How to handle Warlocks and Tieflings?

[PaulImposteur]

Bullet Questions!

In game, if someone is an 'Open' Warlock;

Are open Warlocks KoS?

Is it a crime to have conspired with demons for powers?

Is it a Crime even if they admit their pact was with a fey?

Does this allow for Vigilantism, to punish the Warlock?

Is Aiding a Warlock a crime by association?

Will Guards (NPCs) apprehend a Warlock for questioning?

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How would a Lawful Good Paladin (Or Cleric of similar nature) handle a Tiefling?

Would it be considered an 'Evil' act to attempt to harm a Tiefling, only because of their fiendish heritage?

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Thanks for answering all the questions,

Paul

[DM Eurydice]

Hello PaulImposteur,

I'll try to answer your questions to the best of my ability.

Are open Warlocks KoS?

No.

Is it a crime to have conspired with demons for powers?

That depends on where you are. I'm fairly certain Sshamath and Darkhold has a different view than say Baldur's Gate and Amn.

You can ready more in Law of the Lands for the individual country's view on demons: http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=21492

Is it a Crime even if they admit their pact was with a fey?

I must confess I'm uncertain on this one.

Does this allow for Vigilantism, to punish the Warlock?

Vigilantism is by definition unlawful, it means taking the law into your own hands without adhering to the legal procedures. So no, you're not allowed to play judge, jury, and executioner in any lawful society.

Is Aiding a Warlock a crime by association?

I'll defer to a more experienced DM on this one. I'd say it's circumstantial, it's a crime if you're aiding them in summoning a demon in Baldur's Gate. It's not a crime if you're helping them fend off a group of orcs attacking the Farmlands east of Baldur's Gate.

Will Guards (NPCs) apprehend a Warlock for questioning?

Depends on what city you're in,
Sshamath, Darkhold: No
Baldur's Gate, Amn: Quite possibly

Just be aware that the guards might require more information than a stranger accusing Y of being a warlock. If said warlock is standing in the townsquare of the Gate and proclaiming his affiliation to Asmodeus or another Archfiend however... Definitely. Yes.


For the last two questions, I can recommend that you read the Book of Exalted deeds. The first 12-20 pages alone holds a lot of important information on how to play a truly good character in D&D.

Heroic characters often end up at odds with their culture and society. The standards expected of good characters in D&D, especially those who lay claim to exalted status, bear much more similarity to modern sensibilities about justice, equality, and respect for life than to the actual medieval world that D&D is loosely based on, and that is quite intentional

How would a Lawful Good Paladin (Or Cleric of similar nature) handle a Tiefling?

With unease and initial distrust, your first assumption would be that the tiefling is quite possible evil. This does not mean "OFF WITH ITS HEAD!"

It means that your character will be vary of observing them to see if their actions coincide with your initial distrust. Your character would quite likely be intent on redeeming them of their evil ways, if you think it possible.

Would it be considered an 'Evil' act to attempt to harm a Tiefling, only because of their fiendish heritage?

Yes. It's even considered unjust to launch an attack on a tribe of evil orcs, if it comes without porovcation. There mere existence of evil orcs is not a just cause for war against them, if the orcs have been causing no harm.

Good implies altruism and respect for life. All (sentient) life.

[odyssey]

*Summons can be attacked with a glance, but the usual rules should be observed for PvP called him (the player). Owner agenda should also follow the usual rules of PvP, to attack the murderer of his or her call. (Calls include any creature that can be caused by a spell or ability, and they are not familiar or Animal Companion:. These include angels, devils, elementals and undead, etc.)* source http://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3170

[NegInfinity]

Are open Warlocks KoS?

No.

Is it a crime to have conspired with demons for powers?

Yes. Well... dealing with devils is evil thing to do. It depends on local laws. If society doesn't like devils, then it is a crime... however, power of law... erm bureaucracy may prevent you from doing anything about it. (a crime occured too long ago, outside of jurisdiction, you have no proof, etc)

Is it a Crime even if they admit their pact was with a fey?

NO idea. Don't play feylocks. However... forces of feywild (fey that makes pacts) are fickle and unpredictable. They are chaos, and they are dangerous. A lawful character would have hard time understanding why someone would make any kind of deal with those.

Does this allow for Vigilantism, to punish the Warlock?

