Good aligned characters, fallacies and possible tips

[Valefort]

Or where a few impressions on RPing good aligned characters on this server can be read. This post is meant to show the other side of the coin, each alignement has its own difficulties and good is no exception. Some tips or tracks on how to roleplay your good aligned character can be found as well.

If you've read up on lore regarding the setting and are familiar with playing on D&D themed servers you may agree with parts of these statements :

• The setting works for the good guys
• Most characters are good aligned
• Good guys win in the end
• Good guys are defensive (and boring to play)

To which I answer no, no, no and absolutely no.

The setting works for you :

No, this is at best an half-truth. Below is a (massacred) map of the Sword Coast showing where the setting is mostly backing your actions as a good guy :

Everywhere else, you can easily get by.

Most people are good aligned :

False, most player characters are neutral aligned. The last server snapshots showed roughly 40% neutral characters, 31 % good, 29% evil.

Far from an overwhelming advantage, isn't it ? Furthermore neutral people are almost as susceptible as evil ones to screw with you, because while they don't like mean neighbors they'll also show you they're not good aligned.

In effect, and since we are playing NWN2 (where non-good PRCs and abilities are simply more powerful mechanically) you will almost always be outgunned and often outnumbered as well.

Good guys win in the end :

This is the simplest one. Contemplate the list of mayhem and destructions and corruption that happened on the server. Who's winning ? Bad guys, almost all the way. Play good aligned characters prepare to lose most of the time (granted, not always either).

One possible reason : good guys work double. Not only do they have to thwart their evil brethren players characters but they also can not ignore the various villains that the DMs summon from the depths of their souls (if they have any).

Good guys are defensive (and boring to play) :

False, at best it is a consequence from being overworked. Being good aligned is an active duty, you go out of your way to help others, think mother Teresa, Human Rights watch and various NGOs. They're not waiting for evil doers to knock on their doors.

In the same way on this server playing a good aligned character is not being a sitting duck. Your character has ideals and he strives to spread them, wether by fighting directly other beliefs through swords or words or by teaching through examples and accomplishments. Good is not stagnant.

"Baldur's Gate is a peaceful neutral city-state ? Its laws sure could use some improvements or leniency."

"Darkhold is rebuilt ? Preach on brother, time for a crusade to annihilate them all."

Those farmers are working so hard for so little .. I should use my immense intelligence and powers to help them and craft waterways or prvoide little services for free.

"Rodents, you said ? One exterminate spell is all you need my good madam. Need anything else that my magical power can solve ?"

You can (and ideally should) be as active and, in a way, agressive as the bad guys. If you don't do anything you're neutral aligned ... at best

[Deathgrowl]

I agree with every single word of Valefort. This is a good, informative post.

[Xanfyrst]

Goodies have to work double? Right... and Baddies don't? How about the fact that the Baddies have to not only fight the Goodies, but also other Baddies? And it's even worse if you consider the constant threat of backstabbery among your own group. And then we got the DM team throwing stuff at us at the same time. Also, meta-gaming is ever present, which arguably hurts Evil more than Good.

And we Baddies aren't particularly aggressive. We just put things in motion and wait till you guys screw it up, then we move in and win the day.

[7threalm]

i'm guessing once darkhold makes it in we will see more active evil players in the open, as opposed to the current system of of hiding your intentions and hanging out with the goody goods for dm xp even though it would shift your alignment to good.

I have seen numerous events where *evil* players hang out and do good deeds to mask their evil intentions(that never really show in game).

How many good deeds = alignment shift to good. I'm sure there is a player or to that that has ran so many "good events" their alignment should be good.

actions should reflect alignment, not some secret knowledge the player believes he is doing or not doing. ( I could say i'm trying to infiltrate so so organization only so many times)

I just hope there will be more evil dm events dedicated to being evil and consequences for being the always neutral guy.

Also playing a evil alignment is really hard to do so props for those "mains" that stay evil.

Also to combat the meta gaming, we hopefully will get a new disguise system in the future

[Nomster]

i'm guessing once darkhold makes it in we will see more active evil players in the open, as opposed to the current system of of hiding your intentions and hanging out with the goody goods for dm xp even though it would shift your alignment to good.

I have seen numerous events where *evil* players hang out and do good deeds to mask their evil intentions(that never really show in game).

How many good deeds = alignment shift to good. I'm sure there is a player or to that that has ran so many "good events" their alignment should be good.

A character who continues to do evil deeds can never get a good alignment, no matter how goodly he acts. The good he does, does not cancel out the evil. The most he could get is neutral alignment but if he continues to for example murder people, it ticks him down to evil again.

