Divine Seeker seems lackluster

[seawied]

I REALLY like the concept of the Divine Seeker from an RP standpoint, but from a practical standpoint it's just not all there.

Low hit dice (D6), only medium BAB, and requiring five levels to get 2d6 worth of sneak attack. To top it off, this prestige class requires 10 move silently, 8 hide, 5 spot, 3 lore and the Feat Stealthy (which does not tie into any other feats). All the in all, this class is significantly weaker than just taking a straight rogue.

Let's look at the abilities:

Sacred Stealth
Maximum bonus given: temporarily +5 to hide/+5 to move silently. Can be used 3/day at max level. Duration: 2x your charisma modifier.

This is a very minimal bonus that will not enhance your character in a significant way. By comparison, Camouflage is a level 1 ranger spell that gives +10 to hide by itself with a duration tide to caster level. Camouflage will last longer in a practical build as well.

Ruling: very weak ability, C-

Sacred Defense: +2 to saving throws (at level 4). Plain and simple, pretty useful. This won't define your build, but it is certainly very nice to have.

Ruling: Useful, B+

Trapsense: +1 reflex save against traps and +1 AC versus traps. If you are taking Divine seeker as one of your classes, chances are you have rogue, monk, ranger, or a class with hide/MS as a class skills. These classes all tend to have very high reflex saves. Overall, this is an incredibly forgettable ability.

Ruling: Asinine, D+

Trapfinding: Finding traps with a DC higher than 20. Please note, this only refers to FINDING them and not DISABLING them. Only a rogue can disable a trap with a DC higher than 20.

Ruling: very weak ability, C-

Divine perseverance: If a 4th-level or higher divine seeker is brought to -1 hit points or lower, she automatically heals a number of hit points equal to 3d6 + her Charisma bonus (if any). This ability is usable once per day.

3d6 hit points is not much, and it does not trigger unless you are bleeding out. 90% of the time at high levels you do not enter bleed out because of how much damage is tossed about. This ability is awful.

Ruling: Next to useless, D-


You also get skill focus: disable device, search for free. Again, nice to have but not exactly impressive.


I really want to like this class, but justifying taking it outside of RP reasoning is very difficult to do.


Here are my suggestions:

• * Change BAB from medium to high.
  * Change Sacred Stealth to give bonus to hide/ms based off 2x your divine seeker level.
  * Change Sacred Stealth's duration to 1 minute + 2 minutes per charisma modifier.
  * Have Divine Perseverance trigger on death inside of bleed out so it becomes a marginally useful skill.

These slight changes will make this prestige class more competitive with the rogue base class. You will have a smaller sneak attack modifier if you take Divine Seeker, but you will be able to hit slightly more consistently.

Sacred Stealth would actually have more of an impact. With +10 points in Hide/MS and a slightly longer duration, it makes it competitive with other spells like Camouflage. The limited number of castings for it will prevent it from being obscenely overpowered as well.

I feel that other changes would likely need to be made in order to make this class more viable, but I am a fan of fewer, smaller changes over time as opposed to heavy-handed changes all at once.

[Aelcar]

I agree the class is not impressive. I do, however, disagree with a few of your points:

-) Stealthy is a must have feat for a stealth based sneak, and a pre-req of Guild Thief, which is an excellent PrC.

-) 2d6 SA isn't so terrible for 5 lvl.

-) Camouflage can be used in addition to Sacred Stealth, which by the way is one of the VERY few options to up your MS. +5/+5 is fine, and the 3xday is also acceptable: the duration is however awful. I would change it.

-) Trapfinding: you are wrong about this. Divine Seeker inherits Rogue's ability to disable traps with DC superior to 20 as well. This is huge, actually.

-) Divine Perseverance combined with Defensive Roll (pre-req for Epic Dodge) can, and will save you a lot of times. It basically mean that with this and Epic Dodge, you won't be one-shot when you are out of stealth, after your first flurry. This is obviously as crucial as it gets.

On your changes:

- High BAB is too strong.
- Sacred Stealth to 1 min/DS level + 1 min/CHA mod. It stays +5/+5

When you take Divine Seeker, you shouldn't be a Rogue: that's the whole point of the class (Trapfinding, for instance). It complements very well Blackguard (CHA synergy and sneak attacks) and Bard (CHA synergy and trapfindings) for instance. It's a bit like Ghost-Faced Killer.

