Master of Disguise description errors

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Steve
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Master of Disguise description errors

Unread post by Steve »

FYI, the new Custom description for this class has some errors:
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Master of Disguises
Master of Disguises[/size]

Master spies rarely work with others unless they are under cover. The special skills that serve them so well in the field ironically make them exceptional leaders, but a master spy's natural inclination toward secrecy pushes her away from limelight. Note that a master spy among adventurers may not intend to betray them; armed heroes provide excellent cover for a master spy's true mission, whether or not they know the spy's intent. They are skilled at infiltration, theft and assassination, and thus often must go undercover to avoid their identity being revealed. The spy can contribute utility, scouting, and/or fighting prowess to a party. They are extremely versatile and trained to expect the unexpected.

Class Requirements:

- BAB: +5
- Skills: Bluff 5, Disguise 5, Sense Motive 5.


Class Features:
- Hit Die: 6
- Base Attack Bonus: Medium.
- High Saves: Reflex, Will.
- Weapon Proficiencies: Masters of Disguises are proficient with simple weapons.
- Armor Proficiencies: Masters of Disguises are proficient with light armor.
- Skill Points: 6 + Int Modifier.
- Class Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Craft (alchemy, trap, weapon), Diplomacy, Disable Device, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Lore: Arcana, Lore: Dungeoneering, Lore: Local, Move Silently, Open Lock, Parry, Search, Set Trap, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Taunt, Tumble, and Use Magic Device.
- Spells per Day/Spells Known: Masters of Disguises do not cast spells or grant spell progression for other classes.

- Class Feats
1: Expert Disguiser
2:
3: Second Impression
4: Slippery Mind
5: Disguise Self (at will)

Abilities:

Expert Disguiser
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisites: Bluff 15, Second Impression
Specifics: You gain a +3 bonus on checks to detect or avoid detection of a disguise on account of your expertise.
Use: Automatic


Second Impression
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisites: Bluff 5
Specifics: If an observer sees through your disguise with a successful Spot check, you can (as an immediate action) attempt a Bluff check at a -5 penalty to convince him that he's mistaken. Use the observer's Spot check result as the DC for your Bluff check; if you succeed, the observer ignores the evidence of his own senses in favor of what your disguise attempts to show.
Use: Automatic


Slippery Mind
Type of feat: Class
Prerequisite:
Required for: None
Specifics: A character with this feature can wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If the character is affected by an enchantment and fails her saving throw, she can attempt her saving throw again. She only gets this one extra chance to succeed at her saving throw. If it fails as well, the spell’s effects occur normally.
Use: Automatic


Disguise Self
Type of feat: Class
Prerequisite:
Required for: None
Specifics: You magically alter your appearance. The caster decides what to disguise and may at any time remove the disguise. Unlike regular disguises the Disguise Other spell creates an illusion which can be detected and dispelled. The detection DC for the disguise is the spell's save DC - 10, raised up to your total DC depending on the target's disguise skill.
Use: Selected

1. Expert Disguiser feat has the prereq. of Second Impression, but...Second Impression comes at a later level. Unless, of course, these Feats are General Feats, and can be taken outside this class? (which would make the Class less interesting??)

Since I'm on the topic: if these ARE General feats—which they do seem to be—why would a Player choose this Class, when they could nab better AB or spell casting power, and still pick up these Feats?

2. Disguise Self feat description seems to be for the spell Disguise Other, and takes about CL...which I'm going to assume is impossible to make a calculation from?!? So can the real DC calculation be explained there?

Thanks.

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Re: Master of Disguise description errors

Unread post by chad878262 »

Steve wrote:1. Expert Disguiser feat has the prereq. of Second Impression, but...Second Impression comes at a later level. Unless, of course, these Feats are General Feats, and can be taken outside this class? (which would make the Class less interesting??)
Not sure, but I don't think these feats are available for anyone as general feats... Can't get in game right now, but I will run a test if I get some time and no one else confirms.
Steve wrote:2. Disguise Self feat description seems to be for the spell Disguise Other, and takes about CL...which I'm going to assume is impossible to make a calculation from?!? So can the real DC calculation be explained there?
Disguise Self Spell shares the description of the Disguise Other spell, probably just a copy / paste error. The spell does work and the nice thing is that by disguising with the spell no one can see through your disguise without true seeing and even then with true seeing they ALSO have to beat your disguise skill.
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Re: Master of Disguise description errors

Unread post by Steve »

chad878262 wrote: Disguise Self Spell shares the description of the Disguise Other spell, probably just a copy / paste error. The spell does work and the nice thing is that by disguising with the spell no one can see through your disguise without true seeing and even then with true seeing they ALSO have to beat your disguise skill.
Hmmm...is that another negative against taking the MoD PrC then? Because then, I would imagine, a Bard 26 / MoD 4 would be a more powerful disguiser (not a work, I know).

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Re: Master of Disguise description errors

Unread post by chad878262 »

Anything skill based is ALWAYS better as a Bard...sorry, them's the breaks mate. Of course it's better as Bard and yes, the 5th level is just giving you access to a spell that bards, wizards etc. also have access to. That said they don't get the MoD bonuses if they don't take the class and as it stands it's nearly impossible to disguise from a dedicated spotter so the spell is the better option since no one can run around with true sight up 24/7(or even if they can they don't always remember to).
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Re: Master of Disguise description errors

Unread post by Steve »

chad878262 wrote:... and as it stands it's nearly impossible to disguise from a dedicated spotter so the spell is the better option since no one can run around with true sight up 24/7(or even if they can they don't always remember to).
Another reason to not take the PrC?!? :shock:

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Re: Master of Disguise description errors

Unread post by chad878262 »

There is a discussion in QC where I have proposed some adjustments, but not all of QC has had the opportunity to test disguise as is yet (there is a lot to test!) Need to give them time so they can review my suggestions and provide feedback, change suggestions of their own, etc. I sincerely hope there WILL be a reason to take the PRC (or at least a reason to build a PC with max disguise skill!)