For that alignment shift to good to happen, a character needs to do good deeds whilst abstaining from evil. The motives of a character also needs to be taken into account. He may act good but his motives may be sinister. Going from evil to good aligned should be a difficult process and take time.

[thids]

Let's not push this topic into alignment shifts because sooner or later someone will mention the "P.....N" word and then it officially becomes a "P.....N" thread

[Eclypticon]

A character who continues to do evil deeds can never get a good alignment, no matter how goodly he acts. The good he does, does not cancel out the evil. The most he could get is neutral alignment but if he continues to for example murder people, it ticks him down to evil again.

For that alignment shift to good to happen, a character needs to do good deeds whilst abstaining from evil. The motives of a character also needs to be taken into account. He may act good but his motives may be sinister. Going from evil to good aligned should be a difficult process and take time.

Agreed. Just because you are doing good things, does not make you good. My PCs do good things all the time, but their motives are deeply hidden in the web entangling their dark hearts. I think the best that could happen along the course is they become lawful neutral, but it is a long shot. A total transformation to good should involve divine intervention.

[7threalm]

so an evil player could only attain the following alignments without divine help ( I'm going to assume dm related stuff for any shift to good).

So the maximum alignment for an evil person could be shifted would be any of these (not without gripes)

Lawful neutral--------True neutral ----- Chaotic neutral
Lawful evil -----------Neutral evil ------ Chaotic evil

I just think the alignment system should only matter if a "class requires an alignment" and that you should somewhat rp the class that requires that alignment"

other then that it just really doesn't matter your views etc as far as game mechanics are concerned. ( except in your personal character development).

ps. I guess that why they dropped a lot in 4e

[Darksider_war]

This is the simplest one. Contemplate the list of mayhem and destructions and corruption that happened on the server. Who's winning ? Bad guys, almost all the way. Play good aligned characters prepare to lose most of the time (granted, not always either).

One possible reason : good guys work double. Not only do they have to thwart their evil brethren players characters but they also can not ignore the various villains that the DMs summon from the depths of their souls (if they have any).

Here's another option available: Good guys play it dumb. One can play a dumb evil character as much as one can play a dumb good character.

[Valefort]

Goodies have to work double? Right... and Baddies don't? How about the fact that the Baddies have to not only fight the Goodies, but also other Baddies? And it's even worse if you consider the constant threat of backstabbery among your own group. And then we got the DM team throwing stuff at us at the same time. Also, meta-gaming is ever present, which arguably hurts Evil more than Good.

And we Baddies aren't particularly aggressive. We just put things in motion and wait till you guys screw it up, then we move in and win the day.

How about the fact that good guys don't agree with each other either ? It's not Alice in Wonderland and the powerplay and dissent among good guys is present, as is the constant threat of backstabbery by hidden infilitrators.

I'm sure the DM team throws stuff at you but really, can it compare to the rest ? Sorry I'm not buying that Xanfryst. As for metagaming hurting evil more than good ... just no, it is as hurtful for everyone. Between that and your last sentence toning down the arrogance would be wonderful, it's a cooperative story telling and you're not helping with derogatory comments and this condescending attitude, you're no better.

[DM Asgorath]

And we Baddies aren't particularly aggressive. We just put things in motion and wait till you guys screw it up, then we move in and win the day.

Evil guys aren't bereft of occasions to hugely screw it up as well. I'd say that things are currently balanced between goodies vs baddies, in the sense that no side is hugely advantaged against the other, the way things currently are (especially after the showdown at Triel).

I'd also like to point out that the goodies are subject to metagaming as much as the baddies are, especially if they belong to secret organizations.

Anyway, I am not defending valefort here, just saying that playing on the good side has its risks as well.

[Atlas]

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[Valefort]

For the map, all credits go to mungomunk, the rest is there : http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?t=34870

[Considerate_]

I have a great deal of respect for those who can truly play a bad guy and pull it off well, I'm aware it take tremendous work. But in my opinion it's far easier to break something, than it is to put it together.

Quick example in bullet points of how to make a pencil today:
- You cut down tree
- Transport it to a facility
- Cut the tree into 'pencil stocks'
- Cutting the stocks into individual pencil stocks
- Treating the pencil with wax and stain
- Another equally long process to procure writing cores
- Glue the pencil stocks around the writing cores

aaaand you got a pencil!

Here's the bullet points for breaking it.
- Acquire pencil.
- place both hands on either end of the pencil, and apply pressure.



The thing about breaking stuff however, is that someone has to have built it till you can do that... so if you want to be the bad guy, remember to have some appreciation for all the effort people have put into building it up, and try not to be 'that' kid with a hammer in kindergarden, breaking all the others toys without really knowing what to do when he's done.

