractiveness that draws people in. but it is below average 10-11 is an average charisma ^.~.

OK, if this is so, what stops someone from RP'ing a good looking and magnetic personality and leadership potential yet having only an 8 CHA?

It is grand that you put faith in the player RP'ing the toon correctly, cause in your comics examples of characters, they are managed much more strictly by the producers (read: DMs of the comic world) than we players are managed.

EDIT: It seems that the fail safe against judging solely on one's Ability scores is the introduction and use of skills. In this way, one can have a negative stat, yet still achieve great use of an ability through an investment of skills. The lingering problem is: rolls are not enforced unless requested by a DM. Therefore, between players, we can roll tumble all we want, but if I say *Drunkypants doesn't trip*, then he doesn't trip.

Fortunately nothing really stops someone really from enforcing that.. someone can have a -1, 2 ability score yet have 50 diplomacy? Its like an idiot trying to persaude a council of mages that his opinion is correct, dont mind the fact sometimes idiots "Do" say the right things sometimes. But for the problem with enforcing rolls is that someone can have like 70 Diplomacy / Bluff / Intimidate and would rule over everyonese decisions repeatingly never giving others a chance.. In most cases i just take consideration of their roll to how strong my persons opinion or stubborness would play in effect.

Ex: Azin doesn't want to behead some bandits due to it being against his alignment, Wizard argues that it would be a great way to intimidate the horde of bandits coming to intimidate them from maybe attacking them or at least shake some off. (he rolls a diplomacy roll of 54) Counter rolling i'd never get anything above a 20, but its totally against his nature so should i follow his diplomacy roll? So yes since i'd never beat it i'd have to follow it if its enforced so instead i refuse to cut the heads off but i'll live with their ploy and help maybe carry some of the heads back to the intimdating point.

Sadily i mean theres nothing i can do about the whole community, people can just ignore you or follow what you roll or play with it... but enforcing rolls would be just as bad as not enforcing in my opinion. All we can do is help each other grow right and hope we just play to the best of our abilities

[Xanfyrst]

You can have 8 charisma (which is still in the 'normal' range, mind you) and be stunningly good-looking, yet have a personality that makes other people want to avoid/ignore you (or worse)

You can be somewhat decent looking still, but you won't have that physical attractiveness that draws people in. but it is below average 10-11 is an average charisma ^.~.

Anything in the 8-12 range is 'normal'.

And you can have a physical attractiveness that may draw people in, if the other negative effects are strengthened.

But if what you say is true, then a character with 20 charisma can't be butt ugly.... which we all know isn't true.

[c2k]

Anything in the 8-12 range is 'normal'.

Not in 3rd edition. Its 10-11(ie. a 9 in Int means you are illiterate). In AD&D 2nd edition, it used to be 9-12 = normal, but WotC move away from that.

[mdchrist]

No no not saying like physical physical, i meant the physical attarctiveness by in which your somewhat allured to the person, in which someone people would rally or gather to, sorry if that was not clear. You can have someone but ugly very Charismatic what i was implying is that they don't have the natural charm.

The only reason why i argue that 8 and 9 being below average Charisma is just since the lowest you can have Charisma wise (minus race specific reduction) is 8, in regular DnD yea 9-12 is in the norm, but nwn doesn't allow us to have a lower base score of 8, just my opinion as i was stating ^.^ (i usually played by 2nd and 3rd edition)

[Xanfyrst]

Anything in the 8-12 range is 'normal'.

Not in 3rd edition. Its 10-11(ie. a 9 in Int means you are illiterate). In AD&D 2nd edition, it used to be 9-12 = normal, but WotC move away from that.

I believe the DMs go by the 2.5 edition ruleset and lore, or am I mistaken?

[mdchrist]

Not 100% Sure anymore, i know we bounce around 2nd and 3rd edition alot, but 2.5 sounds about right.

[c2k]

I believe the DMs go by the 2.5 edition ruleset and lore, or am I mistaken?

I can see them bouncing between lore, but when going by a ruleset, you have to choose one.