Disguise

[ShineDown]

Haven't taken a long look at the past few days of postings to see the reactions.

On the most recent update came disguise skill and the skill to see through such.

With all due respect to those hardworking designers and testers out there, I ask this system be nulled and forgotten. It will cause more headaches than lend rp to a server already focused on builds rather than roleplay (not rollplay). Nothing good can come of the implementation.

Disguise is something few characters take care in but those that do, do well in doing so because they go the extra mile.

DMs will, even if #'s are correct, be required for any real info that is pertinent during a rp encounter, the mechanics of the new skill having as little effect as a DM overlooking the situation.

The playerbase cannot be entrusted with power to decide if a disguise is effective or not. Indeed, if anything I argue that without a change of clothes, a change of accent made ic, that no amount of disguise 'skill' (if one can even refer to it so in this setting) can be remotely useful.

Merely saying something exists does not make it true and that is exactly what this is in this case. A player can rename himself 'ahuehue' and call it, wandering so for the night. That shouldn't be allowed.

Disguise should not be changed, it will cause more headaches than not. If anything it is the lack of rp here that requires such, not the necessity.

[seawied]

I tend to agree. There are a few situations which the disguise system we had a preview of would appeal to me, but the massive drawbacks it will inevitably create will not be worth it.

The current system of disguise we had up through 2015 had its flaws, but it worked ok.

[Steve]

I am surprised this topic is not getting more traction. Maybe because most of us are in the dark when it comes to how exactly the new Disguise system is supposed to work, and why it was made to work as such (at least, answering the question of why the current system was NOT working).

And of course, since I was the one that wrote up the current provisional rules for Disguise...I guess you could say I have a dog in this race.

From what little I have been able to gleam from quick post-temporary-update threads—now quiet since the update was removed for further testing and bug fixing—it seems that the new system would undermine this aspect of the old system:

Creating a pattern of behavior in your Disguise (persona) will generate a well-protected and difficult to penetrate veil, under which a true identity can remain hidden, until your Player Character slips—either intentionally or unintentionally—to reveal themselves to another.

Mechanics now seem to replace common sense, about "being in disguise." I would like to make 2 points.

#1: Players able to "write" new names over their PCs. Names over PCs is totally OOC. By being able to rewrite them, it establishes a new paradigm about what "truth" is inherent in this OOC device. Why is the new system concerned with actually disguising and OOC aspect of the game? To me, it does not make sense, and furthermore, seems that it gives Players an immediate and likely ability to be arse hats at best, and at worst, just dishonest toward their community of Players.

#2: The Server runs on a Rule that states "only DMs can require Skill Rolls." Yet here we have a new system that puts skill rolling into a mechanical state to overcome what amounts to good-sportsmanship Role-play. To say it another way: relying on a mechanic for disguise/breaking a disguise puts more power into Players to "ruin" another Players RP, than it does to make for a more enjoyable, gracious role-play experience.

These are my basic main points why I also seriously question the Disguise change. But I need to add another thing, which is a basic problem with BGTSCC that is rarely addressed: General Level-of-PCs incompatibility. D&D was never meant to be played with PCs of such great, disparate range interacting together. A Level 1 and a Level 30 together...not fair, not balanced, not cool.

So by placing a mechanical Disguise system in place, it creates an environment where Level 1 PCs are going to be COMPLETELY ruined in their RP by Level 30s (and we know how many Epics are on BGTSCC...too many imho).

The previous system, clunky as it was, allowed for Disguise to function regardless of mechanics, skill points, and level. If the new system comes back online, it will be a paradigm shift that disturbs more than it supports, role-play.

I hope my points above give the Staff pause, and, consider carefully, whether it is truly needed (no matter how "cool" it actually is that Players can now rename their PCs). Or, seek out a better way to do it, that is actually fair for PCs of all Levels. Thank you.

[crimsonrain15]

I'm going to have to agree with Steve. What before may have been months of RP leading up to the reveal of one's identity, will now fast track to a quick dice roll where the epic character will trump the little guy every time. Of course, if the person waits to use a disguise until he too is lv30, then he misses out on the build up and rp to that point just because he doesn't want the epic people to ruin his fun as well. The system itself sounds neat, but to this point, I've had fun with the temporary rules that people tend to use (I haven't actually used a disguise myself, but RPing with those that do has been fun to this point). I think it will pull back some of the mystery.

As for the names over your head, its completely OOC, and if I didn't know you were "Jack Sparrow" before I met your PC, then I wouldn't know you were "Jack Sparrow" afterwards either unless you told me. I think a little courtesy and OOC good faith and sportsmanship go a long way.

