The State of the 7th Circle and Underdark Roleplay

[Kenshin]

I originally intended to post only in the 7th Circle forums but as I kept rambling on and digressed into other issues, I felt it best to place my post here. Though something of a mishmash, I hope that it does contain some tidbits of sense amidst the hemorrhage of words.

I believe the Circle needs an officers meeting as soon as possible. I do feel that the RP has been quite good of late within the Circle as well as within the Underdark setting. Regardless there does appear to be a lack of operational awareness at the top and no organization of any worth could function effectively without at least semi-regular meetings of its leadership.

I also propose holding a meeting of the entire guild, including provisional members and possibly also allied or affiliated persons. With an influx of new and in some cases inexperienced players into the Underdark, providing background information and spelling out what Circle membership means - in terms of assistance and benefits, as well as what agents owe to the organization in terms of loyalty and service - would provide valuable context to all.

Certain things definitely need to be clarified to everyone it seems. Creating RP is all well and good but we (the Circle) are supposed to be an organization that generates trade, joint ventures, exploration and most of all profitable dealings. As such, it does not make sense even from a perspective of roleplaying highly individualistic and self-interested Drow to permit trouble makers to continually stir up conflict and headaches for the guild. As of the latest incident even the authorities we are supposed to be fighting alongside in a time of war have seen fit to punish guild members for pointless and inane fighting in the Cavern of Caravans. I know its just a game and I do believe in giving wide latitude to players to create their own RP and build their own narratives. That said, if the Circle is to have any value and credibility beyond being a collection of players joined together for DM events, we will need to institute some conduct rules (at the very least within the city and its environs). We don't need to act like one big happy family. Ambition, greed, power politics, personal grudges and the plots born of these aspects of Drow culture should permeate roleplay in the Underdark. Players not only have the right but in fact should be encouraged to have their characters plot and scheme for advantage and personal gain and to settle scores as opportunities present themselves. By the same token however, players should also have to live with the consequences of their actions. It's only reasonable that disruptive and stupid behavior in an unforgiving environment would result in ever more serious sanctions.

It is just my personal take on it, but I have tended to interpret Drow society as having more than a passing resemblance to that of the Byzantines in the Middle Ages. I view Sshamath and its surroundings as a land of intrigue with more than a touch of foreboding and menace in the air. Sophisticated with a hint of official corruption, a complex web of "arrangements" and "accommodations" provide enough stability to make Sshamath a thriving trade hub. There is violence of course, beneath the veneer of law and order, but it is kept to the slums or to monster infested tunnels. Naturally, that is only my interpretation of the setting and I certainly do not wish to force others to adopt it. Regardless, turning the Cavern of Caravans into a mosh pit seems completely out of line.

Yes, this is only a game and players come here to have fun, but there are rules and it is my belief that we as players should not only strive to operate within server rules (especially as regards PvP) but also observe basic decency towards other players. By all means, players should be free to roleplay to their heart's content, but they should do so with the understanding that they are in a shared space with other players who have the same rights to create for themselves.

As a footnote, maybe I have misinterpreted some of the things that have happened or possibly taken things out of context. If so, I dearly wish to be enlightened as to where play in the Underdark is heading, because, at the moment, it seems like things are going off the rails just a bit.

[TheVoid]

Just to elaboratd one big point. It is always assumed that fights will be quelled before they start with spell throwing or physical contact in npc guarded areas. This includes varallas and the tradeway arras such as fai and territories such as bg the city and to some extent the farmlands.

This doesnt mean an npc will always be there to stop you but a screen shot ofthe incident sent to dms will follow up with consequences since you are ignoring the npcs present and any consequences that would have followed.

[Gruk]

* removed by user *

[Rasael]

Ilphryssin has been dead.... he will not be pleased to hear there has been chaos in his absence!

[Rainbow Prism]

So much for my optimism...

