Balance??

[Face]

In a other post we talked about dread commando and i was told that the +4 hide -ms - tumble was to over powerd for a 5 level class.

So what about the spells you get at low level that give 10-10 spot listen and the 20 listen one....How can you say 4 hide and ms is op for a 5 level class when you can get them spotting spells so super easy?

PS i wil say this in advance - Im NOT trolling i realy want to know what the thought behind this is.

[Maecius]

I fear the "Hide/Move Silently" vs. "Spot/Listen" arms race is something that's been going on for years and years, and will likely never go away.

When the server first started there was a lot of really powerful stealth gear for sale (+6 Hide/MS, and so on) at the Mask store. The store's items were dropped down in the name of balance pretty quickly (not too long after we closed beta), and for a while "Hide/Move Silently" gear became almost impossible to find.

I think we've balanced it a little more towards a middle ground since, although a dedicated spotter will always be able to spot a dedicated stealther under current conditions (if the spotter decides to cast amplify and clairaudience/clairvoyance, both of which are short term buffs, but well spent when you want to ensure your privacy).

Ultimately, though, it's an issue that generates a lot of emotions on both sides of the argument, and it's probably one of the most challenging things to balance for on the QC side of the fence. Because in the end, one side's going to be unhappy if the other side is made more powerful in any way.

[Face]

Thanks for the reply though it doesnt anser my question - Why is dread commando seen as over powerd?

[mrm3ntalist]

Thanks for the reply though it doesnt anser my question - Why is dread commando seen as over powerd?

The Dread Commando is not implemented not because it is overpowered. Even if something is considered overpowered it can very easily be changed. It hasn't been implemented for the same reason that the other 1504 available classes and kits are not implemented - http://dndtools.pw/classes/

There is no reason for it AND there are other classes that are considered higher priority.

If you want the Dread Commando PRC, tell us why other than the "I want the +XHide,MS bonus"

As far as the Detect/Sneak debate, there are some issues - for me - especialy with the spells you mentioned. It has been recently discussed and there are still discussions going on

[Face]

Cous dread commando gives high bab dash improved flanking and later on sup initiative pretty mutch evry thing that helps a rogue hit stuff it also helps going into GFK with a rouge.

[chad878262]

You will get more discussion if you present some type of lore supporting what Dread Commando brings to the server. Rogue's have a pretty decent number of PRC's they synergize with in relation to other classes so there is definitely priority given to getting PRC's that bring additional RP options to the server. For example Techsmith of Gond, Master Alchemist, Monk of the Long Death, etc.

This is not to say Dread Commando or any other PRC shouldn't be considered, but it would help to provide some detail indicating where it provides a different flavor over existing PRC's. so far as what you list hear it appears Bodyguard gives similar benefit in regards to high BAB and increases movement by 10% (dash feat only gives 5%). You could do something with Bodyguard and Whirling Dervish to get both and have 15% increased movement. (though WD is medium BAB).

You can still hit things plenty even with all medium BAB stealth classes. The issue is until you get HiPS you are EXTREMELY vulnerable and squishy.

[Aelcar]

This is not to say Dread Commando or any other PRC shouldn't be considered, but it would help to provide some detail indicating where it provides a different flavor over existing PRC's.

It's more powerful than what we currently have.

It has d8 HP, High BAB and 6 + INT skill points and all the right skills as class ones (unlike Bodyguard, which also has 4 + INT), 3d6 SA progression for 5 levels (more than Bodyguard and WD, for instance), you get dash and +4/+4 Hide/MS on top of it.

Requirements are Dodge and Mobility, just like Whirling Dervish and Shadowdancer.

The reason why I would not implement this class, is that basically, whoever doesn't take it is inferior. "Must have" classes are usually a bad idea. Face, however, treats my opinion as if it counted as law...

Flattering, but far from true.

so far as what you list hear it appears Bodyguard gives similar benefit in regards to high BAB and increases movement by 10% (dash feat only gives 5%). You could do something with Bodyguard and Whirling Dervish to get both and have 15% increased movement. (though WD is medium BAB).

With Bodyguard 3/Whirling Dervish 4 (+1 AB) you'd get +3/+3 from Skill Focus feats and close BAB as well as Dash, but less skills, less Hide/MS bonus and most importantly, less SA progression (3d6 over 6 levels instead of 5). This, for the same feats as requirements.

Moreover, you'd have used 2/4 classes already.

You can still hit things plenty even with all medium BAB stealth classes. The issue is until you get HiPS you are EXTREMELY vulnerable and squishy.

QFT

[Face]

If its more powerful then the other classes thats fine when your playing a rogue you dont realy have 'power build' in mind...

Like if you realy want to power build you wil take some other class then rogue and some of the rogue prc's exluding assassin obviusly.

[Aelcar]

If its more powerful then the other classes thats fine when your playing a rogue you dont realy have 'power build' in mind...

Like if you realy want to power build you wil take some other class then rogue and some of the rogue prc's exluding assassin obviusly.

Yes, I don't dispute that.

I just don't like to introduce "must have" classes, in principle.

Something slightly better might be ok, but a class clearly superior to everything else we have is wrong in principle.

It would then be better to discuss how to improve what we already have first.

[mrieder79]

One possibility for you is to modify the class so it is weaker and submit it to the QC team for consideration. If you do all the scripting work yourself, that significantly reduces the load on developers. Then you can work with QC to bring the class down to a power level that is seen as acceptable for the server.

I'm not on staff, but I would imagine that this would increase your odds of having the class added. If it were nerfed down to medium BAB and d6 hp, for example, maybe it wouldn't be considered OP. Maybe if the +4 H/MS were dropped to +2 or maybe it could get the stealthy feat for free instead of the raw +4 H/MS bonus.

Hope this helps.

[Face]

Maybe just drop the hide and ms buff cous im getting the feeling that is seen as the 'op' part or would it still be seen as to strong then?

[mrieder79]

That would probably help. Again, I'm not on staff so I'm just guessing.

[chad878262]

I am thinking getting 3d6 SA w/ High BAB for 5 levels is too much. Maybe you could get away with 2d6. For comparison 3d6 SA in 5 levels is the same as you would get for taking 5 levels of Rogue or Assassin, while you are also getting high BAB.

[Ivan38Rus]

That would probably help. Again, I'm not on staff so I'm just guessing.

There's no difference whether you're on staff or not, if your idea is good it is gonna be taken into account

In general, people, please, stop belittiling yourself, if your name is not coloured differently, it doesn't mean you don't have something worthy to contribute.

[mrieder79]

I just didn't want the OP thinking that I had some special insight and was guaranteeing that if he modifid the class it would be included.