Wildshaped Elementals Speaking Different Languages

[Flasmix]

As per Maecius's Request [ ] on making another thread for Elementals speaking more than one language, here it is. I've included a Poll to track results. I am reposting my post I made there which has direct links to the Wizards website about rules for speaking while in different forms.

Please back up any arguments you make with links to books or mechanics. If you are going to post and state your opinion, feel free to do so, but do not use it as a crutch for the debate.

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As per; http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp? ... /20040518a

You retain your ability to speak if your assumed form has that ability.

Speech is a natural ability (see Part One); however speech has a mental aspect (your brain's ability to handle language) and a physical aspect (working vocal apparatus). You have to have both to speak in an assumed form. Furthermore, your assumed form must be able to speak naturally. If you assume the form of a creature that cannot speak or use language during the normal course of its life, you still lose the ability to speak. This distinction doesn't often come up with the alter self spell (because it doesn't let you assume a form with a type different than your own), but it can with other polymorph effects.

What does this mean in terms of Elementals? To quote the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm); "Air elementals speak Auran, though they rarely choose to do so."

This clearly says that Air Elementals can speak Auran. As beings of the Plane of Air, they would not be visiting the Material Plane to learn Common. Auran is Common to them, so to speak. Due to the fact that they can speak, as per the ruling from Wizards of the Coast, should a Polymorphed Wizard or Wildshaped Druid assume Elemental Form, they would be able to speak any language they know due to their own 'Mental Aspect' and the physical form of the elemental already being able to speak a language.

If the chosen form cannot speak ANY language, then the chosen Polymorphed/Wildshaped form CANNOT speak either.


The Revisted Polymorph section went into some detail about Wildshaping Druids in Animal Form;

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp? ... /20060523a

A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)

[Boddynock]

Most of the facts presented for both sides can be found here: http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=52694 though I don't suggest continuing discussion in that thread.

I will, when I get a chance, go back and cut/paste my consolidated arguments from that thread in this post.

[Maximvs]

Your post fails to mention how languages are spoken, if Auran, for example, is a fantastic tongue of windy sounds with numerous dialects, like actual shifts in the wind or a human imitating sounds of the wind, or if it's just a common and boring, down to earth, english-like tongue, and if elementals, like an air elemental for example, can only speak it's native, outsider, fantastic tongue by shifting the wind, or if it has a magical mouth to speak any tongue it wants and thus dumb down these magical creatures to genasi-like levels, even though none has ever shown such ability in 200 + forgotten realm novels.

You need to update your thread question mate.

[Flasmix]

I would be happy to update the thread question if you are able to link me to either a sourcebook or a wizards post on this. I have posted a link which gives definitive proof that when Wildshaped into an Elemental, they can speak any language they know from the makers of the game.

I can link to a variety of other D&D Websites where people ask how they can speak as a Wildshaped Druid, noting that Elemental and Treant shape are high level options for speech but they seek low-mid level options.

All I ask of you, is to show me your references. Cite your sources.

[Boddynock]

Your post fails to mention how languages are spoken, if Auran, for example, is a fantastic tongue of windy sounds with numerous dialects, like actual shifts in the wind or a human imitating sounds of the wind, or if it's just a common and boring, down to earth, english-like tongue, and if elementals, like an air elemental for example, can only speak it's native, outsider, fantastic tongue by shifting the wind, or if it has a magical mouth to speak any tongue it wants and thus dumb down these magical creatures to genasi-like levels, even though none has ever shown such ability in 200 + forgotten realm novels.

You need to update your thread question mate.

I am going to answer this in a manner that displays the ridiculousness of asking for proof of something that cannot be proven, and to display that such a tactic is not a valid debate strategy.

Maximvs, using D&D sourcebooks, prove to me that humans, or elves, or dwarves, or dragons, or treants, or any number of fantasical creatures in D&D produce speach using vocal chords as we understand them. You can't do it, because WotC doesn't address the issue. Asking for evidence you know doesn't exist, and then insisting that the lack of that evidence somehow proves something is a logical fallacy. A lack of evidence, by definition, is not capable of proving something. Therefore, to make the claim that these beings are incapable of speaking any language they know, you must provide actual proof that they are incapable, you can't rely on lack of anything to make your point, that isn't how debating works.