[burbles]

Is it possible, though, to have both - a way for people to be anonymous (an old way to disguise with applying cover) with no rolls involved and actualy disguising as another entity (npc class-type or even other PC) when rolls would count?

[Steve]

Is it possible, though, to have both - a way for people to be anonymous (an old way to disguise with applying cover) with no rolls involved and actualy disguising as another entity (npc class-type or even other PC) when rolls would count?

Well, if you're asking...

Having the ability to Rename your Toon on the fly, without DM assistance, is really awesome. But I personally think it need limits. For example, creating a Disguise contextual menu choice that only gives you the Options for: Male/Female or Male (race) / Female (race). THAT is what everyone would see floating overhead, OOC. This "Name" change would be temporary, always reset with the Server.

But still, from what I assume, Player Name associated with PC name cannot be changed in the NWN2 Engine Player List. So...why do it?!? People will know who you are OOC anyway...which could cause OOC suspicious reactions, which could unfortunately lead to IC suspicisions, and then RP ruining stuff (it happens, from time to time).

Then, combine that with the Provisional Rules of Clothing, Contact and Familiarity. Which, to perceive through the Disguise, one needs DM oversight (though if 2+ Players do follow the provisional rules, they can fairly and generously RP Disguise without a DM present).

In my humble opinion, there are only 2 ways to "play" disguises well: either with sportsmanship between Players, or with DM oversight. I admit, I may not be seeing the "solution" that others on the Staff see, or understand. But until they present their position—hopefully in this thread—one can only wonder how the new system is justified to be put IG.

[burbles]

Beats me

[seawied]

I'm just going to quote what I wrote on the other thread to keep the entire discussion in a single spot. In short, I largely agree with Steve.

I agree completely.

Also, although there are numerous, legitimate complaints about people getting meta-game information from a player's name, the new system where a player can change their name at whim opens up even larger can of worms.

There needs to be a unique identifier of each player constantly.

The new disguise system where you are able to change your name at a whim can open the door for exploitation. Although DMs have come out and said that changing your name to match another player's is not allowed, there are no mechanical ways to prevent this until things happen after the fact.

Also, the new disguise system is poor because of the internal limitations of the NWN2 character creation system. A character's appearance is incredibly limited. Certain faces are much more popular than others. Some races like aasimiar have less than a dozen faces to choose from. I've encountered at least 2 people who have a characters who look almost exactly identical to one of my own characters.

Players do not identify each other based off each other's face.

The old system of disguises worked around this, by stating a disguised character (face covering+unique outfit) could be recognized after the third time encountering them. After the third encounter, using the player's name above their head was fair game. This was not a perfect system, but it worked.

In real life, you recognize people based off of small details that are not limited to their facial appearance: their mannerisms, birthmarks, scars, their gait, their smell, speech patterns, inflection of their voice, microexpressions, etc.

The game does not convey these expressions.

Recognizing a player's name tag helps make up for these lack of identifying signals. Again, not a perfect system in the slightest, but it works.

Now that your character's name can be changed at will, all of these get thrown out the window.

The worst part is, a very well RP'd enigmatic character will ultimately be more recognizable than a very generic and poorly RP'd character.

In short, the new name-changing disguise system does not add to roleplaying, but detracts from it.

[mrm3ntalist]

My questions, regarding how currently disguises are used:
- Where can i tell how good a character is at disguises or how well he rped being in disguise
- How long after interacting with a character in disguise, will the other characters begin to get any hints if they had knowledge who that character really is.

The current system is treated - or at least i treat it - that if someone has an examine with "In disguise" or something similar, as a total stranger and move along. It leaves no chance for the disguise character to be identified, provoding a universal blanket no matter that character tries to interact with others that know him ( know the characters voice, physiology, way he moves etc ). Even more, there are times that the character in disguise does not even ackowledge that other characters treat him as total stranger with comments like "Why cant I ( a total stranger ) be part of your party/guild/adventure etc"

Obviously there are issues with the current system.

Now about the current system. My biggest issue is, that is very easy for someone in disguise to be identified. A skill VS skill is very easy to shutdown, leaving no chance for someone in disguise. A formula needs to be found that no single skill can be used but instead a combination of skills and attributes. In a few words we need a great mathematecian. Where is Valefort when you need him...

The other issue is that with the increase of skills, there are classes that will be at a disadvantage - basically all the 2 +int classes that dont have int as a main attribute.

Other than that, the current system displays its possibilities. If something is problematic it can be shutdown. For example, if players do exploit the name change, that can be shut down.

In conclusion, something more needs to be done with the disguise system, but needs to be done in a way that is fair for all. The new system with more balanced disguised DCs ( not higher DCs but balanced) is a step forward.