If guild dies out without presence of character that led it, then that guild probably did not meet goals set by leader and should be disbanded. Of course, if there is no ambitious officer to take charge of some branch...

[Rasael]

Then you should be pleased to hear that Ilphryssin was dead for 2 weeks and the guild carried on under the stewardship of it's officers, completing several storyline events and having fun roleplaying. (which is ofcourse the purpose of all guilds)

Aside from that I think it is somewhat cynical? to claim that all guilds that will not survive their founding character need to be disbanded. Not the continuity of the guild is most important, but fun and roleplay are. I would not wish to be part of a permanent boring guild where nothing ever happens. I would wish to be part of subsequent short lived guilds that bring a lot of fun and rolelpay to the table. (to make an example that takes this perspective to the extremes)

[Aelcar]

@ Rainbow Prism: that's what you call optimism? Man, cheer up! Come on...cant be that bad, whatever it is

@ Kenshin: These points you were mentioning: 1) Guidelines and Rules are needed. 2) Leaders need coordination, create RP isnt sufficient 3) Every player has the right to RP his character without being railroaded.

They are good points. However, they need to be expanded:

1) We HAVE guidelines, we have rules. Somehow, people believe they can do whatever they want because, you know, they have the right to do so. Well, they dont. If you try to move the Queen at move one in chess, it's just illegal. Every sport, every game, every society has rules. The "incident" happened when a guy went to an esteemed and valuable ally of the Circle and crapped on him. He got shattered. He should have been permakilled. This stuff has to end. I am tired of people bad mouthing (or downright ATTACKING) the Conclave, The Circle officers and agents and other high charges in the society. It simply isnt done. Anywhere. No excuses, no justification unless the character is INSANE.

2) My character didnt participate to anything you have done because after what happened at Markhold, he doesnt trust anyone to take care of his business. What he said about Kar'Myr, and the fact he hasnt been considered, as well as what turned out to be the real situation now undeniable, didnt contribute to cement his trust in large groups of people knowing his plans. Therefore, he became reclusive. He has regular contacts with Ilphryssin only, as well as with those alliances he has been charged to form. If you want something more, convince me, cause at the moment Valshar considers himself surrounded by saboteurs.

3) Characters disrespecting the setting are railroading US into killing them. Valshar cannot have a recruit asking him to get out of his/her way in front of 5/6 other members, attacking him, disregarding his orders (as he is an officer...wouldnt matter otherwise), taunting, offending and repeatedly bad-mouthing him. That's a death sentence. This is the UD, not the Kelly Family. Same goes for Molag: high ranked officer of a key ally, and the passer-by insults and attacks him...really? Hahahah...die. And that's that.


These are some of the reasons why in the last weeks Valshar has gone from the scene. I am helping people in the UD, giving them RP, explaining the setting IC and OOC, aiding them with money (through RP) and spells when needed (after RP), but I have removed myself from the main events and plots. This is precisely why.

Cheers, good talk.

[Rainbow Prism]

Then you should be pleased to hear that Ilphryssin was dead for 2 weeks and the guild carried on under the stewardship of it's officers, completing several storyline events and having fun roleplaying. (which is ofcourse the purpose of all guilds)

Aside from that I think it is somewhat cynical? to claim that all guilds that will not survive their founding character need to be disbanded. Not the continuity of the guild is most important, but fun and roleplay are. I would not wish to be part of a permanent boring guild where nothing ever happens. I would wish to be part of subsequent short lived guilds that bring a lot of fun and rolelpay to the table. (to make an example that takes this perspective to the extremes)

There were times when one Underdark guild was trying to flow against 'Conclave rules' rule. It was supported by DM and had good base of Lolthites. However, guild was slowly shot down when feeding tube stopped giving support after decisive mass event. There are still no good claims about what happened to guild after many members lost interest. Some think it still exists IC, some think they are reduced to rubble worse than commoners, some thing all of them are dead. I still see one of the previous leaders lurking around with old PC claiming guild to be alive, but that is only mirage of past.

