I suggest lowering epic feat statistic requirements

[R0ninknight]

One thing I love about this server is the 'roleplay your character sheet' rule. I also love natural, realistic, three-dimensional characters- of which I have seen many here in even just the short time I've had to interact with this world. These two philosophical points lead me to this problem and proposal:
Lower the stat requirements for any feat requiring 21-25 in a stat to 18-20.
Why, you might ask?
Let's use Epic Divine Might for an example. I"ve spent -hours- on NWNDB pouring over builds and variations; different ways to reach EDM. I've learned something from this:
An EDM character has to be stronger than an Olympic bodybuilder yet somehow also frail and sickly (fantasy steroids with nasty side effects, maybe?), clumsy, learning disabled, foolish, and yet able to give a roaring history-making-level speech so long as someone far smarter wrote the speech out first and didn't use too many difficult words in it and the character shows enough good sense to follow the script but I wouldn't start placing any bets.

So!

- These feats promote and often even -require- min-maxing.

- Min-maxing in an overwhelming majority of cases creates very unrealistic and very-difficult-to-believe characters.

- So its play in a really stupid way or come up with a lot of really out-there reasons for the stat spread or break the character sheet rule or be extremely flexible in one's interpretations of what the ability score numbers mean. None of these seem like a winning scenario to me.

OR!

- We can just lower the ability score requirements for lots of epic feats so that natural, well-rounded, realistic characters can actually achieve them before level 30.
- Min-maxing should be reserved for RP reasons more than mechanical ones and it should not be a common occurrence among the adventuring populace who are themselves supposed to be natural, believable people (for the most part). Having lots of strength but negative-modifier constitution is a plot hook in a backstory and should be A Very Rare Thing (tm).
- Very high stats should be RP'd too, of course, and so 'forcing these stats just to get this feat so that your build doesn't suck' meaning 'clichés abound because the mechanics force them' is counterproductive to an RP-based environment. Note the ridiculous EDM character above.

To be clear, I'm not necessarily saying 'make these feats easier to get' but rather proposing people brainstorm other requirements for them so that stat spreads can be part of RP rather than so forced and metagame like they are now.

[Karond]

I like to think that the feats promote sacrifice. Their power is often great, and so you need to give up things to aquire them or they become even more of a no brainer choice.

That said, some epic feats could certainly use an easier requirement, mostly because their mechanical power isn't really in line with the sacrifice and thus are rarely picked. These are Thundering Rage, Epic Rage, Planar Turning, Blinding Speed, Magical Beast Wildshape, Epic deflection and maybe Self Concealment, though a bit of care needs to be done with that last feat.

However, feats like Epic damage reduction, Epic regeneration, Epic Divine Might, Dragon Shape or Epic Dodge certainly don't need a lower requirement. With the exception of regeneration, all of these feats are already really popular precisely because their power is so much greater than the other epic feats listed above.

[Ivan38Rus]

Agreed with Karond

[freekender]

I like to think that the feats promote sacrifice. Their power is often great, and so you need to give up things to aquire them or they become even more of a no brainer choice.

That said, some epic feats could certainly use an easier requirement, mostly because their mechanical power isn't really in line with the sacrifice and thus are rarely picked. These are Thundering Rage, Epic Rage, Planar Turning, Blinding Speed, Magical Beast Wildshape, Epic deflection and maybe Self Concealment, though a bit of care needs to be done with that last feat.

However, feats like Epic damage reduction, Epic regeneration, Epic Divine Might, Dragon Shape or Epic Dodge certainly don't need a lower requirement. With the exception of regeneration, all of these feats are already really popular precisely because their power is so much greater than the other epic feats listed above.

Absolutely agree.

About lowering the stats requirements, I do not agree. It could be some specific and particular one that in this very moment I don't know about but, in general, for me the requirements are OK as they are. Even the ones which have been changed on the server (like, for example, dex19 for SD). If the server was one which focus on action/fighting I could think different, but it is an RP one. And this is the most populated server, that should have a reason; I think that the excellent RP plus the changes to lower overpowered mechanics and get up the underpowered ones is the key.

[matelener]

Sky high requirements are, in some cases, exactly promoting min-maxing. And lowering them could help the middle class.

An example: compare a 20 STR / 20 CON barbarian earth genasi with a 16 STR / 16 CON barbarian human. The first one will easily get both 3 x EDR feats and Epic Rage, the second one won't even get the epic rage.

[Thorsson]

Sky high requirements are, in some cases, exactly promoting min-maxing. And lowering them could help the middle class.