[Steve]

Hi M3nt,
I had written a response on my phone and the battery died halfway through...so I hope I can say again what was once so eloquently written!

My questions, regarding how currently disguises are used:
- Where can i tell how good a character is at disguises or how well he rped being in disguise
- How long after interacting with a character in disguise, will the other characters begin to get any hints if they had knowledge who that character really is.

Both these questions can be answered—I would hope—through understanding the current—as in, non-mechanically based—Disguise Rules (provisional) through a lens of good sportsmanship between two or more Players.

Essentially, in good sportsmanship, the current rules allow for ANY PC/Player to be "good" at their Disguise. At least, in the initial meeting or encounter...as long as a "costume" is used, by the PC/Player. So whether or not there is any "Skill" behind the disguise, that is just given to the PC in Disguise (at a default). Now, a weight is put upon the PC/Player to also THINK about encountering other PCs that the disguised PC is familiar with, and to what extent the Disguised PC is trying to "pull a disguise or fast one" on another. Additionally, 2+ Players involved in Disguise RP should be willing to give and take a bit, ESPECIALLY if there is a lot of direct interaction.

One point I'll stress about the current rules is this: in a Disguise, the PC starts to create another persona, one that is recognizable. So, if one day Mendel wears a green robe tries to pass himself off as a Druid from Amn, if he continues that RP Disguise, other PCs may soon start to talk about this "really fugly Druid from Amn in a green robe...did you meet them yet?" However, if Mendel was to try that Disguise out on Nai...he'd probably have a bit of a problem being convincing. Like, probably not at all!!

So ask yourself this: how fun would it be for you, with the New Disguise System, if Mendel tried his "Druid of Amn" on my Monk with 48 natural Skill Spot score...he'd fail to impress, and my monk would probably immediately notice something very "funny" going on, and have every right to "call out" Mendel as being weird (even if he didn't know Mendel, he'd be able to "pierce" the disguise...weird, right?!?).

The current system is treated - or at least i treat it - that if someone has an examine with "In disguise" or something similar, as a total stranger and move along.

Yes, that is YOUR choice. But you could also make a choice to start RPing and adventuring and following this PC, for some time, and making an investigation of this "disguised persona," and maybe over time, your PC would pierce the disguise.

And this is probably the MAIN POINT of the current rules: it requires time and investment on both sides, of the RP, between the PC disguised and any others that interact with them. A mechanical means to "appraise" and pierce a disguise can be done in a split second, thus with the possibility of 1 very skilled PC ruining days/weeks/months of a PC's disguised persona.

A formula needs to be found that no single skill can be used but instead a combination of skills and attributes.

Yes, this would be fair. But first, a DC must be established, correct? That is why, in most all situations I can think of, disguises and disguise RP should be either with DM oversight, or through Players being good sports about the RP.

If something is problematic it can be shutdown. For example, if players do exploit the name change, that can be shut down.

Sure, this is true. But between coming "online" and getting shutdown, a lot of harm could be done. And then, will the solution be a mass RETCON of all RP during that period?!?

something more needs to be done with the disguise system, but needs to be done in a way that is fair for all. The new system with more balanced disguised DCs ( not higher DCs but balanced) is a step forward.

One could choose to just do nothing...that would be a solution! But if the Devs and QC are hellbent to get this system online, I agree in general, something better needs to be done to make it fair for all PCs (level 1 through 30). That is why I proposed the Name Change feature to have fixed choices, like Male or Female XX. It provided anonymity but does not let arse hattery happen. As well, if Disguise is to be made a Skill, then there needs to be a window of opportunity where PCs of Epic Levels are allowed to reassign their Skill Point totals, in order to take advantage of this new feature, without RCRing (something that WASN'T done with Sense Motive and kinda sucked eggs).

Last, if Player-initiated Name Changes are allowed, I also think it is bogus to not allow renaming to be other PCs. If my PC is actually good at disguising himself, and he was an Evil Elf, why couldn't he try and be Mendel for a day, and attempt to slander Mendel through evil activities while exclaiming "I'm Mendel...and I kill you for pleasure!" Obviously, the DC would be astronomical, but hey, there ARE some PCs that have an Epic Charisma that could manage it....

Cause otherwise, the Server is introduced to a "feature," of Disguise, but then Players get a hand tied behind their back in the actual usage of said Feature.

[Young Werther]

If someone is putting on a play in the white mask theater or something being able to change your name would be awesome.