I really had good hopes of the Eldebryn's guild, but now when it's members muddy the name of organization they sit on in public, I say - meh...

[Aelcar]

Then you should be pleased to hear that Ilphryssin was dead for 2 weeks and the guild carried on under the stewardship of it's officers, completing several storyline events and having fun roleplaying. (which is ofcourse the purpose of all guilds)

Aside from that I think it is somewhat cynical? to claim that all guilds that will not survive their founding character need to be disbanded. Not the continuity of the guild is most important, but fun and roleplay are. I would not wish to be part of a permanent boring guild where nothing ever happens. I would wish to be part of subsequent short lived guilds that bring a lot of fun and rolelpay to the table. (to make an example that takes this perspective to the extremes)

There were times when one Underdark guild was trying to flow against 'Conclave rules' rule. It was supported by DM and had good base of Lolthites. However, guild was slowly shot down when feeding tube stopped giving support after decisive mass event. There are still no good claims about what happened to guild after many members lost interest. Some think it still exists IC, some think they are reduced to rubble worse than commoners, some thing all of them are dead. I still see one of the previous leaders lurking around with old PC claiming guild to be alive, but that is only mirage of past.

I really had good hopes of the Eldebryn's guild, but now when it's members muddy the name of organization they sit on in public, I say - meh...

We just have to get rid of those members, and their mud. Also, your hopes are all well and good, but how about my hopes? I have high hopes you stop complaining for the (do-me) of it and come back playing!! See, hopes are a matter of perspective...

[Rasael]

@Rainbow

I don't think Kenshin ment it the way you interpret the post. What he is saying that relates to the Circle appears to me as: We need to find something to focus on.

The rest of it concerns the Underdark in general -- players that play on the PW and the friction and chaos different playing styles can cause. That is something inherent to a diverse community. What he is proposing is a drive to educate the Underdark community about the 7th Circle and the Underdark in General. ('community' also including the Circle)

He feels that this will improve the roleplay and decrease the odds of miscommunications and setting unappropriate or impossible behavior.

That is what I'm reading in it and why he is posting it in the Underdark forum instead of the 7th's private forum. It is an issue that affects the entire Underdark Community, not just the Circle.

[Kenshin]

Rasael is essentially correct regarding my intent.

There are a number of inherent challenges that players face in trying to get established in the Underdark. Some of these are well-known, certainly the difficulty of starting with a first level ECL 2 character and the relatively scarcity of players to party with have been discussed time and time again. But beyond these "hardships" there is also the matter of the unique nature of Sshamath within the Underdark. To those attracted by stereotypical Drow culture based upon worship of Lolth and matriarchal rule, Sshamath's arcane dominated political and social structure could come as something of a shock and perhaps a disappointment.

Personally, I love having the server's Underdark portion centered on Sshamath as, in my estimation, this setting gives a reasonable opportunity for a far broader spectrum of character concepts than a more traditional Drow city would. It is a complex and intricate environment however with highly specific lore, which in turn makes for challenging roleplay. It seems that some players find the subtleties of Ssahamath not to their taste or perhaps overly elaborate and instead rely on their own interpretations of the setting to guide their behavior. I do believe that veteran players with established characters in the Underdark can make a positive difference in offering information to new arrivals, helping them to get settled in, and encouraging them to use the extensive resources on the BGtSCC forums. Clearly, not everyone is going to choose to take advantage of such assistance, no matter how well-intentioned. There will always be those who will go their own way, and they have every right to do so as long as they observe the server's various rules.

As concerns the 7th Circle, whether or not the guild possesses clear guidelines and a mission statement, many of the players and, more specifically, their characters are not aware of it. This is why I suggested that, whether or not it is entirely justifiable on roleplay grounds, having at least semi-regular "meetings" would be a useful step. Doing so would provide the Circle with a prominent platform for all to see as well as give guildmembers an opportunity to air grievances, concerns, or simply to present their thoughts and ideas.