You'll notice that Flasmix actually cited a source, provided the text, and even a link as physical evidence of his claim. What he did NOT do was simply claim that your inability to prove elementals can't speak common means he wins, and you don't get to do that either.

[Maximvs]

It is, indeed, not directly quoted. Other tongues have multiple dialect, such as draconic and Infernal. Not quoted doesn't mean you're right or the dm's are right. It means that the DM's get to fill the blanks. While I'm being sarcastic, I believe my assertion of the situation is correct. The real question is... Do you consider elemental outsiders and their language to be fantastic and alien or boring, English-like. It is what's really at stake here.

[Flasmix]

It should also be noted that they are MAGICAL creatures who do not have lungs, lips or a tongue but can still speak. We cannot apply real-world physics to these scenarios because it leads to many other questions about other species;
1) How can a Ghost talk if it's a spirit and can't breathe in air?
2) How can a Lich cast spells with verbal components since its lungs have decayed?
3) How can a Demi-Lich cast spells with verbal and somantic components if it's simply a floating skull?

The answer is accepting that there are 'magical reasons' for things.

[Boddynock]

It is, indeed, not directly quoted. Other tongues have multiple dialect, such as draconic and Infernal. Not quoted doesn't mean you're right or the dm's are right. It means that the DM's get to fill the blanks. While I'm being sarcastic, I believe my assertion of the situation is correct. The real question is... Do you consider elemental outsiders and their language to be fantastic and alien or boring, English-like. It is what's really at stake here.

My opinion is irrelevant to what the rules actually say, get some sources that actually support you, provide them, cite them, and let readers vote; because at this point you are no longer contributing to a constructive discussion of ideas, you are just rehashing stuff we have already discussed at length in the other thread and have added nothing new.

[Maximvs]

Magic is often the answer, but now always. Sometimes, things are... ALIEN. As in incomprehensible. Slapping a common, English language to such an alien entity sure is a boring thing to do.

Even if you and your gnome friend pull out obscure, two lines of DnD lore and law from the deepest recess of some long forgotten game shop full of spider webs that was really just trying to milk some money from powergamers before shifting to the fourth edition, it doesn't change the fact that this DM ruling is the most fun, fantastic and marvelous option of the two.

[Flasmix]

It sounds like the reason you don't want it changed is merely because it would take away a bit of the mystery and 'fantasy' from the server. Which again, is an opinion, not backed by any bits of lore or mechanics.

D&D 5E simplified it even more and added a language known as 'Primordial'

Some of these languages are actually families of languages with many dialects. For example, the Primordial language includes the Auran, Aquan, Ignan, and Terran dialects, one for each of the four elemental planes. Creatures that speak different dialects of the same language can communicate with one another.

As per 5E, the Elementals can communicate with each other as it's merely different dialects. (Like French, Canadian-French, Swiss-French, etc)

[WookieWarlord]

So as, my evidence of an Orglash elemental speaking common was swiftly dismissed, I ashamedly regret to say that I dug deeper, downloaded files and programs from very old websites and unearthed something more.

From the depths of the internet, featured in advanced dungeons and dragons volume #2: The Bounty Seekers Of Manshaka, Behold -
Jogaoh, summoned and trapped into the form of a dwarf by a wizard, later manages to free himself and return to his fire elemental shape, and then continues to speak in common.

Hidden: show

Indeed given the servers timeline, this 'dwarven' smith is in fact somewhere on the sword coast right now, forging magic items and biding his time for freedom in a few more years.

I'm almost embarrased to go to much lengths since I'm not particularly invested in the topic, just bored.

[Maximvs]

Wow. That's sad but ok. Little obscure things can pile up I guess >.>

[WookieWarlord]

Wow. That's sad but ok. Little obscure things can pile up I guess >.>

"Show me your evidence. Where's your evidence. Oh you have evidence? That's sad..."

[Boddynock]

Wow. That's sad but ok. Little obscure things can pile up I guess >.>

That may be obscure, but it is NOT little, it is a direct example of what has been asked for, it is direct proof of a fire elemental speaking common. You cannot deny or dismiss it because you do not like it.

At this point I am requesting a moderator take action, as your behavior constitutes trolling.

[Maximvs]

I said sad but ok. Although, when you start baldur's gate 2, you meet talking clay golems, when the monster manual says they can't speak lul. Is there any indication in the comic that the heroes understand what he's saying? Can you provide the next page ?