An example: compare a 20 STR / 20 CON barbarian earth genasi with a 16 STR / 16 CON barbarian human. The first one will easily get both 3 x EDR feats and Epic Rage, the second one won't even get the epic rage.

Ahem, the Genasi only gets +2 in Str and Con, not +4. He also has ECL1, loses 2 Wis & Cha, and loses out on the Quick to Master and Skilled Feats.

If you choose to max two stats at startup then you will have no points to use on anything else. To my mind that is enough of a punishment if you play your character sheet (which is the avowed policy of this server).

[matelener]

Sky high requirements are, in some cases, exactly promoting min-maxing. And lowering them could help the middle class.

An example: compare a 20 STR / 20 CON barbarian earth genasi with a 16 STR / 16 CON barbarian human. The first one will easily get both 3 x EDR feats and Epic Rage, the second one won't even get the epic rage.

Ahem, the Genasi only gets +2 in Str and Con, not +4. He also has ECL1, loses 2 Wis & Cha, and loses out on the Quick to Master and Skilled Feats.

If you choose to max two stats at startup then you will have no points to use on anything else. To my mind that is enough of a punishment if you play your character sheet (which is the avowed policy of this server).

I was just presenting an example with both min-maxed ability score spread and race versus a standard uthgardt human barbarian without any negative mod (16/12/16/12/10/10). 6 Wis and 6 cha are mechanically irrelevant for a barbarian (that's the point of min-maxing)

If this was a fighter the difference would be miniscule, however in a case of a class that has feats with very high ability requirements the power gap between min-maxers and average chars becomes huge.

[PaulImposteur]

While I understand the ideal is meant to help people that are more RP oriented,
people that do min-max (Such as myself) would only gain more advantages.

Now because I am someone that min-maxes and tries to power-build (I'm terrible at it)
I will say that my character's stats although played correctly, have never made my characters feel non-sensible or 'bad'. These character's that are build driven allow for creativity in the reverse direction.

For example;
A non-powerbuilder decides they want their character to be a diplomat from Calimshan whom uses maces. They make a build for that.

A powerbuilder decides they want to make a crazy assassin. They develop a backstory and persona for that.

In the end, if you look these are the exact same thing. The work is the same, the end result only ends up being mechanically and how different the sheet is. But if this was the same role-player, the quality would be the same for each character. (Given they liked both the same)

Also keep in mind having this stat range of 12, 10, and 8 are not the drastic differences that people tend to think. Someone whom acts completely normal can have an intelligence of 8. This does not equate to them being illiterate or forcing them to animal speak, you'd need much lower intelligence for that.

What's my point in the end?
Making RP builds is great, and a lot of fun. However if you are concerned that your RP build is going to be weak, look to outside sources such as The Character Builder forums to improve them.

There is a stigma that you cannot RP if you enjoy making mechanically feasible characters. That stigma has to end, because I can guarantee many great RPers had just as good character builds.

Making requirements lower for feats will empower the already strong, further leaving behind less optimized builds. This will always be the case, and if people wish to have mechanically strong builds, they have to design their character that way. Because Conan wasn't swinging a great sword with a stat of 10 Strength, I'm sure he had 16+.

Once again, having a good build doesn't mean the RP will be bad. You should be trying to achieve both play-styles to have the maximum amount of fun, if you feel you don't enjoy having mechanical disadvantage.

[R0ninknight]

There has to be better requirements than high stats people can come up with as a sacrifice. I think I made a pretty good case and I'm not reading anything terribly helpful so far. I'll take another look at specific feats to try to come up with sacrifices other than ridiculous statistic scores as examples.
I don't want 'easier' I want 'different'. It should be very difficult to get those feats, I agree, but a ridiculous stat spread that forces RP into a box shouldn't be it. Its counterproductive. I also agree that if we're going to make these feats more organic then we might as well make the less-chosen epic feats balanced with the often-chosen ones while we're at it.
Many organic builds I've seen won't qualify for much in the way of epic feats at all- totally metagame-centric design philosophy. A novelist wouldn't design it that way (I can speak to that).
It shouldn't have to be a choice between min-maxing-uberness and roleplaying a believable character while simultaneously roleplaying the character sheet. I can't check the scores of other characters, only ask players and hope for honesty if I felt like it, of course but a negative score is part of a backstory I'd say- it should be explained or at least explainable and the same goes for any score of 16-17+.
The epic feats are antagonists to RP in their current form. I'm not talking about how difficult they are to get at all- I'm talking about in what -way- they are difficult.
Does anyone have any ideas on a different list of requirements that could justify any of the feats' power besides 'be really weird'? A min-maxed character should be a Very Rare Thing(tm) because natural selection just doesn't produce that effect very often at all- that's why so few RL humans are like that.... or gorillas... or dolphins.... Instead their weaknesses are covered before their strengths are enhanced.
I'll see if I can be more specific and brainstorm what I mean on my own a bit.