Vigilantism is a crime, I believe. Lawful way to handle situation is report the crime to proper authorities.

Is Aiding a Warlock a crime by association?

If he/she is commiting a crime, then probably yes. Creating undead, summoning devils, etc. Some warlocks are capable of that. Your char may or may not know about that.

How would a Lawful Good Paladin (Or Cleric of similar nature) handle a Tiefling?[/b]

Depends on how lawful and how good paladin is, and how educated that paladin is. "LAwful good" does not mean "lawful nice". Could be distrust, hatred, or pity (if paladin is saintly forgiving type), because tieflings have no say in choosing their heritage. You could also mistake tiefling for a real devil/demon and attempt to apprehend him/her by smiting.

Remember, though, even if you hate something, you would still be bound by your paladinly code of conduct.

Would it be considered an 'Evil' act to attempt to harm a Tiefling, only because of their fiendish heritage?

Here's full explanation of good/evil:

Hidden: show

The Player’s Handbook says, “‘Evil’implies hurting,oppressing,and killing others.Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualm if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.”
....


INTENT AND CONTEXT
So, does the objective definition of evil imply that intent plays no part in determining what is good and what isn’ t? Only to a degree.

Consider the paladin Zophas.When climbing to the top of a hill of loose rocks to get away from some owlbears, he triggers a rockslide that buries the owlbears and continues down the hill,crushing a hut full of commoners.Is Zophas an evil murderer who must suddenly lose his lawful good alignment?No, although Zophas might still feel guilt and responsibility. He might attempt to right the inadvertent wrong as best he can.

But what if Zophas’ s friend Shurrin said,“Don’ t climb up there,Zophas!Y ou might start a rock slide that will crush the hut!”Zophas goes anyway.Now is it evil?Probably.Zophas was either carelessly endangering the commoners or so overconfident of his climbing prowess that he acted out of hubris.At this point,Zophas isn’ t exactly a murderer,but he should probably lose his paladin abilities until he receives an atonement spell or otherwise makes amends.

If Zophas can clearly see the danger of the rock slide but climbs up anyway because he wants to get away from the owlbears, that’ s clearly evil. In a world of black-and-white distinctions between good and evil, killing innocents to save yourself is an evil act. Sacrificing yourself for the good of others is a good act.It’ s a high standard,but that’ s
the way it is.

The foregoing text defines three levels of intent:accidental acts, reckless or negligent acts, and intentionally evil misdeeds.Sometimes,however,those categories are insufficient to determine evil intent.You are free to judge an act in the context of other actions.

A maniac puts poison in a town’ s water supply, believing (wrongly) that all of the people in the town are demons. Is that evil? Yes.A glabrezu convinces a good character that the townsfolk are all fiends that must be destroyed,so the character pours poison into the town’s water supply.Is that evil? Probably not—at least, not in the context of the rest of the character’ s actions and the circumstances involved. Still, good characters shouldn’ t commit even remotely questionable acts on a large scale unless they’re absolutely sure there’ s no other way to succeed. It’ s rarely a good idea to destroy a town of evil people,because there might be at least a few good people in the town as well.

But let’s make it even more complicated.Another character witnesses the good character about to put poison in the town’ s drinking water. Is it evil for the witness to kill the poisoning character in order to stop him?No.Again,the intent isn’t evil, and the context makes such an act preferable to the alternative. Standing by while a mass murder occurs—the
other choice the witness has—is far more evil than preventing the poisoning.

It would probably be evil act if you know that it is not a devil and have no proof of char being guilty of something and still attempt to slay the tiefling. Or if character begs you for mercy and you still decide to go smiting route.

P.S. Please, consider NOT playing overly tolerant character. Being horrified by something that has glowing red eyes, horns, smells of brimstone is normal. Distrusting warlocks is normal, since majority are fiend-pacted (your char might not know that), and are quite dangerous, and your char can be aware of that if he/she witnessed warlocks in action in the past. When people properly roleplay distrust hostility to both of those, game becomes much more fun (especially for the tiefling/warlock player), because you need to be constantly thinking whether it is time to flee/fight yet or not.

[ZabelSword]

Yes. It's even considered unjust to launch an attack on a tribe of evil orcs, if it comes without porovcation. There mere existence of evil orcs is not a just cause for war against them, if the orcs have been causing no harm.

