Playing your sheet; Level?

[PaulImposteur]

TLDR at the bottom of the post.

Keep this civil, my role-playing friends.

I created this topic as I'm curious to see the opinions of the community. This topic is not about xp gains/losses, and instead focuses on the idea of connecting game-play to role-play.

The rule of this server is to play your character sheet; a fair and simple rule, that adds complexity in a number of ways. I do not personally see this as a restriction but instead, as an inspiration to gain feats off of, or use attributes to reflect.

A simple system that stems from of course: Dungeons & Dragons itself. Because if you don't have a 30 ft rope, the DM will say "No, you can't climb up Greg, check your character sheet... Geeze."

However, Role-play also in almost all cases and usually for the better (Though sometimes for the worst) is free form. Allowing the players to write and think of interesting ways to move a story forward and develop characters. Everyone enjoys this, especially a DM running a campaign loves creative people coming up with crazy, silly, and down-right comedic resolutions to a problem.

Players on the table-top however do not feel the competitive atmosphere many have in game. This is for a good reason- they have a DM to cater to them, to make them feel powerful even if they are a lowly level 5 toon whom should only be swinging a hammer at Kobolds, a good DM will toss in a de-leveled dragon at a time to give the story some more 'umph'. That is why I feel table-top makes us feel we don't need to rush to cap level.

This is the key difference between game and PnP, and most whom have played both would know this distinction. In PnP, your story in the world starts as soon as you walk out of your first tavern with your haughty Rogue friend who pick-pocketed you, because he couldn't be bothered paying 3 coppers for an ale.

In a free form role-play, the desire for max-level is also mitigated as often there is no game-play attached to actually level if you should be a 'powerful' character. You simply would be because you wrote your character to be such.

However this game takes a very awkward side-line to it's table-top father, and the (un)holy free form that is rarely regulated properly. In the case of the game, we play by our character sheet.

Often someone will make a character that has a long history of combat, and shouldn't get mauled to death by a lone bandit. However due to a leveling system (which grants great satisfaction to most, I would argue) this cuts characters at the knees. In order to actually feel as though we are playing a 'powerful' war veteran, we must be comparable to our peers in combat when it comes to environments.

So if the story begins in PnP right outside the door of the tavern, why shouldn't it in game?

Because there is no catering in a world pre-created (a beautiful one still) by our DMs. We may not always have our lovely story-weavers online. Due to this our Veteran Warrior feels a mockery of the vision of whom is hero is. Because he could be a war-hardened general whom can be swatted down by a high-level diplomat with no combat experience.

This creates a huge gap when it comes to vision and the reality of the toon created. I cannot argue this for everyone but, I feel this way often, if I am to create a tough-as-nails warrior.

In the end I find a low level becomes counter-intuitive to a character I would have played, simply because a game-mechanic suggests that he never could be experienced until I've accrued enough time of grinding/quest-running/Rping for xp. The RP of course should be the fruit-punch we all want the xp from of course.

However, when you try to RP a low level 'BMF' as Samuel L Jackson would emboss onto his light-saber, he will at times be treated as a joke. Perhaps not always, and some RPers will respect your character regardless of level, because they don't see level as a real barrier. However there will be many that will see this as 'play by your sheet', and ignore what a character whom is written to be a commanding veteran as a over-bearing adventuring novice; simply because their level says they are.

TLDR: Do you feel your level creates a barrier for your role-playability on characters?

Do you think you can't play "True" to your character until his sheet matches your vision of whom they should be?

(Keep it civil; once again, this is not about level gains/xp. It is a discussion about your opinions on role-play and how it functions in a game-system such as NWN2)

[Shad]

I like how DMogorgon described it about levels in his topic.
http://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=26028
With that description in mind and with the formula changed from -10 to /2 starting from 20 lvl, that would be ok.