As with many other things with this release, WiP, comments and suggestions welcome, if you've had the time to play the PRC and with the disguise mechanic.
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Re: Master of Disguise description errors

Unread post by Steve »

It's really not enticing to try and use a PrC when you do not have a very good idea of how it is used or supported by both DMs and Players, as well, as you say, it is most likely impossible to "stand up" to Spot roles and "seeing" through a Disguise.

Not to mention, as was said before, you'll most likely need to hit lvl 30 before a toon has even a remote chance of being under disguise when the moment really counts.

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Re: Master of Disguise description errors

Unread post by chad878262 »

Steve wrote: it is most likely impossible to "stand up" to Spot roles and "seeing" through a Disguise.
Doesn't stop me or a few others from playing heavily focused stealth builds... It sucks to know that anyone can 'catch you' with very little focus on spot or, especially listen, but if that is the role you want to play then you can still have fun with it... Just have to give certain PC's a wide berth.
Steve wrote:Not to mention, as was said before, you'll most likely need to hit lvl 30 before a toon has even a remote chance of being under disguise when the moment really counts.
Not sure how this is different from any other skill or ability...
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Re: Master of Disguise description errors

Unread post by Steve »

Maybe it is just me, but MoD is a PrC to use against PCs, more than mobs. H/MS / stealth characters can be amazing against 99% of mobs.

Personally, the last thing I'm interested is trying to be a spy, then having your arse handed to you cause it's ridiculously easy to pierce a disguise.

Which is why, I might add, the previous Disguise Rules that were based on good sportsmanship were WAY better than one based on unbalanced mechanics.

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Re: Master of Disguise description errors

Unread post by chad878262 »

Steve wrote:Maybe it is just me, but MoD is a PrC to use against PCs, more than mobs. H/MS / stealth characters can be amazing against 99% of mobs.

Personally, the last thing I'm interested is trying to be a spy, then having your arse handed to you cause it's ridiculously easy to pierce a disguise.

Which is why, I might add, the previous Disguise Rules that were based on good sportsmanship were WAY better than one based on unbalanced mechanics.
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Re: Master of Disguise description errors

Unread post by Tsidkenu »

Just ran some tests with MoD.

Second Impression & Expert Disguiser are both General Feats that can be chosen if a character meets their requirements (5 Bluff for the former; 15 Bluff & Second Impression for the latter).

The MoD class, however, gains both of these feats for free at the appointed level (Expert Disguiser at 1st level, Second Impression at 3rd level) irregardless of the prerequisites. They may also cast the Disguise Self spell at will at 5th level.

The Disguise Self spell, however, does seem a bit buggy. I was testing with a level 8 Rogue/5 Mod/8 Assn (24 base ranks in Disguise +1 CHA) and I couldn't get a disguise DC past 3, despite the fact the base DC is the disguiser's HD + 10 (should have been min. DC 31).
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Re: Master of Disguise description errors

Unread post by Endelyon »

While we're on the topic, Second Impression doesn't work at all. Is this just a feat meant for use in DM events? It currently has no mechanical function that I can find.
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Re: Master of Disguise description errors

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And, since we're on the topic today...

1. Have Skill Focus: Sense Motive, SF: Disguise been added to BGTSCC? Plans to be added? What about Epic Skill Focus: Disguise?

2. Have Disguise skill bonuses been added to the RIG, or DM Loot Table? Do we need a volunteer to make them?

3. Though it might be PnP for Disguise to be overcome via Spot, I'd like to suggest that BGTSCC's Disguise DCs be this: Disguise Skill + 1/2 Perform versus 1/2 Spot + 1/2 Sense Motive + d20. Or another formula with a bit of complexity to it, since right now it seems to simple.

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Re: Master of Disguise description errors

Unread post by Duster47 »

Steve wrote:And, since we're on the topic today...

1. Have Skill Focus: Sense Motive, SF: Disguise been added to BGTSCC? Plans to be added? What about Epic Skill Focus: Disguise?
These are on the to-do list, along with adding Lore-Focus: 9-new lore (knowledge) categories.
Steve wrote:2. Have Disguise skill bonuses been added to the RIG, or DM Loot Table? Do we need a volunteer to make them?
No. This is future work. Able bodies can volunteer to offer their services behind the curtain. Subcontracting out some tasks would probably be overall helpful to Design Staff. :geek:
Steve wrote:3. Though it might be PnP for Disguise to be overcome via Spot, I'd like to suggest that BGTSCC's Disguise DCs be this: Disguise Skill + 1/2 Perform versus 1/2 Spot + 1/2 Sense Motive + d20. Or another formula with a bit of complexity to it, since right now it seems to simple.
Please hold suggestions/changes to formulas after we get the Framework stable and functional.
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Re: Master of Disguise description errors

Unread post by Steve »

Thanks Duster!

I could probably make up some Master of Disguise themed gear, if that is wanted.

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