On the value of Lore - how many skill points to have?

[Hoihe]

Seeing as Lore was split into sub categories, it becomes much more important to solidify just what we consider an expert, a layman and a master in lore. I would like for us to agree on what we consider what, so that people can more easily decide how many points they should invest into say, Nature, for it to be appropriate for their ranger OR Gondite scholar (since Nature covers alchemy, too!)

Seeing as we've went towards PnP, I propose sticking to the PnP definitions of mastery levels.

Check
Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm


And thus, I propose:

• 0-4 You have about 50% chance of answering really easy questions, a little more if you are invested.
• 5-9 You have about 50% chance of answering a basic question, when more invested you are likely to expand upon very easy questions.
• 10-14 Very easy questions are no longer a challenge, it's almost guaranteed you'll give a more detailed account than requested. Even basic questions are more often not answered by you, with an 50% chance of you providing some extra, peripherical information. No longer is answering hard questions a matter of lucky memorization, you now have a pool to draw answers from to a point.
• 15-19 You know the answer to all the basic questions in your chosen field of study without failure, and will easily go into the highest levels of debate about top of the line research. Still, answering the hardest questions on what has been written is not a guarantee
• 20-24 An authority in your field, you know all the practicalities needed to understand what you are working with. The only questions you cannot quickly answer are those perused by the best, the most obscure or groundbreaking.
• 25+ You are the one asking the questions the Masters stop and think about. People with this level of investment are likely to be counted amongst the highest of magical researchers, High Rangers, High Priests.

For very easy/basic/hard/very hard consider the following:

Someone with 0 investment and average intelligence will:

Have 50% chance of answering very easy questions
Have 25% chance answering basic questions
Have 5% chance answering hard questions.
Have 0% chance answering hard+ questions.

Basically when trying to spread one's own skill points, one needs to keep the above chances in mind.






Basically all I'm trying to make a point about is: You don't need all 33 skill points invested into the Lore skill for your character to have any valuable insight about it.

[Bobthehero]

I keep it at about uh... 10ish, on Lotrik, but I play it as him knowing a lot of things on a very focused subject, mainly sword fighting and maintenance, rather than having a smaller amount of general knowledge.

[Hoihe]

I guess it would either be History or Local for him now, if seeing it as a swordsmanship tradition.

[Tsidkenu]

Someone with 0 investment and average intelligence will:

Have 50% chance of answering very easy questions
Have 25% chance answering basic questions
Have 5% chance answering hard questions.
Have 0% chance answering hard+ questions.

Basically when trying to spread one's own skill points, one needs to keep the above chances in mind.

Untrained
An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

If you have no ranks in a knowledge skill, you cannot answer questions beyond the Easy (DC 10) difficulty. Even then you must still pass a DC 10 intelligence check.

[Rhifox]

A layman has 0 points. Even a single point in a skill represents a dedication to that specific ability.

Common knowledge is DC 10 and lower. Ergo having 10 points in a knowledge skill means you can more or less answer off-hand most any common aspect of that particular area. With 10 points you can also answer a large amount of more difficult questions and a handful of really really hard ones, but not quite as reliably.

So...

5: You've put some effort into this area of knowledge. I'd equate this to a relatively good education.
10: You're dedicated to this area of knowledge. In your local community you are the expert in this field.
15: You're not just an expert, this is an area of knowledge that you have dedicated your life to. You are probably a full-time scholar and have spent decades in research and study.
20+: You are among the most knowledgeable minds in the world in this area. People from the other side of the continent might seek you out to answer questions that very few people in the world can answer.

[Dagesh]

I like it. It's hard to say overall since skill points aren't always readily available to many which makes those with high ranks much more welcome in scholarly circles. Interesting indeed.

[Selande]

Always felt weird to me that 20+ would put you as the worlds foremost source of expertise.
Especially given that you're rolling a D20 as well...

We have casters on the server with enough bonus intelligence mod to qualify them as well versed in a Lore category without ever really investing points in it.

And what does this do for bards? Their bonus to Lore probably dumps into Arcana...

[Tsidkenu]

Bardic Knowledge
A bard may make a special bardic knowledge check with a bonus equal to his bard level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. (If the bard has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), he gains a +2 bonus on this check.)