[grunts]

Epic levels ruin D&D, almost no pnp DM does epic campaigns because they are silly and immersion breaking. In 10 levels you go from a believable hero to an unstoppable army slaying avatar. Yet every NWN2 RP server has epic levels. Why?

As far as colorful backgrounds go, not being far fetched helps a ton. Saying you were a commander of legions as a level 1 fighter is expecting far too much from your fellow RP'ers. Usually you are judged based on in game and forum actions, not how legendary your background was. Sometimes this can be mistaken for metagaming someones level but it's more of side effect for having an unknown character.

Now if you RCR into a commander of legions type character, it's much more believable. That said, no one is going to treat you like one until they actually see or hear of you commanding in some form or another, in game.

[PJtheFey]

The simple answer is that level one characters are supposed to be naive and inexperienced, and if you create a hardened veteran at level one you aren't playing the role play aspect of the game properly. The server rules state that you play your stats, and as such if you are new to the server you have to play an inexperienced adventurer.

RCR is the only way around this. If you want to grind up to level 30 and just sit in the background for social situations you can then sacrifice your character to the recycling gods and come into play with a more advanced character to suit the background of a character that already has some life experience under its belt.

The thing that I find awkward is determining how to justify a change in character personality in a very short time if you have leveled quickly. In my case my character went from level 1 to 16 in just over a week. So transforming the personality from one that is completely inexperienced to one that had been around a bit is a bit awkward in such a short time.

With all this said I think the server does try to soften this transition by giving people low level zombies to fight in the single digits rather than say... Rats. Fighting undead and dying is a bit more impressive IC than getting bitten by a rodent.

[Mac]

The simple answer is that level one characters are supposed to be naive and inexperienced, and if you create a hardened veteran at level one you aren't playing the role play aspect of the game properly. The server rules state that you play your stats, and as such if you are new to the server you have to play an inexperienced adventurer.

RCR is the only way around this. If you want to grind up to level 30 and just sit in the background for social situations you can then sacrifice your character to the recycling gods and come into play with a more advanced character to suit the background of a character that already has some life experience under its belt.

Well said, I agree.

[Steve]

To add to an already interesting conversation:

I take great effort to translate actual Feats on my Toon's Character Sheet into aspects of that Toon's character, abilities, knowledge. As well, Ability scores...which is why I'm notorious for choosing a less efficient Build so that I can have all above average Abilities, for example (just ask Aelcar and M3nt...they think I'm crazy for it, but so what).

I'd also like to add this, which is my past DM thoughts on how to relate our Epic Characters (cause how the puck does a Halfing have 28 STR?!?): the initial stats, the Abilities your build has at Level 1, are the defining aspects of your Character. Thus, starting with 18 in an Ability, like INT, means your Toon really is near genius. STR of 18, and you have a near bodybuilder. The increases to Abilities, over the leveling progression, I consider refinement of that Ability. As example, going from 18 STR to 28 STR does not translate as growing gigantic muscles, instead, it translates—for role-play purposes—to be a refinement, a training of your Toon's strength, such that what is naturally there from the start (Level 1) is better used.

[PaulImposteur]

An excellent out-look on attributes at their higher peaks Steve. I very much think that's an awesome perspective to take on it. Rather than thinking every Barbarian is Hercules.

Pertaining to the discussion, it makes sense to RCR to establish that 'war-veteran', it's not even an argument that, that is the best case scenario. However, the game allows for contradictions to this idea.

One lending to the contradiction is the background feat 'Militia', if I remember correctly, that is the name. I currently do not have the game installed to check, as I am doing a clean install of my OS system.

But, if I remembered correctly this seems to imply that some persons could very much be a level 1 veteran. Although on the other end of the spectrum you can be a 'Farmer'. While these backgrounds in reality make little difference to the stats of the character, they allow for two very different takes on the same level 1 character when it comes to role-play.

In regards to the leveling comment; I completely agree that leveling to fast and introducing personality changes to reflect the strength gained can be a very estranging process. It's really awkward and tedious when you shoot through the first 15 levels in a week, going from farm-boy to Jedi-Master.