There's a way to have fun, without breaking all the others toys. And if you do break it, make sure that your character brings something new into the playing field. I remember playing on a server, where the bad guys finally managed to attack, sack, and eventually conquer the main city on the server.
Once they had it however, it all just went downhill, because there was no plans after that - and all the good guys who didn't want to live in the city, migrated to a new place and started having fun there.



Just a few thoughts on the matter, essentially I don't think one group of players necessarily got it worse than the next. Just remember this isn't a competition, we're here to have fun and enjoy some good times with others of like mind

[testmon]

How about the fact that good guys don't agree with each other either ? It's not Alice in Wonderland and the powerplay and dissent among good guys is present, as is the constant threat of backstabbery by hidden infilitrators.

but good guys are still good guys. they can be sure to not end up dead, killed by their own allies at the end of their event. good guys backstabbery is one thing, bad guys backstabbery is oftern the literal stabbing of backs. which can lead to whole eventchains failing. i do know that because i am at the end of a certain eventchain right now and if the others involved decide to betray the cause then 2 years work will be void, won't happen to goodies.

or just blurting out the secrets of their organisation to the public or semi public.

I'm sure the DM team throws stuff at you but really, can it compare to the rest ? Sorry I'm not buying that Xanfryst. As for metagaming hurting evil more than good ... just no, it is as hurtful for everyone. Between that and your last sentence toning down the arrogance would be wonderful, it's a cooperative story telling and you're not helping with derogatory comments and this condescending attitude, you're no better.

and frankly i see no way how metagaming can hurt the good guys the same as the bad guys.

i once read, that when they still were playable, a very high if not leading pc of the flaming fist was evil.

now imagine people learning that ingame, what would happen?

now imagine the opposite case, people learning that he was good, what would happen then?



and as for good guys haveing it harder, here's a nice little story:

a few times, not very often because of the very reason i am telling this story, somone wrote me a a private message ingame. the content of that message was informing me that after my Char talked with someone, a good allinged Char approached him/her warning that person to better avoid any contact to my char because they were told "she's rotten/shifty/whatever"

that always makes me think when at between one meeting and the other people completely change how they act upon you.

sure its not metagaming per se to act on knowledge you aquired years ago from second hand sources but i do not really see a good alligned character haveing those problems

I have a great deal of respect for those who can truly play a bad guy and pull it off well, I'm aware it take tremendous work. But in my opinion it's far easier to break something, than it is to put it together.

Quick example in bullet points of how to make a pencil today:
- You cut down tree
- Transport it to a facility
- Cut the tree into 'pencil stocks'
- Cutting the stocks into individual pencil stocks
- Treating the pencil with wax and stain
- Another equally long process to procure writing cores
- Glue the pencil stocks around the writing cores

aaaand you got a pencil!

Here's the bullet points for breaking it.
- Acquire pencil.
- place both hands on either end of the pencil, and apply pressure.



The thing about breaking stuff however, is that someone has to have built it till you can do that... so if you want to be the bad guy, remember to have some appreciation for all the effort people have put into building it up, and try not to be 'that' kid with a hammer in kindergarden, breaking all the others toys without really knowing what to do when he's done.

There's a way to have fun, without breaking all the others toys. And if you do break it, make sure that your character brings something new into the playing field. I remember playing on a server, where the bad guys finally managed to attack, sack, and eventually conquer the main city on the server.
Once they had it however, it all just went downhill, because there was no plans after that - and all the good guys who didn't want to live in the city, migrated to a new place and started having fun there.



Just a few thoughts on the matter, essentially I don't think one group of players necessarily got it worse than the next. Just remember this isn't a competition, we're here to have fun and enjoy some good times with others of like mind

two things about this:

a: the notion that bad guys are there only to destroy instead of building on their own is just...well maybe a biiiiit arrogant or rather showing the attitude of some players of "bad guys are just there so we can have an enemy".

in fact i would say that it is quite different a bad guy building something like, say, a guild or beware it something in the open, will always have the trouble of a random bunch of paladins just showing up and playing boss. the very moment word gets out that somewhere something is happening you can count the seconds until the first bunch of those shows up to inspect the situation. i fully expect that the moment darkhold gets in we'll have a bunch of those standing around eyeing who goes in and who comes out. and in my experience, paladins (and when i say paladin i mean just about any char that acts like one, i can't see the builds people have) get through with things that gets evils the banhammer.

b: you example fails terribly when applied to the server, my char literally can't break your pencil without a DM saying that the pencil is now broken. if a bunch of bad guys would start going mental in BG or Doron Amar right now, the only thing that would happen would be bans and retcons



look at that, i deleted my last post here because i didn't want to be the one starting that discussion...seems i have no trouble joining it though