A successful bardic knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. A bard may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random.

• DC Type of Knowledge
  10 Common, known by at least a substantial minority of the local population.
  20 Uncommon but available, known by only a few people legends.
  25 Obscure, known by few, hard to come by.
  30 Extremely obscure, known by very few, possibly forgotten by most who once knew it, possibly known only by those who don’t understand the significance of the knowledge.

In other words it should be a bonus to Knowledge: Local; Knowledge: Arcana; Knowledge: Geography; Knowledge: History.

[Rhifox]

Always felt weird to me that 20+ would put you as the worlds foremost source of expertise.
Especially given that you're rolling a D20 as well...

Well, 20 points in a single skill means you are level 17 or above. At level 17, an adventurer (or an NPC with equivalent NPC class levels) is more or less supposed to be one of the most renowned people in the world.

Elminster and Szass Tam, both epic spellcasters and largely some of the most dominant people in that area, both have Knowledge: Arcana 20 (with +7/+6 Int modifier from Elm/Tam respectively for a total of 27 for Elm and 26 for Tam).

[Selande]

I meant it more like...

If I make a generic Int-based caster... I put one point into whatever Knowledges I can access and then just leave it alone.

Let's say I end up with +8 int mod.. That's already 9 knowledge, +4 from Greater Heroism (cuz why not) and whatever else magicky voodoo they can do to pump up the number, plus a D20. Take 10 on the D20 puts you solidly at 23 for your Knowledge check.

One point investment pretty much makes you an expert on many subjects.



I guess my point is that with a D20 involved, the DCs always seemed very low to me.

[Blackman D]

if DCs were high it would assume that only INT based classes could only ever be experts at something

ignore any INT based build and look at everyone else, then the DCs look fairly high in dnd terms for those that actually have to wait 15 levels to meet it without fail from a d20

INT obviously makes knowing things easy

[Boddynock]

Agree with BlackmanD. This server has a history of what I call DC inflation, in which 90% of the time the DC you have to beat in an event is in the 40s or 50s because it has to be arbitrarily high based on the highest possible PC roll instead of what makes sense, all in the name of "challenge". But not all characters have to be challenged by everything. It's okay for your super genius wizards to pretty much know every thing, they are bad at other things. It's ok for your lvl 30 dwarven defender to get hit wit a wave of necromantic energy and chuckle whilst people around him shrivel and die, he is bad at other things. Not every thing has to be a challenge for every player, and we need to stop balancing around the highest denominator. If we are making a move towards a more PNP based ruleset, make sure the DCs for things follow suite.

Edit: And then nerf favored souls and druids.

[Selande]

Oooookay. I'm fine with low DCs. 1 point into a knowledge and +4 from GH and +8 from bardy song aaaaand I think I can squeeze an easy 3 int mod somewhere.
Take ten.
26.

[Rhifox]

I meant it more like...

If I make a generic Int-based caster... I put one point into whatever Knowledges I can access and then just leave it alone.

Let's say I end up with +8 int mod.. That's already 9 knowledge, +4 from Greater Heroism (cuz why not) and whatever else magicky voodoo they can do to pump up the number, plus a D20. Take 10 on the D20 puts you solidly at 23 for your Knowledge check.

One point investment pretty much makes you an expert on many subjects.

With proper resting limitations, that Greater Heroism/other spell buffs aren't supposed to always be available.

And someone with +8 Int mod means they're near level 20 or above it. And with that much Int they are one of the most intelligent people in the world. They're more or less a professional scholar/lorekeeper class with genius-level intellect. So them knowing a lot of uncommon stuff about a lot of things doesn't seem like an issue to me.

[Selande]

I think most of the skill DCs and other such reference material for D&D is based on a lvl 20 cap.

We're lvl 30 here.

I think my bard can keep greater heroism running the entire duration the server will be up: reset to reset. Edit: Without resting.

The DCs should be 10 higher than quotes earlier. That at least nullifies the "take 10" advantage and makes skill-based or Int-based classes need more than one point to be exceptional at it.

Other classes would have to invest (not even that heavily imo) but they can still achieve expert status on subjects.