I find this bit odd considering just about everyone on the server goes hunting lizardfolk and xvarts on a regular basis. I'd go so far as to say that most of the spawning monsters haven't done anything to anyone

[DM Eurydice]

I'd go so far as to say that most of the spawning monsters haven't done anything to anyone

I'm not sure what you base that on. The lizards, Xvarts, and orcs in those areas have given everyone with a Lawful Good alignment more than ample reason to go hunt them down. Despite the mechanical limitations that prevents them from transitioning, you can be quite sure that from a lore perspective (and several DM events over the years), have been out and about to hunt and make the lives miserable for both adventures, nobles, traders, and commoners. They are not just tribes of evil creatures that only spawn in that area and never leave. They hunt, raid, and scavenge - and yes, defend themselves when the forces of good retaliate.

If Lawful Good adventures were to target non-combatant lizards, Xvarts, and orcs (old, infants, crippled etc.) for extermination simply by deed of association, that would be another matter entirely.

[Storm Munin]

Official novel dwarf lore on what battle holler to use when breaching a orc lair: - Wheres the babies room!!


Forget decency and modern humanism when dealing with pure monster races, good aligned or not.

IMHO

[TeoDeathDealer]

A couple of general comments about teiflings and warlocks on this server:

Baldurs Gate has the largest majority of tiefling by population than any other city. So, generally speaking, they are accepted on the Coast.

Warlocks are not immediately KOS unless they spawn undead or demons, or commit what would be considered an evil act, e.g. flaying Teris in the Market Square.

Due to player actions, warlocks are generally given a pass. Several warlocks have made it into prominent positions, for example, the Guide of Candlekeep.

That doesn't mean a player cannot have a viscous anti-warlock bent. Just be aware of the laws and the above and your play should remain safe.

[DM Golem]

Forget decency and modern humanism when dealing with pure monster races, good aligned or not.

IMHO

But not in the opinion of D&D alignment sourcebooks, which are what matter - DM Eurydice quoted directly from BOED. It should be noted that BOED describes lobbing a fireball into an orc camp to kill the warriors but also carelessly (but not accidentally) catching non-combatants as an evil act. Clearly intentional targeting of such would also shift a good character towards evil on the good vs evil axis.

Although as I understand it the general policy on alignment change is light touch, such changes I would make in an event would be made in accordance with the official explanation on how alignment works in the sourcebooks.

[Atlas]

-

[Rasael]

The problem with Forgotten Realms novels as sources is that they are written from the perspective of the main-characters. Usually. And that perspective is not always accurate and can be reserved for future plot twists, or simply be wrong, or exaggerated.

Other issues are that novels don't usually take place in the BGTSCC time period. Most occur well after the Time of Troubles. Right now we are 10 years before the Time of Troubles, which is portrayed in the Avatar series.

Is it a crime to have conspired with demons for powers?

In normal civilized lands it is considered forebidden to deal with demons and devils. There are evil civilized places where this is not the case but the tendency is paranoid caution, because demons have historically invaded Faerun and are the stuff of horrible legends as a consequence. (based in truth)

I think you can compare it with Necromancy, specifically raising the dead. Its kind of the same corner from the perspective of civilized society. Dangerous and therefore undersirable, illegal.

Is it a Crime even if they [Warlocks] admit their pact was with a fey?.

Your question essentially asks if being a warlock is a crime if your power comes elsewhere than from demons or devils.

The answer to that is yes. But that is a deceiving answer because most societies will judge you by whether or not you are threat. It doesn't specifically matter where your power comes from, unless that itself happens to be a dangerous source. The problem with Fey pacts is that they are almost always made with the unseelie (evil, deceitful, selfish) fey. In that sense society won't have much reason to trust that a particualr individual will prove to be the exception who is not bound to such creatures.

But that already passes beyond what most would understand about Warlocks. The term Warlock is understood by regular people (and guards) as refering to people who draw their power from some wicked source. Which is automatically assumed to be from the Hells or Abyss. So when a Warlock claims to derive power from another entity he runs into the problem of evidence: How can you prove you aren't lying about the source of your power?
Why should common folk believe you when evil warlocks (like necromancers and evil cultists) are reknowned for killing innocents and doing evil deeds.