It's a problem I have encountered (I'm sure most of us have) but, never found a way to address. Which has led me to some odd habits. At times I'll find myself leveling a toon to 12-20 just to avoid this persona change. Especially when I made more militant characters they were extremely hollow and didn't group often to avoid looking silly to the masses.

Which to the above statement of 'looking silly to the masses', is precisely why I was curious on everyone's opinion. As I do sometimes find it silly myself, to see a level 1 veteran of war. But, I am just as guilty of making such toons, I just try to hide them until I level up.

[Ithilan]

I dont necesarilly RP a character differently according to experience. Of course I am influenced by the sheer abbility of my character, but I dont go from a lowly farmhand to an epic hero over the course of a few levels.

The initial concept of the character dictates how I usually meet the world and even if I can not slay a dragon at level 1, there is a reason said character began an adventuring life. Of course this stance might change dependant on the characters development, but that is to me a very RP central factor, not something that is dictated by my changing character sheet.

The way I see it, you can easilly make a veteran from level one, so long as you have the imagination to play it and the character concept is thoroughly made, of course you have to back words up with action usually, but what incitament would a level 1 war veteran have to brawl with someone in the new land they have arrived in, only to lose face and fall short of his boasting?

Knowing that I might step on someone's toe's, im still going to say a lot of character concepts are initially way to centered on themselves, rather than their soroundings and the people they meet. After "initiation" into the current gallery of characters this changes quite a bit in most cases.

One thing I found to be rather helpful and fun is not percieving a character's classes as a proffesion necesarilly. Of course if you're a weapons master, fighter I assume that is reflected in your characters life quite heavilly, but what functions does your character have for society? Being a dragon slaying warrior of reknown had to start somewhere and the common populace have a whole different daily span than the adventuring kind, integrating that in a character concept and giving them common proffesions and functions can add a lot of spice to how you initially percieve and interact with the world around you.

[DM Bloodlust]

Due to this our Veteran Warrior feels a mockery of the vision of whom is hero is. Because he could be a war-hardened general whom can be swatted down by a high-level diplomat with no combat experience.

This creates a huge gap when it comes to vision and the reality of the toon created. I cannot argue this for everyone but, I feel this way often, if I am to create a tough-as-nails warrior.

On a personal note, I embrace this. Like Grunts mention on levels having an immersion breaking effect, so too do I view PCs looking at themselves as big heroes.

My perspective on the matter is that PCs are all mortals. I don't even view PCs as heroes. A PC can rise to a challenge and become well-known for it, overcome great odds and be a hero for a time (or villain in theory, but I haven't met a single PC with that aim that isn't cartoon evil), but quickly fades back into the background after that. PCs just aren't versions of superman to me, indeed, I value PCs as highly as I do a veteran orc warrior NPC.

Perhaps this shows through during my events as well, where I scale the encounters to be somewhat challenging no matter whom the PCs are. I even make NPCs that are far stronger than PCs, both to serve story purposes but also to display an amount of power that PCs just can't achieve and indeed should show respect of if not outright fear. That can be both combat power or political power. I try to do this with realism in mind, so that human NPCs are more or less around a PCs power, while a Pit Fiend Lord is a challenge you typically won't walk away from alive. If I ever spawn a dragon, it will be terryfing. I never understood why such beasts wouldn't just attack you from range with inpunity, or how just one swipe of it's claw wouldn't slice you in two even if you're a dwarven defender. When I spawn one, it will do just that.

This view has a background to it too, as I've come to learn that as a DM I can't rely on any single player. If I make out a player to be special, leading a force, becoming the victim or recipient of something that makes them special, finds an artifact of great power etc., it never pans out. The player might take breaks from the game, not consistently be part of the events (even when they set the time/date) or just in general not displaying much of a hero/villain in their RP. Quite often they won't even act on them being in the spotlight. I've had numerous plot items sit on characters that refuse to spread the information (which is fine) but then not even use it for themselves in any way (which is not fine). Giving a character a vital role is generally a dead end for story purposes in my experience so far, and as such I even more so than usual view people as ants on an anthill all struggling for those 15 seconds of fame.