[NeOmega]

Yes, this is only a game and players come here to have fun, but there are rules and it is my belief that we as players should not only strive to operate within server rules (especially as regards PvP) but also observe basic decency towards other players.

I'm just not sure who was offended, except the DM that stepped in and fined everybody, even non-participants, 10,000 gold.

And you are calling something "basic decency" that I am not sure is.

I mean, I remember in one of the BG games, killing in a drow city was pretty common. Like I seem to remember they had a battle cage or something.

Furthermore, if two people want to have an honorable fight, (it was not a duel to the death, as that was forbidden by agreement until after the war with the Illithids was over), there is nowhere to do it, because of the chances of interference by monsters.

And honestly, I'm still not sure how I was supposed to know Varalla's passage was considered the city limits of SShamath. I read the rules, and it says, "there is map at the bottom, which clearly shows the only way out of Sshamath is through the central spire" or something like that. So you know... silly me, thinking "central spire is out of Sshamath" Guess I needed to read more of the forums, that the map should say... ...I don;t know how it could say anything but "the map shows Varrala's passage still within the city"

I mean, to me, it's pretty obvious the difference between the city and the tunnels, but I guess I was wrong, to the tune of a few day's grinding to get my 10000 gold back.

Regardless, turning the Cavern of Caravans into a mosh pit seems completely out of line.

Aren't we being a tad dramatic? I have played now for a couple of months, and only seen three PvP actions while in the UD. One was a surfacer (thaladon Australius) killing some new drow that tried to stop him from wandering around, one was a new toon mouthing off to valshar, and one was the fight my character (Scylinx) and DarkElfFan's character (Israenna) had, which was part of an ongoing feud. And no, I'm not giving up that ongoing feud.

So yeah, we got fined 10,000 each (enormous for a level 8 character), and yeah... it's not fun anymore. And yeah, I'm still mad about it. Finally had something good going, and someone had to ruin it. I have no idea why. I mean, that was like a fine I would expect to be leveled against someone for exploiting, or NPC killing or something like that.

[Aelcar]

Mate, this wasnt about you and Israe'anna . You were in the wrong place at the wrong time, I think...PM sent.

[TheVoid]

Consequences for actions done is not "ruining it" though I am sorry you feel that way about having IC consequences for IC actions enforced. However, the actions of the NPCs are used to prevent you from metagaming or godmodding the guards in SShamath or anywhere else a law enforcement presence remains. It's no one elses fault but the offenders that some players cannot separate their own far fetched agenda's despite what is right in front of them which would clearly put the kabosh on certain actions that defy the laws that have been set aside.

Negative reinforcement is used by law enforcement to penalize unlawful behavior no matter where you dwell. A city does not sustain itself by allowing murder and all sorts of violent crime to spill out into the streets. That would be complete anarchy and Drow society is far from anarchy by any means. They have law enforcement, they are evil and they are petty. I would argue more evil than any single drow PC because they have the power of a collective law enforcement agency to give your character a hard time and they will if given the opportunity. The DM's are not going to pull punches if players do not regard the actual environment or NPC's that will most likely react to deviant behavior, especially breaking laws that are heavily enforced.

The Varalla's passage is a HEAVY trade route in the lore of the setting. it is filled with caravans and all sorts of merchants and travelers who come to and from Sshamath for trade, recreation, study, etc... if anyone has read the lore in the source books or even on this forum, you would know that it is a heavily trafficed area even though IG it looks empty. It is sparse IG because we simply cannot add that many NPC's and placeables in such a small area to represent the large volume of traffic that comes through that tradeway. It is up to the player to read the lore and respect that it should have hundreds if not thousands of NPCs coming and going from the City. You can easily remember this by using your imagination instead of what is pixelated in front of your character.