So while in theory it is not a crime in practice you will be convicted. Because the burden of evidence for your innocence is on you, the warlock. This only really changes if you manage to build a personal reputation as a hero. Which means you need to gain more than the acceptance of your fellow adventurers, if they don't lynch you to begin with. But getting their acceptance is a good start because it gives you a place to build from.

Just don't expect the guards or commoners to automatically take the word of your own character or his companions. Evil warlocks have their own companions too, after all.

The way mages or clergy would feel about you are kind of a different story. They might be able to tell the source of your power after extensive study (not a glance, I'd imagine). So that could lead them to trust you, or at least to realize and accept that they might be wrong to assume you are pacted to a demon or devil.

That's how I would summarize my view on Warlocks based on what I've read on them in the Forgotten Realms setting.

[NegInfinity]

I find this bit odd considering just about everyone on the server goes hunting lizardfolk and xvarts on a regular basis. I'd go so far as to say that most of the spawning monsters haven't done anything to anyone

Those monsters attack you on sight. You can go there, and blame it all on self-defense, if you want. That still won't be necessarily a good act, though. If you go there just to provoke them into attacking you so you can kill them in self-defense... doesn't sound "good" for me.

Warlocks are not immediately KOS unless they spawn undead or demons, or commit what would be considered an evil act, e.g. flaying Teris in the Market Square.

Dangerous statement here. Spawning undead/devil does not make you KoS, only a criminal. The monsters you spawn are KoS, though. Attacking summoner requires roleplay and hostile toggle, first, as per pvp rules.

How can you prove you aren't lying about the source of your power?

Why should common folk believe you when evil warlocks (like necromancers and evil cultists) are reknowned for killing innocents and doing evil deeds.

Well, because of awesome charisma and maxed initimidate/bluff skill, maybe? I'm kidding of course.

Complete arcane documents attitude populace has to various spellcasters, at page 163.

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Even more so than sorcerers, warlocks tend to be viewed with great suspicion and fear, and only the most infamous necromancers come close to provoking the distrust and enmity that warlocks commonly elicit. Even the least superstitious know that a warlock’s power is derived from dangerous and evil patrons, and even a warlock whose worth has been proven time and again in the service of good might still be thought to have the potential for dark treachery.

Few towns or cities will long abide a known warlock in their midst—low-level warlocks often risk being assaulted by pitch-fork-wielding mobs. Warlocks of moderate power rarely need fear outright attack, but they might find themselves subject to a variety of hints (subtle or otherwise) that their presence is unwanted. High-level warlocks are generally considered far too dangerous to offend, but they can often find themselves subject to harassment of a different sort as successive waves of crusading adventurers show up on their doorsteps, each intent on eliminating such a clearly malevolent threat.

Warlocks fare a little better when under the protection of a local lord, but few good-hearted nobles freely offer a warlock employment. The reputation of these fell arcanists is simply too black, and it takes a lord of exceptional wisdom and character to ignore a warlock’s fearsome reputation and look into the heart of the person beneath the stereotype.

Like the sorcerer, the warlock is valued far less for his counsel and knowledge than for his ability to wreak havoc against his foes, and those rare few who obtain a powerful patron likely serve as bodyguards or highly capable arcane warriors. Most warlocks never swear fealty to another individual, though, preferring to wield their unique power only in their own name.

[Valkyrie]

If Lawful Good adventures were to target non-combatant lizards, Xvarts, and orcs (old, infants, crippled etc.) for extermination simply by deed of association, that would be another matter entirely.

DM ruling is that attacking any Grey Orc PC's not actively engaged in combat, is now an Evil act? They are simply associated with an evil race.

[DM Narshe]

For purposes of extermination by deed of association was the key part of that statement.

[DM Eurydice]

DM ruling is that attacking any Grey Orc PC's not actively engaged in combat, is now an Evil act? They are simply associated with an evil race.

If that Grey Orc Player Character is playing an infant, cripple, or otherwise infirm and completely defenceless, then yes - slaughtering them for the crime of merely existing is an evil deed as per the Book of Exalted Deeds. It's not a DM ruling, it's a DnD ruling - I can recommend reading the book if you're in doubt about how to play a good character, it contains a lot of valuable information on that subject