Plus, it fits into immersion for me at least. The Sword Coast is quite large, and having hundreds of demi-gods walking around in a concentrated area just wouldn't make sense IMO

[DM Pun Pun]

The simple answer is that level one characters are supposed to be naive and inexperienced, and if you create a hardened veteran at level one you aren't playing the role play aspect of the game properly. The server rules state that you play your stats, and as such if you are new to the server you have to play an inexperienced adventurer.

Level 1s are supposed to be naive and inexperienced. However, they tend to become sagely and seasoned within a week or two, when in a DnD campaign, it can take months and years(sometimes with fast-forwarded down time). Most new level 1s on this server jump to level 6 in about 4-6 hours.

[Aelcar]

To add to an already interesting conversation:

I take great effort to translate actual Feats on my Toon's Character Sheet into aspects of that Toon's character, abilities, knowledge. As well, Ability scores...which is why I'm notorious for choosing a less efficient Build so that I can have all above average Abilities, for example (just ask Aelcar and M3nt...they think I'm crazy for it, but so what).

You misunderstand me, my friend: I don't think you're crazy. I do it myself.

None of my builds is fully optimized, and sometimes choices are flat out bad in the name of flavor.

That does not, however, change the fact I play overall strong characters. The kind of characters destroying armies.

If you want to challenge them, bring stronger armies.

The gibberlings from the cave don't interest my characters, and hundreds of them would still get utterly destroyed. As it should be, for such is how I envision my characters: outstanding individuals born for challenges Jorn the Farmer can't face.

That's D&D for me.

Whoever wants to play the commoner: feel free to do so, but don't bother me.

[Mac]

(or villain in theory, but I haven't met a single PC with that aim that isn't cartoon evil)

Hey

Giving a character a vital role is generally a dead end for story purposes in my experience so far, and as such I even more so than usual view people as ants on an anthill all struggling for those 15 seconds of fame.

That is about the long and the short of it...

We need to remember that we are part of a ongoing world. One that will eat you up and spit you out. No matter your level or the power you hold. There is always someone or something bigger and more bad ass than you are. If a pc forgets that its up to the DM to remind them. We are all very much mortal and its the hard, long fought and difficult struggles that make for great characters. The knight that slays a thousand dragons with his farts, Is not interesting. The one that fought adversity, Pain and failure. The knight that rose up from a squire to become a great hero and one day slay that dragon. Now that's a great character! The best PCs start at level 1 and develop there RP slowly. they were once ducklings and they become sharks. You meet and lose friends, Win and lose battles, Simply put! Failure is the condiment which gives success its flavor.

If we forget that we only hurt ourselves......

[Steve]

We are all very much mortal and .....

That may be true for us Players, but...rather not true for our PCs. PCs very rarely die, and if they do, they are resurrected without worry.

The only way PCs die on BGTSCC is if a Player chooses to sacrifice or retire the PC. So though at times our Character Sheet reads -10 Hit Points, we only have to "play" dead with our Toons.

[Mac]

PCs very rarely die, and if they do, they are resurrected without worry.

Now we may be getting in to personal preference of play styles, These are different for everyone. Speaking for myself, My character is always in threat of PERMA-death. That is a large part of the fun for me.

Even if you choose not to subject your character to the risk of death. There is always the risk of failing. To fail might mean a serious setback in your characters goals. It might also mean the loss of something important to the character. There homeland, Family or honor, To name a few.

[DM Pun Pun]

As it should be, for such is how I envision my characters: outstanding individuals born for challenges Jorn the Farmer can't face.

Clearly you underestimate Jorn's power. Its not that Jorn can't face certain challenges, they are just not worth his effort.