[NeOmega]

Needs divine spell progression.

[mrieder79]

Agree with aelcar. +5/+5 for the duration he suggested. +5/+5 is a pretty darn sweet bonus. I also agree that some limited Divine Spellcasting progression would be appropriate. Maybe 2 or 3 of the 5 levels.

[PiaMango]

The main problem I have with the class is the skills. It seems divine seeker is catered towards clerics/bards who want some sneaky/trap finding skills. The skill requirements for the class (spot is not so nice for bard or cleric) and less skills per level means that I would be loosing out on about 20 skill points total over rogue when I would be primarily taking the class for access to more skills, its counter intuitive. Evasion by itself is in my opinion better on its own over the divine seeker goodies.

In 99% of the situations rogue is simply better, unless you are trying to avoid xp penalties.

I would either lower the skill requirements and up the skills per level, or give them some other goodies as mentioned in this thread. 2/5 spell progression would make it more viable for clerics/bards. I would increase the duration of the stealth bonus, not the bonus itself.

[Theodore01]

Piamango got a good point here. Lower the skill requirements somewhat and add tumble as a class skill. It would fit a sneaky character.

Ohh and as it is called divine seeker - add some spell progression but for divine casters only.

[Ivan38Rus]

Fairly certain, Divine seeker doesn't get trapfinding

[seawied]

The information I am basing this on is from the Wiki.

http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Divine_Seeker

To Aelcar, I would like to dispute some of your claims:

Stealthy is a must have feat for a stealth based sneak.

You can get this feat from items in the server, as my stealth based attacker does. Also, your claim that that a character who takes divine seeker is likely to take Guild Thief tends to pigeonhole people. I'm not arguing that this requirement should be removed, but the Stealthy feat is avoidable for many sneak builds.

2D6 isn't so terrible for 5 lvl

No, but a rogue would get that in 3 levels. Assassin gets 2d6 Death Attack in 3 levels, and that is a FAR more powerful ability. Also, an evil character needs fewer requirements to take Assassin as a prestige class.

Trapfinding: you are wrong about this.

I cannot find a source that says divine seekers get this. I would love to be wrong on this, but could you provide proof? Unless you are speaking from experience with a nonrogue divine seeker and are 100% certain that this can be the case.

On your changes:

- High BAB is too strong.

With medium progression, a maxed out Divine Seeker will have +3 BAB. A high BAB change would only give it up to +5 BAB. If Divine Seeker had 10 class levels, I would agree with you, but an overall change of +2 BAB isn't much.


I would also like to point out one inconsistency with your argument.
You claim at the end:

When you take Divine Seeker, you shouldn't be a Rogue: that's the whole point of the class

but earlier on you make this argument about Divine Perseverance:

Divine Perseverance combined with Defensive Roll (pre-req for Epic Dodge) can, and will save you a lot of times.

The only ways I am aware you can get defensive roll is by taking Rogue, or by taking Shadow Dancer up to 5. So this class either needs to take Rogue, which you state you disagree with doing, or pump dexterity up to 19 and take 5 levels of Shadow Dancer.

[Blackman D]

cutting the prereq skills to 5 H/MS and spot would be ok? leaving the 3 lore

any perhaps 3/5 divine progression on levels they dont get SA, the 2d6 can be moved to 4th level so the distribution is even and more in line with SA progression of other classes being every other level

[seawied]

cutting the prereq skills to 5 H/MS and spot would be ok? leaving the 3 lore

any perhaps 3/5 divine progression on levels they dont get SA, the 2d6 can be moved to 4th level so the distribution is even and more in line with SA progression of other classes being every other level

This would be an interesting way to go about this. It would enable people to choose a class that does not have H/MS and simply cross class these skill points.

It would be a good way for someone to start off a cleric then go to Divine Seeker and use the sneak attack bonus to fulfill the requirements for Black Flame Zealot.

[Eclypticon]

Ya, some divine spell progression would be a boon. Lets be careful about how or what we take off any skill requirements. A minor amount off at the most.

[Aelcar]

Fairly certain, Divine seeker doesn't get trapfinding

Yes, it actually does.

Stealthy is a must have feat for a stealth based sneak.