[Thorsson]

I think I made a pretty good case...

I guess that not everyone agrees with you.

The fact that one novelist might do it differently does not mean that every novelist would see it the same way (a clear logical fallacy).

The main problem with your argument is that you want to move further and further away from D&D and be something else. I'm never going to agree with that; once you cross that line, where do you stop? Then we're not playing D&D and might as well play any random MMORPG.

[Steve]

You all really shouldn't worry about you Toon having "role-play" Skills, Abilities or Feat. They are almost never called upon on Events, and you are not "allowed" to use them in CvC situations (without a DM present, ofc).

Min/maxing is simply the way to go, and no one is rewarded by going the other way!

[Blackman D]

it should also probably be noted that a lot of feats have had the requirement reduced, however the current pattern is that only 2 pts are taken off to make them a -bit- easier to take, not a lot

tho most of the feats this was done with are ones that took 27 or more pts to get, i think a few 25s were took down to 23 but i cant remember

[DM Narshe]

Not saying that this would happen, but out of curiousity as to reactions:

A)

Hidden: show

Reduce the requirements of

However, feats like Epic damage reduction, Epic regeneration, Epic Divine Might, Dragon Shape or Epic Dodge

but also reduce their effectiveness.

B)

Hidden: show

Keep the original feats as is but add a "lesser" version with reduced pre-reqs and effectiveness

[Calodan]

B is preferred on my account. Correct me if I am wrong but Epic Regen and Epic DR are already reduced here to 21 Con and also Regen is lesser than the original as well at only 6 per round instead of 9.

[R0ninknight]

I think DM Narshe is on the right track. I'd say A or B depending the specific feat at hand rather than all A or all B. I haven't had the time today but I plan on looking into them individually more. Matelender, I think, is understanding me here as well.
I also changed things for tabletop constantly- it was still DnD; it was just better for us than what WotC did. Variant rules are all over the place in the books, too, and often encouraged by the authors to fit 'style of play': in this case, an RP-focused PW instead of powerbuild action type of PW. I very strongly suspect that the single player game, and thus these feats, were designed for 'dice rollers rather than role players' if you'd heard the expression before. In other words, I think NWN2 developers put mechanics over RP because the focus was the single player modes anyway.
If you have to min-max to compete then you just boxed in creativity a heck of a lot. Other feats, conditions, or whatnot people can think of as balanced and justified 'payment' for the feats has to be preferable than 'you have to be really tough but suck at everything else' sorts of principles. That is not only a mechanical sacrifice but a creative one as well- again, counterproductive to the primary goals here from everything I've read.
So far everyone has been talking about things from a very mechanically-minded way as if RP was an afterthought- I know this is not intentional and none of you consider RP an afterthought but its coming off that way. I in no way want 'this should be easier to get' but rather 'this should cost something else that is mechanically balanced but not so creatively constraining'. In a vacuum, mechanically, the requirements are balanced and fine; for realistic RP and creating unique yet viable characters over and over again they just plain suck.
The current state of epic feats I consider a lose-lose choice; I just sigh in resignation and take the lesser loss once I spend a long time figuring out which is the lesser loss- power or character. It even takes away a lot of the satisfaction of gaining the feats and using them because I knew I had to take a bad deal. To put it another way: I'd much rather pay lots of money for a fancy car than somehow give up part of my personality for it instead.
I 'put my money where my mouth is', too, on this server: I specifically gave up any hope of gaining EDM specifically in order to roll up a more organic, believable, well-rounded character that makes sense on this PW; keeping with the spirit of the rules. I like the spirit of that rule.
I don't care if whatever changes are suggested and/or implemented still deny my main access to that; that's fine. Every character that already has it should be grandfathered, too; that's fine. What I don't like is the faces and responses of the people I've been showing this to when they look at these requirements and then look at the stat system again (they always look a second time at what stat scores mean after looking at feats)- its not a good expression. It always saps enthusiasm- and honestly it sapped mine at first, too. Yes, I've been trying to recruit for DnD, NWN2, and this PW specifically with limited success so far. My motivation is to increase this success rate. My other goal is to open up creativity and close the gap between powerbuild and rp build until, hopefully, the distinctions between the two are negligible.
Also, I know I can be a bit spirited about stuff.... I want to make clear that I respect all of you and your positions; I really do. Please understand that I want my efforts to help the PW and expand its player base to be easier. This is one of the first meaningful ways I can think of to do that.