However I think the skill roll system could lead to black and white arbitrary outcomes for piercing a disguise like I think Steve is saying. On the other hand it could stop people from getting in the situation where they automatically assume they can see through a disguise just because they knew someone before hand in other encounters. I'd like to know the thoughts behind why the staff wish to implement such an ambitous feature. Right now I am kind of liking it for the novelty but disliking it because how it could ruin the effort a disguise should take from all players who are engaged in such RP.

[mrm3ntalist]

I understand your reasonings Steve, but there is one thing that i dont.

When you compare the two "systems", you are willing to acknowledge good sportmanship and following the rules with the current system

Essentially, in good sportsmanship, the current rules allow for ANY PC/Player to be "good" at their Disguise. At least, in the initial meeting or encounter...as long as a "costume" is used, by the PC/Player

but not with the second one

#1: Players able to "write" new names over their PCs. Names over PCs is totally OOC. By being able to rewrite them, it establishes a new paradigm about what "truth" is inherent in this OOC device. Why is the new system concerned with actually disguising and OOC aspect of the game? To me, it does not make sense, and furthermore, seems that it gives Players an immediate and likely ability to be arse hats at best, and at worst, just dishonest toward their community of Players.

Wouldnt you say that with good sportmanship and more "balanced DCs" the new system can work?

[Steve]

Well M3nt, related to the first quote, our toons' names are "stuck" over their heads, a previously accepted Engine limitation. So in order to be "in disguise," we had to trust and go along with another Player, to "play out" the RP...if we were willing. That is—or isn't—good sportsmanship.

The second quote is a device used to intentionally fool or undermine any sportsmanship, at all, good of bad. It is a switch, turned on or off, with an excuse built in to the Feature to say "cause it floats over my toon's head, it is true...at least until your Skill package can "see" through it."

Yeah, I don't like it cause it allows Players to push mechanics on each other, which I see slightly undermines the Server Rule of "only DMs can require Skill roles between Players." (though that Rule could be amended to say "...unless 2 Players mutually agree to accept self-imposed DCs"...but I think that is already done, imho).

Essentially, as I see it, it is an argument for Player RP over Engine mechanics. I guess, depending on who you are, as a RL person, one or the other will appeal to you.

For me, "balanced DCs" would have to be a total made by a combination of factors: environment (distraction of other NPCs in area, for example), skill in Disguise, skill of Bluff, lighting (environmental), time of/for observation, level/degree of interaction between PCs/NPCs, quality of the physical aspects of the disguise, and most important: degree in which the disguised is trying to change their appearance (as well, their manner of speech, accents, physical limitations, etc.).

Unless Ras has been working on an A.I. program about as awesome as those BG robots called DMs...well, I say it is rather UNLIKELY any balance can be made!!!

[Steve]

I guess I need to bump this. Mainly because none from the DM Team or the Dev Team jumped in, to discuss with us Concerned Players the pros and cons of this YUGE Change, that not only effects the mechanics we all know and love are used to, but Role-Play...and in a BIG WAY.

[Grimdark Hitman]

As a player that played a disguised character for at least six months successfully and wrote two articles under this moniker: Dave Counterpunch (the suggestion OOCly to disguise myself was recommended by thids when I told him I didn't want to create an alt)

I am a bit nauseous every time the subject of disguises come back (for YUUGE positive/negative first-hand experiences tied to it) and I see the RP paltry direction it is headed. It was ideally supposed to be an avenue of RP that falls into the realm of "extra credit"-- you sort of put this on your track record or resume so to speak.

So when a DM picks it up, they know they're dealing with a dedicated roleplayer. This current system promotes a numerical-based game and suddenly the RP aspect of it is tarnished. I also never liked the idea of once you regularly socialize with someone undisguised you can see through their disguise after the first or second meeting. So this isn't entirely the DEV team's fault, Steve knows my opinion on this, and I am truly not saying it to be contentious, and glad he brought up the issue. I've heard so many mechanical meltdowns surging in everyone's builds, and I think the update should be overhauled (I first-hand saw lockonnow having a problem with spell-casting in the wyvern canyon), perhaps put in slowly over time, and perhaps some of it is snipped away entirely.

The ranged touch attacks are also problematic, and not only Rhifox elicited such.

I appreciate the solid skills implemented, and pommel strike seems interesting (but not sure if it should be a free feat). A resolute response from the DEV team would be undoubtedly great (and the gods bless you), and I am thrilled to endorse an overhaul of this update. Especially with the disguises, I foresee situations where more dishonest players will be purposefully avoiding high-skilled characters to preserve their disguise. Thank you, I reserve back the balance of my time, to my colleagues on the House of Representatives, and the Senate. Excuse me, I have something of prestige to do, now.