The game has limitations on how much content we can add before performance is affected on both the server and player resources. So the lore is written with the premise that it would be read and players understand that they will have to suspend disbelief in order to coincide with the written lore.

[NeOmega]

Consequences for actions done is not "ruining it" though I am sorry you feel that way about having IC consequences for IC actions enforced. However, the actions of the NPCs are used to prevent you from metagaming or godmodding the guards in SShamath or anywhere else a law enforcement presence remains. It's no one elses fault but the offenders that some players cannot separate their own far fetched agenda's despite what is right in front of them which would clearly put the kabosh on certain actions that defy the laws that have been set aside.

And a 1000 gold fine and a stern warning is an IC punishment. A 10,000 gold fine is a DM pretty much de-leveling you for breaking an IC rule.

For example, when I RP, I charge people like 300 gold for things that will make them well over 2000 gold. People charge 200 gold for enchantments which can allow a level four player to wrack up 2000 gold in loot and beetle pincers. When it comes to player interaction in gold, the exchanges are for fun, not real economy. Another example, I was reading the paper at the library in candlekeep, and it said a banquet of the richest people in baldurs gate cost 300 gold to attend. Then it explained how three hundred gold was a ton of money, because the average person only made 2 gold a month or something like that.

I have read the forums on most of the real server rules. I have never read a DnD book or compendium and most of the information I know comes form these forums, as I had been reading them before I bought SoZ... ...which I bought solely to play this because it sounded neat. (I played SoZ probably for three hours)

My first underdark experience was my half-drow being threatened to be killed, in Varalla's passage, for being a half-breed. And I thought that was pretty cool, and really set a neat and different flavor for the UD from the "let's all be friends attitude" of the surface.

And I know the mods say "ignorance of the rules is no excuse" and I agree... ..for actual server rules, esp PvP rules, but a 10,000 gold fine on a level 8 character is just egregious for an IC infraction.

Let us also not forget, that in lore, all distances are much greater, than in game. You can travel from Baldur's gate to Beregost in 50 minutes. ((IIRC, 1 minute game time is supposed to represent 10 minutes real time). But in real lore, it is supposed to take a lot longer than that. Have you ever traveled a freeway at night? The police cannot be everywhere, and they have patrol cruisers. The fight Israeanna and I were having was far from the sights of the guards posted at the entrance, and the taunting started at the trade camp, but I said, "let's take this away from here" because I knew that in the camp it would be in the presence of a bunch of NPC's and guards.

Then there is the weird thing where the tunnels are supposed to be a major trade route... ..but to where? None of the tunnels lead to any other cities that I know of. I just now found out that Varalla's passage is supposed to be a highway... what? To where? All the tunnels lead to incredibly dangerous areas crawling with illithids and Basilisks. I would guess the actual trade routes between cities are a little less dangerous, and therefore not in the game, like most of the city of Sshamath, because adventurers don't need to peruse the hundreds of flowers shops and cafes of the underdark, just like they don't need to go down the well traveled and heavily trafficked roads.

And even the tone of your post, is mostly saying, "you got severely punished, because you (the player) did not read enough lore and have far-fetched, god-modding agendas OOC" not "you got punished because you (the character) broke an IC law".

You can easily remember this by using your imagination instead of what is pixelated in front of your character.


Am I wrong about the tone of the above line, in combination with others?

Negative reinforcement is used by law enforcement to penalize unlawful behavior no matter where you dwell. A city does not sustain itself by allowing murder and all sorts of violent crime to spill out into the streets.

it wasn't murder. Before the fight, we had a long argument, where scylinx was accusing ISraeanna of trying to get him to kill her, just so he could be tortured by the seventh circle. So that's why finally, it was agreed, Zix would sanction the fight, and end it before death happened.

The whole reason Scylinx joined the seventh circle was because Valshar told him, wonce the war was over with the illithids, he could have the chance to fight Israeanna to the death, but until then, there would be none of it. And that was understood.