You can get this feat from items in the server, as my stealth based attacker does. Also, your claim that that a character who takes divine seeker is likely to take Guild Thief tends to pigeonhole people. I'm not arguing that this requirement should be removed, but the Stealthy feat is avoidable for many sneak builds.

One, the items with the feat Stealthy that I have seen have crap to nonexistent + Hide/MS, thus defeating the very purpose of the feat. Short-sighted of you.

Two, you don't NEED to take GT. GT is simply an excellent PrC you MIGHT consider.

Every feat is avoidable for everyone. Stealthy is a VERY important feat on a stealth-based character. Your request for +10/+10 Hide/MS bonus and subsequent claim Stealthy is avoidable are incongruous.

2D6 isn't so terrible for 5 lvl

No, but a rogue would get that in 3 levels. Assassin gets 2d6 Death Attack in 3 levels, and that is a FAR more powerful ability. Also, an evil character needs fewer requirements to take Assassin as a prestige class.

Assassin is one of the best PrC in the game. Divine Seeker isn't going to be as good as Assassin, mechanically. Also, ANY alignment can take Assassin.

Trapfinding: you are wrong about this.

I cannot find a source that says divine seekers get this. I would love to be wrong on this, but could you provide proof? Unless you are speaking from experience with a nonrogue divine seeker and are 100% certain that this can be the case.

Not only mine, but also an old acquaintance of ours: Simian used to build in Divine Seeker for his non-Rogue characters with exactly that in mind. You cannot find the source because this is Kaedrin's PrC, not an original NWN2 one.

On your changes:

- High BAB is too strong.

With medium progression, a maxed out Divine Seeker will have +3 BAB. A high BAB change would only give it up to +5 BAB. If Divine Seeker had 10 class levels, I would agree with you, but an overall change of +2 BAB isn't much.

No. A 10 lvl investment is much more crucial to a build than a 5 lvl one. Especially for this kind of character. High BAB is too strong.

I would also like to point out one inconsistency with your argument.
You claim at the end:

When you take Divine Seeker, you shouldn't be a Rogue: that's the whole point of the class

but earlier on you make this argument about Divine Perseverance:

Divine Perseverance combined with Defensive Roll (pre-req for Epic Dodge) can, and will save you a lot of times.

The only ways I am aware you can get defensive roll is by taking Rogue, or by taking Shadow Dancer up to 5. So this class either needs to take Rogue, which you state you disagree with doing, or pump dexterity up to 19 and take 5 levels of Shadow Dancer.

1) The fact I don't recommend taking the class as a Rogue does not mean it's forbidden, or that the build cannot work. It's just a weaker synergy.

2) There are other ways to get defensive roll, you just don't know them. Take a look at Whirling Dervish 8, for example.

Monk/SD/Divine Seeker is a typical way I see the class used. Druid/SD/Divine Seeker was a friend of mine on DB. Bard/SD/Divine Seeker was Ivan's Drow. Fighter or Bard/GFK/BG/DS is another way I see this happening.

But yeah...

[Blackman D]

Ya, some divine spell progression would be a boon. Lets be careful about how or what we take off any skill requirements. A minor amount off at the most.

right, tho in terms of skill points if we are talking about those that the PrC is targeted for, divine casters, then all the prereqs minus lore will likely be cross class meaning they will need to wait till lvl 7 to get 5 ranks and that is about the level most PrCs can first be taken

its currently 26 total skill points as a rereq, cutting off 8 isnt that bad i dont think

or can raise the lore up a bit if its the total thats bugging you, 5 ranks for all would make it 20 total and at least lore is a class skill for like everyone

[Storm Munin]

I have had four divine seekers on this server.
Neither need a change in the class, the class is not broken, it is WAD.


Sure, we can change it, but why?


I would rather have the builders and testers time spent on adding Divine Agent as a selectable class than pimping a perfectly fine class such as Divine Seeker.

YMMV

PS:
Currently amusing myself with leveling a CHA maxed cleric/bg/divine seeker.
Looking gooood.

Why take any class outside of roleplay at all?
Personal choice or not I usually do it the other way around, the toon concept provide the classes for the mechanics.

[thids]

The only thing I would add to Divine Seeker is divine casting progression. With the lack of classes like Shadowbane Stalker and Black Flame Zealot being one of the worst (if not THE worst) classes around, I'd say that the server lacks proper options for divine sneaks.